Small Questions on ADWD II

[Tyrionthebest]

What interview was that?

If it was for Jon, I wouldn't be surprised if Mel was actually misinterpreting Jon's resurrection (not necessarily his destruction): if Jon is reborn in ice (as many have speculated), maybe the people sharpening their daggers are doing so to chip away at the ice, and thus, to free Jon from the ice cells where his body (possibly) is placed? (Didn't Melisandre's prophecy say she saw ice, and daggers in the dark? It's certainly dark in the ice cells.)

Here's my question: on at least two occasions we hear reference to "red wolves" in Essos. An elephant kills a pack of red wolves in the Meereen pits and Jon Connington is wearing the pelts of red wolves. So what exactly are red wolves? Are they supposed to be smaller than ordinary Westerosi wolves? Clearly they're going to be smaller than direwolves. But are they just supposed to be exactly like ordinary wolves, but with a reddish tinge? Since the Starks are so heavily associated with wolves, I was wondering what foreshadowing GRRM was giving us with the wolves of Essos, but I'm just not sure if Essos has the same general type of wolves as Westeros.

It's the interview that came after ADWD with James Hibberd on EW .

[Hardstone]

Where are Edric Dayne and Anguy the Archer? As they are listed separately from Lady Stoneheart's new band of outlaws in the Feast for Crow Appendix.

Mad Huntsman and Greenbeard went to the Reach with the Hound's Tourney winnings to buy food for the winter. The others are just extras.

[Gonzagylot00]

Will Bran be able to reproduce, or is his genitalia as useless as his legs?

[Tyrionthebest]

Will Bran be able to reproduce, or is his genitalia as useless as his legs?

Does it really matter now with him becoming a tree ?

[Gonzagylot00]

I don't know Tyrion, I don't think that there's any guarentee that Bran never gets to leave. It could be that Bloodraven just wants to train Bran, and then send him back to Winterfell.

I kind of think that Bloodraven means it literally when he says that Bran will fly, as in Bran will fly on Viserion or Rhaegal.

Also, from the Dunk and Egg stories, it seems like Bloodraven had planned for the rebirth of the dragons a century before the events of A Game of Thrones.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Will Bran be able to reproduce, or is his genitalia as useless as his legs?

I don't think we have definite evidence either way. Iirc Ned thinks at one point that Bran won't father children now that he's paralysed, but it's quite plausible that he just assumed that (maybe the assumption wasn't even that he isn't fully functional anymore but not marryable). Real-world-mechanics would leave both possibilities open.

[Nev yn]

I kind of think that Bloodraven means it literally when he says that Bran will fly...

This seems to be the only logical (but who says everything needs to be logical) conclusion based on what Bloodraven has explicitly stated to Bran. He told Bran that he'd never walk again, but he would fly. If he was referring to warging into crows and other winged beasts, then Bran hasn't stopped walking since his accident. He walks all the time in Summer's skin, and more recently in Hodors.

[Carter209]

Do the timelines from Feast and Dance match up so Marwyn is the red priest Moqorro that meets Victarion?

[tze]

Do the timelines from Feast and Dance match up so Marwyn is the red priest Moqorro that meets Victarion?

In the Appendix of ADWD, Moqorro is listed thusly:

In the section In Old Volantis,

people of Volantis:

—BENERRO, High Priest of R’hllor, the Lord of Light,

—his right hand, MOQORRO, a priest of R’hllor

I don't see how Marwyn, an Archmaester of the Citadel, could have managed to become the right hand to the High Priest of R'hllor in Volantis in such a short amount of time.

[Carter209]

Thanks. I didn't think he would have had enough time to get from Oldtown to Volantis anyway, but in Feast it mentions that Ironborn were spotted reaving out at sea. Made me think it might have been possible for him to get there in time.

[Sandrock]

Why does everyone on this forum seem to think Jon Snow is alive? I jsut finished A Dance of Dragons. I read all the books casually, not as if it was study material. Nor trying to figure out any mysteries. The R+L=J thread is quite an eye opener to me hehe.

But, Jon gets stabbed at least 4 times. One in the belly, which is a slow but almost certain death even with todays technology. His death would follow the deaths of other characters such as his. A good character being killed off right before a pivotal game changing moment. I was actually expecting him to die sooner because of this.

So, did I miss anything? Why is everyone so certain Jon is alive?

Also:

Can it be that Coldhands is Benjen Stark's wight?

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Why does everyone on this forum seem to think Jon Snow is alive?

Noone can be sure of course. But there are some reasons to think his survival plausible:

- From a storytelling perspective, it would be

-- quite an anticlimax if you let people wait for years for the resolution to the Jon-cliffhanger only to reveal: Oh, yeah, he did die btw. GRRM is the type of writer to defy expectations, but at least in usually, uncertain death with no body means almost certain survival.

-- quite an anticlimax to kill of a person most people think has been built up as one of the main protagonists from book 1. GRRM is the type of writer to defy such expectations (Ned I say more?), but still the usual assumption is that he wouldn't kill off Jon lightly, most likely rendering all the nice R+L=J stuff moot.

- There are some ways how he could survive:

-- Wounds in the belly are not certain death if the knife misses essential organs. Maybe he just regularly survives.

-- He could be healed by Mel. Remember how Moqorro was able to heal Victorion's wound much better than any maester could have.

-- He could die and be resurrected by Mel. Remember how the Lightning Lord Beric Dondarrion was resurrected by another Red Priest. Conveniently, that might fulfill the Azor Ahai rebirth prophecy. It might also provide grounds for leaving the Night's Watch without deserting (there have been controversial discussions about interpreting the vows in a way that temporary death frees you from them).

-- He could die, start his second life in Ghost (as skinchangers do) and then somehow come back into his body, either because it's resurrected by Mel, or by the Others (remember Coldhands? maybe something similar happened there) or by something else entirely. Conveniently, it would fit to Mel's vision in the fire of "a man, then a wolf, then a man again". The same other convenient stuff above also applies here.

None of these ways are surefire, by any means. But added together, they provide a basis that lets many people doubt Jon's death.

And even though aSoIaF is open handed with killing people off, there are a lot of fake-deaths that people do survive: Arya being axed by the Hound (but hey, he only used the flat!), Cat killed by the Red Wedding (but hey, she comes back as freaky zombie-woman), Bran thrown out of the windon by Jaime (but he's only badly crippled), Davos's head displayed over White Harbor (but hey, it's only a double) and probably a whole bunch of stuff I've forgotten. Of course, there are also scenes that might look like fake-deaths but which actually are mortal, e.g. Quentyn in Dance, so I don't blame you if you're not convinced.

[Sandrock]

Noone can be sure of course. But there are some reasons to think his survival plausible:

- From a storytelling perspective, it would be

-- quite an anticlimax if you let people wait for years for the resolution to the Jon-cliffhanger only to reveal: Oh, yeah, he did die btw. GRRM is the type of writer to defy expectations, but at least in usually, uncertain death with no body means almost certain survival.

Is it a cliffhanger though? Until I came here I was convinced JS was dead and that was the end of it. In fact I think the fact that this happens at the end of the book is sooner a reason to believe he IS in fact dead. Why would he let us wait so long for the 'surprise' that JS is in fact alive? Most of the 'surprise im alive' twists all happened within the same book I think? (Bran & Rickon. Caitlyn) Robb, Renly and Kevin Lannister died in similar ways and are dead too. We were never told about an actual body of those either iirc. Just hear-say. And different to Bran and Rickon, or Brianne. We read how he gets stabbed, four times, and loses conscious. While we were never told about the act of Bran and Rickon being killed. It skipped the whole event and only later were we told what happened. And Brianne was an obvious not-dead. Davos too. It was almost certain he wasn't dead because of the manner we were told.

The only dead I can compare to JS's and surviving would be Caitlyn and really, it's not Caitlyn that lives, but Stoneheart. In a sense they are two different persons.

Also, you have to ask, what purpose would it serve to kill Jon Snow and have him be resseructed? Do you think people are like to follow an Undead JS?

-- quite an anticlimax to kill of a person most people think has been built up as one of the main protagonists from book 1. GRRM is the type of writer to defy such expectations (Ned I say more?), but still the usual assumption is that he wouldn't kill off Jon lightly, most likely rendering all the nice R+L=J stuff moot.

Most people ON THIS FORUM! I read all the books in the last 2 months and never ever considered the R+L=J theory until I read the actual topic. I will agree there are some plausible points made. But a lot of it seems to be speculation-build-on-speculation. People are reading a lot into things. While I read the book I only saw Jon Snow as our eyes at the Wall. To tell the story of the Others. No other character exists that is interesting with enough depth to last as long as JS to tell us all that happened at the Wall. That, to me, was the purpose of JS. I never considered him as a main player in the Game of Thrones (not the book, but the game for the actual throne). That was always Danaerys for me. And now Aegon is a likely character for that as well.

And as I said above, would you think people want an undead JS on the Iron throne? :P

Even if he didn't die and was brought back to life. But was somehow saved. To what ends? He is still bound to the NW. Whenever somebody else was supposed dead but turned out alive it was a turn in their story arc. If JS turns out to be alive, I would find it bad writing if things just carry on as they were. As if he was just wounded, recovered and were back to right before he got stabbed.

I don't see the premise here. Especially not tied in with the R+L=J theory. For that to be the reason for him to still live he would have to be alive, alive, not undead alive :P

And even though aSoIaF is open handed with killing people off, there are a lot of fake-deaths that people do survive: Arya being axed by the Hound (but hey, he only used the flat!), Cat killed by the Red Wedding (but hey, she comes back as freaky zombie-woman), Bran thrown out of the windon by Jaime (but he's only badly crippled), Davos's head displayed over White Harbor (but hey, it's only a double) and probably a whole bunch of stuff I've forgotten. Of course, there are also scenes that might look like fake-deaths but which actually are mortal, e.g. Quentyn in Dance, so I don't blame you if you're not convinced.

I think all those deads you mention except Cat were obvious. It made no sense for the hound to just kill Arya at that point. It was more than obvious to me Arya was still alive when I read that. Cat as I said isn't really Cat anymore. And how many times can you use that 'trick'? I think doing the same to JS would be stale. Bran was clear to have survived right in the next chapter or something. Quentyn to me was an obvious death as well. He screamed. If it was a Dany-arc where he is fire resistant he wouldn't have screamed at the end ;)

To me this death fits in with all the other true-deaths. And makes sense from the point of the story too. Except for one thing:

Through whose eyes will the story of the Wall continue? There are no interesting characters left there. It could be Sam, but really, him being the only one POV of the Wall and the Others would seem a bit dull to me. There is Mel I guess. Or Stannis.

I understand though. Not saying I can't see it happen at all. But from the way some people were posting on here it seemed as if something was brought to light that pretty much confirmed JS was alive for certain. So you answered my q :)

Unrelated:

Did anyone else feel the story of Quentyn and Aegon/Young Griff were very similiar? I often confused the two stories and had to think what was what. Quentyn and Aegon both trying to get to Mereen, both after Dany's hand, both basically being Princes, both having two somewhat similar protectors (Griff/Duck) (Drink/Archibald). Both being connected with a sellsword company :P

Also:

When do people predict the next novel to be finished? 2013?

[Gonzagylot00]

Who killed Arthur Dayne? What did Howland Reed have to do with it?

This may not be known, I'm just curious to see what the people on this board think.

Dayne is an interesting character. It seems like he was the greatest knight of his time, and George RR Martin stated that when they were both in their prime, Dayne would have defeated Selmy, the other great knight in the story.

Jaime laments his death.

It all feels like the death of Dayne and Rhaegar frame the story through their abscence. Like the fact that those two are dead has a huge impact in framing the story, and certain characters remain depressed about their death.

[Sandrock]

Wasn't Arthur Dayne the sword of the morning and was killed by Ned Stark & Friends after the battle of the trident. One of which was Howland reed?

[Dragonfish]

Is it a cliffhanger though? Until I came here I was convinced JS was dead and that was the end of it.

Yes, it is a cliffhanger. George was asked in an interview with EW why he killed Jon Snow, and his answer was "You think he's dead, do you?" He then goes on to say, "I'm not going to address whether he's dead or not." He clearly intends for the outcome to be uncertain, which is pretty much the definition of a cliffhanger.

[Nev yn]

Who killed Arthur Dayne? What did Howland Reed have to do with it?

Reed was part of the seven people who took on the three Kingsguards guarding Lyanna (+1?) at the ToJ. The only one aside from Ned Stark that survived. Dayne was one of the Kingsguard.

It seems like he was the greatest knight of his time, and George RR Martin stated that when they were both in their prime, Dayne would have defeated Selmy, the other great knight in the story.

I really think too many people disregard what Martin put in text (through, I think it was Barristan?) that the whole "X would defeat Y" in a swordfight put in such unambiguous terms is a fallacy, with things like the position of the sun and hitting an unlucky patch of ground having just as much if not more effect as the marginal difference in their sword skill. In such a gritty world as ASoIaF, such ranking make much less sense than in, say, the WoT universe, where the author canonically has a list of who would beat who in a swordfight.

I'd also be curious if that quote includes them using comparable weaponry, since Dayne was well-known for having a magic sword.

[Ser Areo Hoteh]

I was wondering with the suspicion that Melisandre is in fact a glamour herself (her throat ruby serving the same fucntion as the ruby manacle did for the Rattleshirt-Mance Rayder disguise), do we have any clue about who she could be really? Or just an a character to be named later?

Also, technically from aFfC but what was the word that Brienne said to prevent herself being hanged by Stoneheart/Catelyn?

[The Dornishman's Wife]

I was wondering with the suspicion that Melisandre is in fact a glamour herself (her throat ruby serving the same fucntion as the ruby manacle did for the Rattleshirt-Mance Rayder disguise), do we have any clue about who she could be really? Or just an a character to be named later?

Her POV chapter suggests that her birth name was "Melony", she was sold into slavery and it's plausible that she was bought by a Red Temple, trained as priestess and renamed Melissandre, which is reasonably close to Melony. She still could wear a glamour to disguise the fact that she's old or ugly or disfigured, cause we know she's very conscious of the connection of appearance and power. I know of no reason to suppose she glamours herself to disguise having been to Westeros before, but it's of course possible.

Also, technically from aFfC but what was the word that Brienne said to prevent herself being hanged by Stoneheart/Catelyn?

It hasn't been revealed, but the straightforward interpretation is that whatever her word was, it indicated her willingness to comply with UnCat's command of delivering Jaime. Many people think that it's "Sword", as UnCat made a great deal about Brienne having to choose: Sword or Noose. Arguably, "Sword" would be the quickest way to communicate that she didn't want the noose after all, while "Jaime" could too easily be mistaken for her wanting to die with the name of her lover on her lips, "Sapphires" wouldn't mean anything to UnCat and "Okay", "Comply", "Stop" or even "Wait" might not be dramatic enough.

Of course, there are many alternatives imaginable, some of which even involve Brienne surviving despite not having indicated compliance with her word or even Brienne dying and having been resurrected.

[Walder_Frey]

"I'd also be curious if that quote includes them using comparable weaponry, since Dayne was well-known for having a magic sword."

Nevyn, you are a smarty pants! Part of Martin's quote was that Dayne would win if he was wieling Dawn, and it would be unpredictable if they had even weaponry. It bears out your point.

"I was wondering with the suspicion that Melisandre is in fact a glamour herself (her throat ruby serving the same fucntion as the ruby manacle did for the Rattleshirt-Mance Rayder disguise), do we have any clue about who she could be really? Or just an a character to be named later?"

Areo, that's a really neat idea, and I could see it coming to fruition. Melisandre seems too wise, and too powerful to be a 20-something year old witch.