Small Questions on ADWD II

[corbon]

From the time Mance Ryder left the NW - what evidence do we have that the others were around before then?

Edit: (Other than 8000 years ago...) - Only evidence i can see is the harsh winters but other than that ... nothing...

It seems unlikely that Ygritte would get so upset over ghosts for nothing... she knows a lot and constantly reminds Jon of this "you know nothing Jon Snow"... to me this seems a pretty plain explanation of how the others were released... where they came from originally i have no idea (some bungled or lost understanding of Ice magic i would guess) but plainly Mance's fault...?

Ygritte doesn't know squat. She is a lowly wildling with few connections, little or no education and is probably illiterate. She can lord it over Jon about 'knowing' because she is culturally and geographically 'at home' where he is not.

The Wildlings are already forced together and under attack by others and/or wights (which we have seen to be directly related to others) before they start digging up the graves.

The reason they started digging up the graves was looking for the Horn of Joramund which Mance wanted to use as a bargaining chip to make the NW let the wildlings past the wall to safety. He needed to do this because the wildlings had already tried fighting off the Others and Wights but merely seen an increase in wights as a result.

As more circumstantial evidence, the Starks (sharing a common heritage and religion with the wildlings) describe their tombs as preventing the spirits of the dead from roaming. Spirits and Shades are more or less synonyms. The inference, is that in this (shared) cultural context the belief is that formal graves/tombs/burial chambers etc serve a purpose (preventing the unhappy dead from roaming the land and harassing the living) and desecrating them breaks that purpose - thus, by cultural belief (there is not the slightest evidence of truth of this in the text) releasing the vengeful spirits/shades of the dead.

It is about as clear as it can be without literally saying in the text "the others are not the shades", that the half-a-hundred shades Ygritte believes may have been released have nothing to do with the others.

It is highly probable that no shades were actually released - the cultural belief of such being a fairly standard historical practice used to deter grave robbing. Ygritte is just parroting cultural superstition, nothing more. She doesn't even subscribe any actual effect to the supposedly released shades!

[fassreiter]

Exactly.

What's more, why should Ygritte refer to the Others as 'shades' all of a sudden? And if GRRM wanted to go somewhere from here, he would have repeated this statement in Jon's head over and over, it's just what he does.

By the way, has anyone noticed: Jon took the words for his speech in Mole's Town almost directly from what Mance had said to him before the battle ('First they kill you, then they send your dead against you" etc.). If he had suspected that Ygritte had referred to the Others with her shades, he would have noticed und remembered. But then, maybe he just has a good memory for awesome speeches... ;)

[DragonSpawn]

What's more, why should Ygritte refer to the Others as 'shades' all of a sudden?

... because she knows better than to just call them "Others"... ? They were clearly once men... but are now ghost-like, pale as glass and float around in a cold icy mist, and turn living things into zombies... What is a shade if not a ghost or spirit of a man that lived once before?

But thanks anyway for the responses... i'm trying to find a best-fit guess as to why the Others suddenly re-surfaced after 8000 years...

They came before the Dragons so something else had to happen... i was toying with the idea that:

1.The wildlings accidentally released the Others

2.When Aerys lost the throne the others saw their chance to attack...

3.They were called by someone... (possibly with a horn or some magic spell)

4.The wall wasn't getting enough blood sacrafices...

5. ... Other unknown reason....

I have ranked them in order of likelyhood... 2. was my original #1 ... since this discussion i think i will put it back to top of my list...

Thanks for the help :)

[corbon]

... because she knows better than to just call them "Others"... ?

Why does she have special knowledge that no one else has? Mance Rayder certainly knows and understands the difference, yet a young girl with no connections, not training, no authority, no special skills or anything 'knows' stuff that no one else does?

Fact is, you are trying to invent something out of nothing based on a single misunderstood quote and a lot of inaccurate information.

They were clearly once men...

There is no clearly about it.

I don't think it is even likely, let alone clear, that they were once men (though I wouldn't claim it to be impossible).

They are pretty much unknown but we have a little information.

The Others appear as tall, gaunt humanoids with chalk white skin and eyes of blue so deep it burns like fire. They wear reflective armor that shifts in color with every step, and wield thin crystal swords that said to be so cold as to shatter ordinary steel. They have their own strange language, and their voices sound like the cracking of ice.

Nothing there says that they were once men any more than Tolkien's elves, or orcs, were once men.

I think the likelihood that they are simply a different race, like CotF, Giants, Elves, Orcs, etc so far outstrips any likelihood that they were once men that it simply isn't credible without some new evidence.

We have rumour that Craster sacrificed his male children to them, but the source is hardly credible for details. Gilly is highly unlikely to know more than speculation among the wives, none of which are likely to have actually witnessed anything.

We have an old tale that the 13th Commander of the NW was seduced by an Other Princess, or something like that, which might suggest they are physiologically compatible with humans. But after nearly 8000 years the details again are extremely unreliable, and even those who were 'there' at the time might have merely been following what they understood - a 'marriage' would be an ideal cover for a sorcerous control that required close proximity or connection.

but are now ghost-like, pale as glass and float around in a cold icy mist, and turn living things into zombies... What is a shade if not a ghost or spirit of a man that lived once before?

Not ghostlike in any way.

Pale as glass, close enough.

There is nothing about them floating around in a mist. The wildlings believe, and we seem to have seen thus far, that they come preceded by extreme cold, including human breath instantly misting, but there is nothing about the Others floating within a mist.

They do appear to turn their victims, into zombie like creatures after killing them.

But generally speaking, the picture you describe seems to be from some other fantasy, not ASoIaF.

But thanks anyway for the responses... i'm trying to find a best-fit guess as to why the Others suddenly re-surfaced after 8000 years... They came before the Dragons so something else had to happen... i was toying with the idea that: 1.The wildlings accidentally released the Others 2.When Aerys lost the throne the others saw their chance to attack... 3.They were called by someone... (possibly with a horn or some magic spell) 4.The wall wasn't getting enough blood sacrafices... 5. ... Other unknown reason.... I have ranked them in order of likelyhood... 2. was my original #1 ... since this discussion i think i will put it back to top of my list... Thanks for the help :)

The only one that looks even remotely credible is 5. Other unknown reason, although I guess 3 is a possibility.

1 is clearly wrong according to information from the books.

2 doesn't make sense - how would they have knowledge or understanding, of what is happening in the summer lands of westeros? And why would Aerys' death make any difference anyway? The dragons were long gone before him.

3 is possible, though who and why? Basically it s 100% speculative with no textual evidence supplyig an clues to who or why anyone would do such a thing.

4 there isn't any evidence that the wall ever required, or had, blood sacrifices, so ... what?!?

The simple fact is we know so little about them that we can't even speculate usefully about why they have returned now, except that if they hadn't returned at this time we probably wouldn't be reading ASoIaF. We'd basically be reading more Dunk and Egg sort of stuff.

Or in other words, to have a 'best fit guess' you need at least 3 data points.

I'm not sure we have any that we know are relevant.

[Tormund the Hornblower]

So i was re-reading Asha's last chapter of Dance where the Bravossi from the Iron Bank arrives with two unknown black brothers, Tris Botley and other iron men. Then of course Theon and Jeyne Poole, but anyway Asha's men were freed because Lady Glover was offered a ransom for their freedom and she accepted in the name of the king. The Bravossi paid the ransom because he needed a strong escort and Lady Glover needed less mouths and more money for food off course but Stannis had imprisoned those Ironmen and now they are free. I mean it kinda doesnt make sense unless somehow with Theon, Asha and Tris Botley Stannis gets support from some of the Iron Men??

So I was just wondering what peoples thoughts on this were???

[Tormund the Hornblower]

Has it been discussed that Benjen Stark/(coldhands?) could possiblly be the last hero??? The last hero went out in search of the Children of the Forest but was turned wight by the others only then to be saved by the COTF in the end. Benjen Stark originally left on aranging to find Raymar Royce and othe missing rangers but came to find the others have returned so he went to look for the COTF and met the same fate as the Last Hero. So Benjen is coldhands and they are the last hero working with the children to help defeat the others and return the armys of men that have been lost to the others as wights now.

I believe if this prophecy is gonna be fullfilled by a character in the story which i believe it will, its between Bran, Benjen/Coldhands (assuming they are the same person), or Bloodraven.

Bloodraven seems very likely since he has been north of the wall on his weirwood throne in the childrens magical cave for a long long time. We don't know why BR left the watch where he became Lord Commander but I'd think it would have to do something with COTF. But then he might not be cause it seems as though to me he came to learn from the children about greenseeing, skinchanging and magic. He was known for being a soucerer while serving as hand and he possiblly wanted to become more powerful and to do so he seeked out the COTF. He then came to see the return of the others through the trees and went to seek out the last hero whether it be Bran who is the strongest candiate possibly or Benjen Stark assuming he is Coldhands.

My problem with Bran is that the prophecy says the last hero went to seek the COTF, which Bran was seeking the three-eyed crow although he did find the children. But even though his real intentions were to find the TEC and not the children he always seemed to be fascinated with them, so it might not be that important to the prophecy cause in the end he did find them.

There's not much evidence for Benjen except that like the last hero he was lost and he could possibly this coldhands who was most likely a wight who the children saved like the last hero and now he is trying to help fight the others and save the armies of men lost to the others.

[Dragonfish]

The last hero went out in search of the Children of the Forest but was turned wight by the others only then to be saved by the COTF in the end.

Wait, where does it say this? I don't remember reading that the Last Hero was turned into a wight by the Others.

[Tormund the Hornblower]

Im pretty sure they did. The chapter after Bran has awkoken from his coma in AGOT, where Old Nan is telling Bran the story about the coming of the others and where we hear about the last hero Bran is dining with the black brothers who accompanied Tyrion south from the wall and Yoren tells them that their uncle Benjen has gone missing. Yoren is objecting to the fact that Benjen will come back and is dead, that " Good men have gone into those woods before, and never come out." Next paragraph all Bran could think about was Old Nans story of the others and the last hero hounded through the white woods by dead men and spiders, and he became scared until he remebered the end of that story (although when Old Nan is telling it to Bran she is cut off by Maester Luwin when he walks into the room) and said "the children will help him," he blurted "the children of the forest!"

[Tormund the Hornblower]

AGOT Bran pg. 236 in my book

[Tormund the Hornblower]

I could be wrong about him being turned into a wight and then ended up being saved by the COTF like coldhands, but that seems most likely from the story told by old Nan cause it sounds like the others caught him. Maybe the children just saved him right before the others could turn him into one of their wights, but either way the COTF saved him and thats where i speculate Coldhands could possibly be the last hero.

[Dragonfish]

I could be wrong about him being turned into a wight and then ended up being saved by the COTF like coldhands, but that seems most likely from the story told by old Nan cause it sounds like the others caught him. Maybe the children just saved him right before the others could turn him into one of their wights, but either way the COTF saved him and thats where i speculate Coldhands could possibly be the last hero.

I think it's just as likely that the Last Hero was simply saved at the last minute. That's a pretty common device when telling suspenseful stories.

[Tormund the Hornblower]

I agree with that, I just wonder what happened with the last hero after he was saved and if the children's magic were able to win back the armies of men that were lost to the others.

[CrypticWeirwood]

The dragon are said to be fire made flesh.

Are Others then to be frost made flesh?

[Smallfolkperson]

The dragon are said to be fire made flesh.

Are Others then to be frost made flesh?

Not a bad theory - but the Others can reanimate the dead and, apparently, bring the cold with them. The dragons do not do those things, although they have other advantages (size, flight, fire). So it could be possible.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Not a bad theory - but the Others can reanimate the dead and, apparently, bring the cold with them. The dragons do not do those things, although they have other advantages (size, flight, fire). So it could be possible.

It could be argued that the dragons bring fire with them.

[fassreiter]

The dragon are said to be fire made flesh.

Are Others then to be frost made flesh?

At least Stannis seems to think something similar, see ASOS:

Melisandre smiled. "Necromancy animates these wights, yet they are still only dead flesh. Steel and fire will serve for them. The ones you call the Others are something more." "Demons made of snow and ice and cold," said Stannis Baratheon. "The ancient enemy. The only enemy that matters."

[corbon]

At least Stannis seems to think something similar, see ASOS:

Stannis' only source of information is Mel though.

Doesn't mean he's wrong, but he is being manipulated by Mel and we don't yet know her background and motivations fully.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Where did Mance Rayder get his last name?

We're told he was a wildling child captured and raised by the Watch. They could have

1) known that Rayder was the actual name of his parents (though few wildlings seem to have last names), or they could have

2) given him Rayder as a kind of default name for "from beyond the wall" (like bastard names are the default names in a region), or he coud have

3) chosen the name himself, probably after his defection.

Do we know or have any indication or even speculation which is the case?

[CrypticWeirwood]

Where did Mance Rayder get his last name?

We're told he was a wildling child captured and raised by the Watch. They could have

1. known that Rayder was the actual name of his parents (though few wildlings seem to have last names),
   
2. or they could have given him Rayder as a kind of default name for “from beyond the wall” (like bastard names are the default names in a region),
   
3. or he could have chosen the name himself, probably after his defection.
   

Do we know or have any indication or even speculation which is the case?

Number 2 is the answer. From the Citadel:

• “Rayder” appears to be the last name given at the Wall for men who were wildling‐born but raised to the black (II: 558)
  

[fassreiter]

Number 2 is the answer. From the Citadel:

• “Rayder” appears to be the last name given at the Wall for men who were wildling‐born but raised to the black (II: 558)
  

Does anyone have that quote? I never knew that. Is it really in the books? I don't have them here right now.

I only know Mormont said he would prefer to take Craster's children to be raised for the Watch. Are there any more Rayders around, then? Funny.