Are there any Blackfyre heirs left?

[Kadence]

If Aegon was 4 I don't think Aegon's clothes would have fit Tyrion, but maybe he was super tall. Of course YG might have visited Illyrio's after being 4 - which is more likely than Tyrion wearing a 4 year old's clothes IMO.

Young Griff is Ilyrio and Serra's son? Where did he get those purple eyes (and established recessive gene in Martin gentics).

Serra had blue eyes and golden hair streaked with silver.[1] aDwD Tyrion II

Close enough to blue, and the blue/purple/indigo/lilac thing isn't perfectly consistent, like just real genetics. The hair has classic Targ/Blackfyre traits. I+S=A is quite likely and the favored theory currently.

But it assumes a heck of lot. As much as I like it and Kadence's post, it is assumption upon assumption.

The thing is that not only does it fit, not one other explanation we've seen is at all satisfactory. And this unravels everything in a super neat, entirely consistent manner.

But there is no evidence of Serra being a Blackfyre at all, so that makes all of this rather difficult.

Blackeart Toyne. The Golden Company. Some contracts are writ ink, others in blood.

That quote screams Blackfyre heir. It has no explanation other than Captain Toyne siding with the female line. Not nearly enough readers try to figure that quote out. It's pivotal. And Illyrio's blood=Targs explanation is quite weak. Especially when this other explanation fits vastly better.

She did have the look, but we are told she is from Lys.

As I said the whores from Lys quote having the Lys was probably very intentional foreshadowing by Martin about Serra. An in-joke almost.

Young Griff could still be her and Illyrio's son without her being a Blackfyre, and the plot still makes sense.

The plot makes no sense actually because Illyrio's motive is not explicable, in fact his actions are totally looney. Blackheart's actions aren't explicable either unless you fall for the line about choosing Targs (a fairly evident lie, which Illyrio's own quote to explain it reveals). If Illyrio is Aegon's father then Serra=Blackfyre heir pretty much. The two go together quite closely.

Because why all this backstory about the Blackfyres if they never become relevant to our storyline?

Indeed, they clearly will come on stage in a big way, it seems Martin thought of them before he wrote Game of Thrones (Bloodraven we know of, and I'm betting most of it). It's possible it will be in some other way but this is pretty late in the series for major new characters, and we have an obvious Blackfyre vessel in Aegon.

a) Where did we learn that the male side of the Blackfyre line had become extinct?

That one Illyrio conversation basically explains everyhing, yet in a way that almost no reader will understand by themselves. Almost Bond-villainesque but infinitely subtle. Almost no one will catch it.

I think Varys being a Targaryen or Blackfyre, or Serra's brother is all a bit too much. It could be true, but I am more convinced of the rest of the theory.

It is the thing I am least confident of, as I said. But it still seems more likely than not - it explain all the mysteries of Varys. Literally all of them.

[Kadence]

i really like the theory as well, but i'm wondering why they would bother to say YG is aegon if he is a blackfyre.

The "we are Blackfyre, hear us roar" thing has clearly failed. They have no support.

also, the blackfyre rivalry with the legitimate targs seems like it would make pretending to be a targ kind of distasteful for a new blackfyre heir.

Varys seems too practical for this. He doesn't have the ego to need a public gratification I think.

i also noted that the blackfyre history is almost entirely not even mentioned in the books. it's only in GRRM's short stories and the art anthology that they are discussed. i had no idea who the blackfyres were until i spent some time on the wiki. i know that doesn't mean that he won't eventually go there, but it also doesn't seem to be something that the characters are currently at all concerned about.

With the Golden Company around expect plenty of Blackfyre backstory in the next book.

The hints for Bloodraven=3EC existed in GoT (a raven comes with bloody wings just after Bran dreams of 3EC - someone actually mentioned this in pre-Dance 3EC=Bloodraven threads, unbelievably subtle stuff). Martin isn't worried about giving away everything early. Hell R+L=J hasn't even been solved yet! The man moves like a glacier with backstory :) I'm sure he'll go plenty more into the Blackfyre history before the big reveal. Which probably won't happen for a long time - likely not until Dany's people figure it out. Probably not in Winds of Winter.

[Irys]

You all concentrate on Serra so much and I think it´s entirely possible that she was a Blackfyre.

But imo Iyllrio could be one himself. A male descendent of the female line. He could have married Serra because she had valyrien blood or just because he liked her.

As for Varys: he could be in it just for power, gold, fun or his friendship with Illyrio.

Also I think it´s possible that their are no Blackfyres around. And Iyllrio and/or Serra and/or Varys are descendents of Bittesteel. After all he fouded the Golden Company and they still carry his head around to take it back to Westeros one day.

Bittesteel was the last person who had the sword "Blackfyre", which could be the one Illyrio meant to give Aegon in the cut scene.

This whole plan of taking the Iron Throne is so elaborate and patient and the Blackfyres with their failed rebellions just don´t seem to be like that.

[History of Westeros]

Maelys the Monstrous is called the 'last of the Blackfyre pretenders' more than once, and IIRC Connington explicitly thnks about the male line being extinct when he's at the Golden Company camp.

Illyrio points this out to Tyrion during the litter-ride. I don't think JC does.

[History of Westeros]

More clues I found after re-reading (listening, really) to the early Tyrion chapters:

When Haldon and Duck are introduced, Tyrion asks about the chests. Among other things, Illyrio mentions that he's included candied ginger which Aegon "was always fond of". Tyrion then notes Illyrio seems "oddly sad". (exact wording)

Then Illyrio gets slightly rattled when he hears that his plan for a farewell feast for Aegon can't happen because of time constraints. This may seem like nothing but Tyrion constantly tries to rattle Illyrio with subtle insults and pointed questions, but he never breaks from his jolly fat guy persona. Then Illyrio tells Haldon to apologize to the boy for his absence. Finally, Tyrion looks back at Illyrio as he's riding off. Illyrio is just standing there watching them, and Tyrion notes that his shoulders are slumped, a clear indication of sadness/disappointment.

In the earlier versions of the chapter, read at cons before being re-written before publication, Illyrio gets angry when told about the need for haste. Many things point to Illyrio having very strong feelings for Aegon. It could be that he's very fond of the boy, but given the # of subtle clues, I believe it goes beyond that.

Tyrion basically screams "hidden motives" at the reader during his second chapter "There is something here more valuable than coins" when hearing Illyrio's stories about why he's involved in all of this (not precise wording).

[History of Westeros]

You all concentrate on Serra so much and I think it´s entirely possible that she was a Blackfyre.

But imo Iyllrio could be one himself. A male descendent of the female line. He could have married Serra because she had valyrien blood or just because he liked her.

As for Varys: he could be in it just for power, gold, fun or his friendship with Illyrio.

Also I think it´s possible that their are no Blackfyres around. And Iyllrio and/or Serra and/or Varys are descendents of Bittesteel. After all he fouded the Golden Company and they still carry his head around to take it back to Westeros one day.

Bittesteel was the last person who had the sword "Blackfyre", which could be the one Illyrio meant to give Aegon in the cut scene.

This whole plan of taking the Iron Throne is so elaborate and patient and the Blackfyres with their failed rebellions just don´t seem to be like that.

The timeline doesn't work for Illyrio to be a son of Maelys, and since he himself says the male Blackfyre line is extinct, it's probably true... and probably a clue that the female line is *not* extinct. Serra being Maelys's daughter fits perfectly tho, I think. Barristan was in his early twenties when he slew Maelys, so it's been ~40 years since his death. Aegon is ~16, so Serra having him when she was in her early twenties fits.

Your point that one or more of the players could be a descendant of Bittersteel himself is interesting..

[Sand Flower in the Snow]

A Blackfyre Rising is coming. The Mummer's Dragon is on the move.

(I think I need sleep, I spend way too much time lately reading this forum)

[Irys]

I agree Illyrio is not Maelys son, but he could be from the FEMALE line of the Blackfyres.

So I won´t rule him out as one of them.

[Calibandar]

Azizal

I re-read the second Tyrion chapter myself after reading this thread, and all of what you posted there stood out for me as well. This theory seems very likely now.

[Kadence]

You all concentrate on Serra so much and I think it´s entirely possible that she was a Blackfyre.

But imo Iyllrio could be one himself. A male descendent of the female line. He could have married Serra because she had valyrien blood or just because he liked her.

Unlikely because Serra had the look. Also she seems to be of importance, and there's not much else to make her important. The subtext is strong for Serra being Blackfyre heiress. Nothing for Illyrio.

Also I doubt Serra and Varys both originally being from Lys is a coincidence.

[Sand Flower in the Snow]

Also I doubt Serra and Varys both originally being from Lys is a coincidence.

I like the thought of a twist that reveals Serra and Varys are brother and sister or related in some way. In the confused world located in my brain, this would explain why Varys and Illyrio are partners in crime. They are trying to honor the memory of a sister and wife.

[Kadence]

Yes, I had theorized brother/sister even before I learned Varys was from Lys (him being from Myr was the biggest hole in my theory). It would complete a full explanation of Varys' motives.

Even if they aren't related, it seems likely Varys introduced them and did the matchmaking.

[Wouter]

Unlikely because Serra had the look. Also she seems to be of importance, and there's not much else to make her important. The subtext is strong for Serra being Blackfyre heiress. Nothing for Illyrio.

I agree.

However, I wonder what this makes Lemore? Ashara would fit, if not for those damn eyes and one would also wonder how Ashara Dayne could get involved in such a scheme because Aegon would be a Blackfyre and not truly connected with Rhaegar at all. So, likely not her. But she would also not be Aegon's real mother, that would be Serra. Any ideas on who Lemore is and why she is involved with this scheme?

[Envie]

According to the wiki regarding Aegor Rivers (Bittersteel) http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Aegor_Rivers:

"On his deathbed Bittersteel commanded the men of the Golden Company to boil the flesh from his skull, dip it in gold and carry to before them when they cross the sea to retake Westeros. His successors had followed his example."

While most wonder if his famous Blackfyre sword would still be with the Golden Company, I have to wonder if they still have his golden skull and are bringing it along to Westeros? :shocked:

[Kadence]

I agree.

However, I wonder what this makes Lemore? Ashara would fit, if not for those damn eyes and one would also wonder how Ashara Dayne could get involved in such a scheme because Aegon would be a Blackfyre and not truly connected with Rhaegar at all. So, likely not her. But she would also not be Aegon's real mother, that would be Serra. Any ideas on who Lemore is and why she is involved with this scheme?

She could still be Ashara, I'm like 50/50 on that theory. My personal preference is that she's not Ashara (I prefer Ashara stays dead) but it's possible. Remember that in the KotL story Ashara was said to have danced with the griffin lord - so Connington and Ashara know each other. As carefully crafted as the KotL story was, I could see that as a hint that she works with Connington as Lemore. We know Lemore is probably some sort of noble lady as Connington addresses her as such. But, there's very little to go on so it's all highly inconclusive.

As for why she'd be involved with YG, well it could be the same reason as Connington is. She was Elia's handmaiden and is probably a Targ loyalist. She could be tricked just like Jon. I really doubt Lemore knows who Aegon really is. And Varys would want to involve Ashara - if both Rhaeghar's best friend and Elia's handmaiden say the kid is Rhaeghar and Elia's son, a lot of people in Westeros would be convinced of it. These would be some truly impressive witnesses.

[History of Westeros]

Yes, I had theorized brother/sister even before I learned Varys was from Lys (him being from Myr was the biggest hole in my theory). It would complete a full explanation of Varys' motives.

Even if they aren't related, it seems likely Varys introduced them and did the matchmaking.

I think it's Pycelle who claims Varys is from Lys, I'm not sure if it's confirmed. Would fit beautifully, tho.

Another potential clue is when speaking of his friendship with the eunuch, Illyrio mentions that Varys chose him as a protector (after Varys was beaten badly). Illyrio says "I never knew why he chose me" but it could be that he had the right looks. He does have yellow hair and was quite handsome and muscular as a younger man (remember that he has a statue of himself at his manse, that he claims has brought him to tears, given what he's become). The hair is a bit off, but the extreme good looks could've been close enough for Varys' purposes.

[History of Westeros]

double up.

[Jon AS]

While most wonder if his famous Blackfyre sword would still be with the Golden Company, I have to wonder if they still have his golden skull and are bringing it along to Westeros? :shocked:

Yes. The Golden Company keeps the skulls of all former commanders. They are arranged around the commander's tent when Connington and company get to the camp IIRC.

[Whatever]

I think it's Pycelle who claims Varys is from Lys, I'm not sure if it's confirmed. Would fit beautifully, tho.

pycelle said that varys was the son of a slave in lys. IMO, It doesn't fit with the other thing we know about varys, because he said he was an orphan, and that he woked with a mummer company. He didn't say he was a slave, and i can't see how the son of a weaver would end up in a mummer company

@Kadence: why are you SO sure about serra being a blackfyre? I do believe she was YG's mother, but how could the last descender of Daemon blackfyre end up in a pleasure house in Lys? It doesn't make much sense.

We do know she was from Lys, and that's enough for the theory to work. If she was also a blackfyre, the lysene bit would be redundant.

I do believe YG is illyio's son by his beloved wife. that's all. he fooled Joncon and the GC both

[Wouter]

As for why she'd be involved with YG, well it could be the same reason as Connington is. She was Elia's handmaiden and is probably a Targ loyalist. She could be tricked just like Jon. I really doubt Lemore knows who Aegon really is. And Varys would want to involve Ashara - if both Rhaeghar's best friend and Elia's handmaiden say the kid is Rhaeghar and Elia's son, a lot of people in Westeros would be convinced of it. These would be some truly impressive witnesses.

Ashara could have been tricked, but probably not in the very direct aftermath of the rebellion, when she supposedly committed suicide (Connington wasn't involved until a few years after the fall of KL, IIRC). So why would she have faked her suicide and fled to the East, if she did have a deadborn girl as Barristan said and that's the end of it?

Kadence: why are you SO sure about serra being a blackfyre? I do believe she was YG's mother, but how could the last descender of Daemon blackfyre end up in a pleasure house in Lys? It doesn't make much sense.

We do know she was from Lys, and that's enough for the theory to work. If she was also a blackfyre, the lysene bit would be redundant.

I do believe YG is illyio's son by his beloved wife. that's all. he fooled Joncon and the GC both

Dany herself could have ended up in a pleasure house in Lys. What if Illyrio had taken her from Viserys and sold her to such a pleasure house, instead of to Drogo? What if she had been taken captive in the first battle around Yunkai, where Yunkai's envoy said this to her:

Grazdan shrugged expansively. “If blood is what you wish, let it flow. I am told you have freed your eunuchs. Freedom means as much to an Unsullied as a hat to a haddock.” He smiled at Grey Worm, but the eunuch might have been made of stone. “Those who survive we shall enslave again, and use to retake Astapor from the rabble. We can make a slave of you as well, do not doubt it. There are pleasure houses in Lys and Tyrosh where men would pay handsomely to bed the last Targaryen.

Furthermore, we have only Illyrio's word that Serra was a slave. If it was an arranged (by Varys?) marriage instead, with a free woman, would he tell us (or Tyrion)?