[ADWD SPOILERS] Unrevealed Prophecies

[Fire Eater]

Who the hell knows?

When you ask a question like, "So how could he have gotten Valyrian steel 3000 years before it was invented?", I'm going to answer based on the implication that you think we're actually talking about Valyrian steel. I'm sorry?

NP, just a miscommunication.

On a side note,I really wish Tyrion had come at a later time when Old Nan was telling Bran the story of the Others and the Last Hero. I at least hope we run into Old Nan again who is being held at the Dreadfort, so she can continue her story, but that is probably unlikely. The weirwoods have seen a lot for millenia, I wonder if Bran can find anything from the past when the Others first came that could be useful, or finish the rest of Old Nan's story by witnessing what happened to the Last Hero? What do the CotF remember of the Last Hero and the Long Night, what story do they have?

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Another possibility would be that the LH's sword was made of meteoric iron, like Dawn. Even if the First Men hadn't figured out how to make steel from iron ore (where the iron is in the form of oxides and requires reducing), they could still use pure meteoric iron. Is there not historical precedent for that on Earth? The text that Sam read says "dragonsteel" (probably meaning Valyrian steel) because the Andal that wrote the story down thousands of years later screwed up.

[FanTasy]

Another possibility would be that the LH's sword was made of meteoric iron, like Dawn. Even if the First Men hadn't figured out how to make steel from iron ore (where the iron is in the form of oxides and requires reducing), they could still use pure meteoric iron. Is there not historical precedent for that on Earth? The text that Sam read says "dragonsteel" (probably meaning Valyrian steel) because the Andal that wrote the story down thousands of years later screwed up.

Nice thinking. The association dragonsteel - Valyrian steel was so obvious I went for it immediately.

But there is another possible association, as you stated here.

Dawn, the blade of The Sword of the Morning, has a blade that supposedly is forged out of something that felt to Earth, probably at Starfall.

There is also the legend we are told by Irri(?) of dragons falling out of the moon.

So a blade that is made of a kind of metal that fell down to earth could be seen as the steel of the dragons who also fell down to earth?

A bit off topic. I am still bugged by why not his sword but the man himself, Arthur Dayne, was called the Sword of the Morning. It was a title that the heir of Dayne would carry. Why would the heir of Dayne be called the sword of the morning? Was a Dayne the original 'lightbringer'? Or did he carry the sword that brought the light after the long darkness?

And by the way, there is another mention of men called swords: the members of the Night Watch, who proclaim themselves as being 'the sword in the darkness' when they say the words.

[Eyron]

Nice thinking. The association dragonsteel - Valyrian steel was so obvious I went for it immediately.

But there is another possible association, as you stated here.

Dawn, the blade of The Sword of the Morning, has a blade that supposedly is forged out of something that felt to Earth, probably at Starfall.

There is also the legend we are told by Irri(?) of dragons falling out of the moon.

So a blade that is made of a kind of metal that fell down to earth could be seen as the steel of the dragons who also fell down to earth?

A bit off topic. I am still bugged by why not his sword but the man himself, Arthur Dayne, was called the Sword of the Morning. It was a title that the heir of Dayne would carry. Why would the heir of Dayne be called the sword of the morning? Was a Dayne the original 'lightbringer'? Or did he carry the sword that brought the light after the long darkness?

And by the way, there is another mention of men called swords: the members of the Night Watch, who proclaim themselves as being 'the sword in the darkness' when they say the words.

Dawn... Sword of the morning... This is bugging me endlessly, I feel they have to have something to do with the War for Dawn otherwise it's really annoying that they are called those things. Or it's simply a big fat red herring of course.

Good call on the sword of the morning and the Night's Watch = the sword in the darkness.

Thinking about the connection here, I wonder if the Last Hero or the AA (or whoever wielded Lightbringer) did his deed in conquering the Others in the north or if it was in the south or Westeros? The winter had spread over all of Westeros, so nothing really says that the battle was fought in the north, so perhaps it was fought in Dorne? The Daynes and the Starks seem to have some deep connection, that even survived the ToJ tragedy, since little Ned is called so after Eddard (or that it seems so anyhow).

If it was material of the meteor (or the meteors impact) that were used in defeating the Others, perhaps the Daynes made the sword out of the meteoric material found, to save for the future? Ah, I don't know, but there has to be some connection between these events...

It is interesting that the families Stark and Dayne are at each end of Westeros but seem so connected. And that the Daynes are probably not Rhoynish or Andal but First Men descendants.

[Pliskin]

Dawn, the blade of The Sword of the Morning, has a blade that supposedly is forged out of something that felt to Earth, probably at Starfall.

There is also the legend we are told by Irri(?) of dragons falling out of the moon.

So a blade that is made of a kind of metal that fell down to earth could be seen as the steel of the dragons who also fell down to earth?

Wow, interesting !

Dawn is made of a meteorite, but moon, meteorite... people like Irri don't make the difference between those concepts.

I always thought Dawn was some sort of synonym for Lightbringer (the word changed in the translation process with Ashai), but this really adds another argument towards Dawn = Lightbringer. Kudos.

Maybe Azor Ahai means the Sword of the Morning :D

The question now, if we suppose this theory, is : Does AAR need be a Dayne ?

[Dragonfish]

A bit off topic. I am still bugged by why not his sword but the man himself, Arthur Dayne, was called the Sword of the Morning. It was a title that the heir of Dayne would carry. Why would the heir of Dayne be called the sword of the morning? Was a Dayne the original 'lightbringer'? Or did he carry the sword that brought the light after the long darkness?

Sword of the Morning is a title passed down to whoever in the Dayne family is "worthy" of the sword Dawn. It is not automatically passed down to the heir of House Dayne (Ser Arthur was in the Kingsguard, so obviously he couldn't have been the heir).

[FanTasy]

Sword of the Morning is a title passed down to whoever in the Dayne family is "worthy" of the sword Dawn. It is not automatically passed down to the heir of House Dayne (Ser Arthur was in the Kingsguard, so obviously he couldn't have been the heir).

True! I forgot that. Well, that makes it interesting. What makes you worthy of Dawn?

[Dragonfish]

True! I forgot that. Well, that makes it interesting. What makes you worthy of Dawn?

I'm not sure, but my guess is that fighting prowess is a major criterion. We haven't really been given much information about it, though. Most of what we do know about it comes from semi-canon SSMs, I believe.

[BTR-90]

The only way I will believe that Dany is not TPWWP is when someonelse manages to wake dragons from stone.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Be very careful with that prophesy Dany heard from her handmaid. (It was actually Doreah, who heard it from a trader from Qarth.) She said the first moon got too close to the sun and cracked, and that the second moon would someday kiss the sun, too. That sounds a lot more like an eclipse than a meteorite falling to me. Unless it refers to an Arryn smooching a Martell- we've seen so many deceptive prophesies that it would be foolish to take this at face value. Even if it isn't just wind.

[TheMysteriousOne]

Here's something I've been pondering: Noble families in Essos don't do the whole Westerosi sigil thing, right? (I assumed the animal sigils in the west were a remnant from the practices of First Men nobility who were skinchangers, a la the Starks, just as the maesters using ravens for communication is a bastardization of the First Men using ravens directly as communicators.) Illyrio even makes fun of the Westerosi obsession with sigils to Tyrion.

So why exactly did House Targaryen have a 3-headed red dragon as its banner? Aegon the Conqueror famously rode a BLACK dragon, not a red dragon. At first I thought it was because House Targaryen always had a red dragon as its sigil and Aegon didn't want to change it, but Valyrian families don't appear to have had personal sigils---I can't think of any family in Essos (only sellsword companies and cities as a whole (Titan of Bravos, Harpy of Meereen, etc.)) who do the whole sigil thing. The 3 heads makes sense, due to Aegon and his sisters, but why did Aegon I choose a red dragon instead of a black dragon?

We know that members of House Targaryen have been obsessed with the Azor Ahai/PTWP prophecy. I think we can infer (based on people spending years pouring over prophecies) that there are more prophecies that the Targs knew that GRRM hasn't yet told us. Is it possible that Aegon the Conqueror thought he was Azor Ahai reborn, and chose the red dragon as his sigil because he thought it represented Lightbringer, the red sword of heroes? If so, and he was clearly wrong, could drawing parallels between him and our current-day Azor Ahai candidate(s) suss out what those unrevealed prophecies might say?

Aegon the Conqueror famously wore black armor. Aegon united a huge portion of Westeros, but he never got Dorne or the lands beyond the Wall, and indeed, House Targaryen never ruled over the wildlings. He had two sisters who were also not his sisters, one dark, one bright. (Visenya's sword was Dark Sister, Rhaenys's sword was Brightflame. Maybe they believed they were playing roles in the prophecy and named their swords accordingly? They could also have believed that Visenya was ice and Rhaenys was fire). I think it's very odd that the Targs claimed that sibling marriage was a Valyrian custom, yet none of Valyria's remnants (not even Volantis, which claims to maintain the 'purest' Valyrian culture) seem to practice it. There's also no need to assume that sibling marriage is needed to control dragons, for the same reason (also, we saw non-pureblood Targs (Rhaenyra's mother was an Arryn, Aegon's mother was a Hightower) using dragons in the original Dance of Dragons). So maybe Aegon married his sisters because it was the only way he saw to fulfill a prophecy that they be both his sisters and not his sisters?

Rhaegar once believed he fit the prophecy, but something changed his mind. It's unclear when exactly he realized this and began believing Aegon fit the bill. (Note that Rhaegar, like Aegon I, wore black armor.) But maybe it was the fact that he never had even one sister in his lifetime, and had to marry a Martell, that convinced him he wasn't the prophesized savior? He then thought his son Aegon would fit the prophecy, since Aegon would need a dark (ice) sister and a bright (fire) sister, and Elia Martell of freakishly hot Dorne had already given him the latter? A daughter with Lyanna, a daughter of Winterfell, would have fit the dark/ice motif, and might explain why he ran off with her.

There's been a lot of speculation that Jon is really Azor Ahai. He wears black, as a brother of the Night's Watch. Jon has won acclaim from the wildlings, people that House Targaryen has never ruled---if he somehow makes it onto the Iron Throne, he would literally rule people from every single region in Westeros. If R+L=J, then he has two sisters who are not his sisters--his sisters because their bonded direwolves are sisters to Ghost (even Lady, brief though that was); yet also not his sisters because they're biologically his cousins. One sister (Arya) is dark, one sister (Sansa) is bright (personality-wise); they could also just fulfill a bright/dark requirement though their hair color (there's precedent in giving hair color importance, as we saw with the Lannister kids' 'golden crowns'), as Arya' hair is dark and Sansa's is "kissed by fire".

I just think it would be hilarious if such powerful people worked so hard to study and tease out the meaning of prophecies, only to have their efforts be completely worthless. Meanwhile, Jon waltzes in, knows nothing about any prophecies, and fulfills them without trying. It would certainly be in line with how GRRM treats prophecies. Rhaegar ends up fathering the true Azor Ahai, but the prophecy is fulfilled because of the Starks and the North, not because of the Targaryens' efforts.

I also don't think characters who know about Azor Ahai/PTWP necessarily realize it refers to the battle against the Others. Melisandre was always convinced Stannis was the one, yet she didn't advocate going to the Wall until Davos brought up the Night's Watch's plea. The Red Priests in Essos think Dany fits the bill, but they don't know about the Others' return---they think her current anti-slave crusade is the battle Azor Ahai will fight. Therefore, it makes sense that the Targs who knew about the prophecies never bothered with the North and the Wall; they thought the battle would be fought elsewhere, since they didn't know the Others really exist.

About House Targaryen, there are things that I would like to point out. First of all, the reason that House Targaryen adopted a sigil, is probably because they wanted to be integrated into mainstream Westerosi culture. In my eyes, I think the Targaryens wanted to be a part of Westeros, and not only conquerors. Otherwise why would they have adopted the Faith of the Seven, or why else did Aegon go to Oldtown to be anointed as true king of Westeros

[winteristheseason]

Not sure if its been mentioned before but there is a chance that Theon is in fact AAR. He is clearly reborn twice- first in salt (his baptism at the Iron Islands to the Drowned God) and again in smoke (the burning of winterfell- reborn as reek). From the WoW chapters it seems that Theon is going to be burnt as a sacrifice to R'hollor, be interesting to see what happens there

[firepoet]

Dawn... Sword of the morning... This is bugging me endlessly, I feel they have to have something to do with the War for Dawn otherwise it's really annoying that they are called those things. Or it's simply a big fat red herring of course.

Good call on the sword of the morning and the Night's Watch = the sword in the darkness.

Thinking about the connection here, I wonder if the Last Hero or the AA (or whoever wielded Lightbringer) did his deed in conquering the Others in the north or if it was in the south or Westeros? The winter had spread over all of Westeros, so nothing really says that the battle was fought in the north, so perhaps it was fought in Dorne? The Daynes and the Starks seem to have some deep connection, that even survived the ToJ tragedy, since little Ned is called so after Eddard (or that it seems so anyhow).

If it was material of the meteor (or the meteors impact) that were used in defeating the Others, perhaps the Daynes made the sword out of the meteoric material found, to save for the future? Ah, I don't know, but there has to be some connection between these events...

It is interesting that the families Stark and Dayne are at each end of Westeros but seem so connected. And that the Daynes are probably not Rhoynish or Andal but First Men descendants.

The only problem with them being First Men descendents is they don't have the features. They aren't described similarly to the Northmen or Iron Islanders, or Wildings. They often have light blond hair and violet eyes. Which makes them more like Valaryians than First Men.

Which is also interesting. The family that holds the unique sword, also have physical features that are unique for where they live.

[alienarea]

Not sure if its been mentioned before but there is a chance that Theon is in fact AAR. He is clearly reborn twice- first in salt (his baptism at the Iron Islands to the Drowned God) and again in smoke (the burning of winterfell- reborn as reek). From the WoW chapters it seems that Theon is going to be burnt as a sacrifice to R'hollor, be interesting to see what happens there

And maybe it is hidden in the name? Theon = The One?

[The Dragon has three heads]

The only problem with them being First Men descendents is they don't have the features. They aren't described similarly to the Northmen or Iron Islanders, or Wildings. They often have light blond hair and violet eyes. Which makes them more like Valaryians than First Men.

Which is also interesting. The family that holds the unique sword, also have physical features that are unique for where they live.

Which GRRM has played down endlessly, leading me to believe there's far more to the Daynes.

Dorne would be the ideal environment to stop the others In my opinion.

Their "valyrian" features would indicate they are certainly unique in that part of the world, and yet after thousands of years of inbreeding it seems those traits are still dominant.

Are they what became valyrian in a quest to find the ultimate weapon against the others ie dragons?

Too many questions...

[qixoticneurotic]

ive had the theory that "mounts" in "stallion that mounts the world is more like horse mating. . one of danys dragons will destroy the wall screwing the world over and unleashing the others. waking dragons from stone could be jon (dragon) from the wall(stone) by destroying it.