Small Questions on ADWD II

[pixieil]

Nothing like that was described in the sack of Winterfell. Also that shouldn't have affected the pools and they don't get a mention that I recall, although I haven't re-read ADWD this week (lol) since that occurred to me, so maybe I just forgot it.

[Dragonfish]

Nothing like that was described in the sack of Winterfell. Also that shouldn't have affected the pools and they don't get a mention that I recall, although I haven't re-read ADWD this week (lol) since that occurred to me, so maybe I just forgot it.

We know that entire walls fell down during the sack. I don't see why the heat system couldn't have been damaged in the process.

[corbon]

We know that entire walls fell down during the sack. I don't see why the heat system couldn't have been damaged in the process.

While I agree that it is likely that the heating system was damaged during Winterfell's travails, the mischievous side of me insists on bringing up the possibility that the Ancient Dragon who provided the real heat source beneath winterfell is now gone, as seen by Bran through Summer. (I'd really like a cheeky emoticon there, but whatever crapness has happened to how the forum software interacts with my laptop, the emoticons are all gone.)

[ipsuel]

While I agree that it is likely that the heating system was damaged during Winterfell's travails, the mischievous side of me insists on bringing up the possibility that the Ancient Dragon who provided the real heat source beneath winterfell is now gone, as seen by Bran through Summer. (I'd really like a cheeky emoticon there, but whatever crapness has happened to how the forum software interacts with my laptop, the emoticons are all gone.)

This is exactly how I took it... Might be a GRRM red herring, or may turn out to be the case -- but either way, I think we were (somewhat) meant to link the two. :)

[CrypticWeirwood]

I'm going to get slammed for this...

How is it that this society has been around, with a modern agricultural means of survival for over 8000 years, but they haven't progressed past feudal times technology?

In other words, the real world had a modern agricultural system in about 1500 AD, and the luxuries of an agricultural system allowed for further education and technological advances. Westoros seems to have been using the same technology for the past 8000 years.

Why can't they advance?

You presuppose that feudal technology was at a level superior than that which came before it and inferior to that which came after it.

That isn't what happened.

In many ways, the ancients had far better technology than the medievals. Consider the Antikythera mechanism. The ancients did many things that the medievals had lost. The collapse of civilization saw the loss of much that was clever, and much that was learnèd.

[CrypticWeirwood]

- GRRM falls victim to the stability fallacy which has plagued the genre since Tolkien. I personally don't think so as the other points satisfy me, but of course it is a common fallacy in the genre.

No, you misunderstand. Limiting things only to the domains of Men, the Númenóreans were masters of technology. They built great things that their distant descendents were incapable of replicating. Tolkien does not portray stagnation, but rather decay. Things get worse over time.

Here ends the Silmarillion; and if it has passed from the high and the beautiful to darkness and ruin, that was of old the fate of Arda Marred; and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwë and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos.

It is remarkable how frequently shallow readers utterly misunderstand Tolkien, reading sweetness and light into a tale that is essentially depressing at its core. Even Galadriel fights the long defeat throughout the ages. There are no happy endings in Tolkien.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

I don't claim Tolkien's stability fallacy is the worst in the genre. But his world is full of empires lasting thousands and thousands of years with no more serious upheavals, conquests, wars or changes in rulership in them as real-world empires that last a few hundred years. Yes, instead of a terribly slow upwards curve, he even portrays a terribly slow downwards curve - but it's still surprisingly stable, or perhaps more accurately: Excepting the ends of ages, time moves at a much slower pace than it did in our world. With that terminology, I hope you'll stop accusing me of mistaking his world for a happy-sappy maigcal fairyland story? Cause I do take a little bit of offense at that, especially as I don't think I ever indicated that.

Of course, he has implemented mechanics that make stability in some points more feasible (e.g. increased life-spans make a dynasty spanning several millennia more believable) while many others that copied him wanted the epicness of his forever-and-ever-feel without introducing such backups. [/offtopic]

[Rune Targaryen]

It has been a long time since I read The Silmarillion, but, IIRC, the human society only truly begin at the start of the second age, and in this age it rises to it best (in numenor) and at the end of the second age Numenor falls, starting the decadence of humans, so, In my view the humans change a lot in Tolkien world, and only elfs maintain a slow level of decadency for thousands of years, but this is because elfs LIVE for thousands of years, so they are only a few generations past.

And in our (real) world there are some cultures that are static for hundreds of years, some tribes in Africa, and here in Brasil there are some Indians tribes that had no contact with the rest of the world and live the same way they lived for at least for 500 years.

[Sarge]

I'm going to get slammed for this...

How is it that this society has been around, with a modern agricultural means of survival for over 8000 years, but they haven't progressed past feudal times technology?

In other words, the real world had a modern agricultural system in about 1500 AD, and the luxuries of an agricultural system allowed for further education and technological advances. Westoros seems to have been using the same technology for the past 8000 years.

Why can't they advance?

They do, but your figure of 8000 years is wrong.

[gedo]

Do we know if Barristan was there when Aerys killed Rickard and Brandon Stark?

I recall Jamie in HBO said there were 100s of people (and knights) watching.

But I couldn't find any text to tell if Barristan was there or not. Is there?

[oath breaker]

Does anyone know if Alyn is still alive?

[Lady Stormheart]

Where is Rickon?

[corbon]

Does anyone know if Alyn is still alive?

He was listed among the dead by Tom of Sevenstreams at Sandor Clegane's trial.

Where is Rickon?

Before ADwD, no one knows.

Skagos

[oath breaker]

Thanks Corbon, shame about that he soundeda useful charachter. In response to gedo's question, in the tv series Ser Barristan says to Ned it was a terrible crime what the mad king did to his father which suggests that he may have been there to see it.

[leotyrell]

Hello, you people have got a great forum going here. This is my first post. I was wondering, in the last bran chapter in adwd, the last event he sees via the heart tree is that of man using a sickle to cut another man's throat while a woman watches over. Now this scene happened thousands of years ago, but do we know who these people are?

[Buckwheat]

Hello, you people have got a great forum going here. This is my first post. I was wondering, in the last bran chapter in adwd, the last event he sees via the heart tree is that of man using a sickle to cut another man's throat while a woman watches over. Now this scene happened thousands of years ago, but do we know who these people are?

I don't think we do. We only learn that the First Men apparently had executions / sacrifice ceremonies underneath heart trees. I don't even think it is important who exactly they are.

[jon rr stark]

Why is the Starks seem to have so few men themselves. Winterfell was left with 50 people and the wintertown deserted. All the other Northern lords have thousands at their disposal e.g Manderly circa 8000. All the southern Houses can boast thousands at the drop of a hat. But For what should be the oldest house the Starks have all gone, and the great fortress of Winterfell was left with about 200 when Robb marched South. Ned only took 50 of his household guard to KL. Ther are no Stark cousins about. It is said there may be some in the Vale. Even if Robb took all the available fighting men he could South there must have been plently left behind, as it seems the minor northern houses still all have some. Where are all the Stark smallfolk, the families of the troops. For a family and a house 8000 years old all trace of them and their holdings have vanished.

[It’s a me Daario]

Here is my theory about the Others, and I am basically seeing what you think, and where my flaws may lie, feel free to break it down and prove me wrong, I will not take offence

Ok, so we all want to know why the Others are back, and what clues could lead to it right? Brandon the Builder built the wall to protect us from them, correct? He also built Winterfell, and I am going to go out on a limb here and say that Winterfell was strategically located where it was as a second form of defence/failsafe for the wall.

Now hear me out.....

We know that the Winterfell castle and water are unusually warm in the winter considering the harsh cold.

We know that GRRM made a point to let us know that Winterfell's castle and walls are now colder then they normally would be(I think I read this anyways, if not then my theory is waaaaaay off)

We speculate that a dragon(stone??) could possible be the reason for the unlikely warmth in Winterfell. If not a dragon, it still is something magical that's focus is heat which would lead me to speculate that it would be useful against the Others.

so the coincidence that I picked up was that the Winterfell doesn't have that warmth like it's used to in the harsh tempature, which happens to be at the exact same time the Others are threatening. Out of 8000 years of warmth and no threat from the Others, the coincedence is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too great to not at least put up as a possibility that maybe that dragon is gone now.

Now, MAYBE, just maybe when Mance was in Winterfell, he learned this, and reported it to the Others, which gave them confidence to continue to keep on coming

Note that this last part is something i just thought of, and can see many holes as I'm typing it, but maybe it could spark some new thoughts in people anyways

let me know what you think

oh yeah, the reason Winterfell as a failsafe is that he built it around the dragon(or some other magic that gives off warmth which is the natural enemy of the Others)

[Dragonfish]

Here is my theory about the Others, and I am basically seeing what you think, and where my flaws may lie, feel free to break it down and prove me wrong, I will not take offence

This is a thread for small questions, not for offering up your theories for criticism. You should create your own thread for this sort of thing.

[jon rr stark]

Here is my theory about the Others, and I am basically seeing what you think, and where my flaws may lie, feel free to break it down and prove me wrong, I will not take offence

Ok, so we all want to know why the Others are back, and what clues could lead to it right? Brandon the Builder built the wall to protect us from them, correct? He also built Winterfell, and I am going to go out on a limb here and say that Winterfell was strategically located where it was as a second form of defence/failsafe for the wall.

Now hear me out.....

We know that the Winterfell castle and water are unusually warm in the winter considering the harsh cold.

We know that GRRM made a point to let us know that Winterfell's castle and walls are now colder then they normally would be(I think I read this anyways, if not then my theory is waaaaaay off)

We speculate that a dragon(stone??) could possible be the reason for the unlikely warmth in Winterfell. If not a dragon, it still is something magical that's focus is heat which would lead me to speculate that it would be useful against the Others.

so the coincidence that I picked up was that the Winterfell doesn't have that warmth like it's used to in the harsh tempature, which happens to be at the exact same time the Others are threatening. Out of 8000 years of warmth and no threat from the Others, the coincedence is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too great to not at least put up as a possibility that maybe that dragon is gone now.

Now, MAYBE, just maybe when Mance was in Winterfell, he learned this, and reported it to the Others, which gave them confidence to continue to keep on coming

Note that this last part is something i just thought of, and can see many holes as I'm typing it, but maybe it could spark some new thoughts in people anyways

let me know what you think

oh yeah, the reason Winterfell as a failsafe is that he built it around the dragon(or some other magic that gives off warmth which is the natural enemy of the Others)

Winterfell was built where it is because of the hot springs. The water from these are channeled through the walls and floors so the castle is warm (kinda like the roman baths). When Ramsey sacked winterfell this must have damaged the heating system as we know some towers collapsed so it reasonable to assume the plumbing is no longer in working order. Noone has suggested that the hot pools in the godswood are affected in any way.