[ADWD SPOILERS] Unrevealed Prophecies

[Glyn Tarvoke]

I found it curious that we have not heard any Westoros version of the Azor Ahai story. The Westoros old stories about the Wall mention Joramund and Bran the Builder. Not any stories about a burning sword tempered by the blood of your beloved wife. I guess the white walkers were in Essos in the distant past. Pretty realistic that by the time the others show up most of the old knowledge is long forgotten.

[tze]

If AA and the PTWP are different entities, then I've always thought Bran is best situated to be the Prince, just because a Prince/Princess isn't the same as a King/Queen. Dany's a Queen, not a Princess, and the raven seems to tell us that Jon will be a King, not a Prince.

Saalador Saan describes Azor Ahai as forging Lightbringer in the sacred fires of a temple, so I've always envisioned Azor Ahai as a red priest from Essos - which is pretty far removed from the Starks and the frozen north of Westeros!

People from Essos certainly talk about "Azor Ahai" in Essosian terms, but as the Others and the War For the Dawn are associated with Westeros, I'd be shocked if anything the Essosi tell us about Azor Ahai or the Others turns out to be correct in a literal sense. Lightbringer as the Night's Watch makes a lot of sense, and I can see how stories in Essos---someplace far, far removed from the North---could mutate the Watch into the idea that Azor Ahai literally had a magic fiery sword. Even the name "Azor Ahai" sounds like a purely Essosi name. Random thought: we know "Lhazar" means "lamb". Who wants to bet that "Azor" means "wolf"? I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think that the words for lamb and wolf derive from a similar root. And "Azor Ahai" might translate as "Great Wolf" or "Direwolf", and all the tales of "Azor Ahai" are really just mutated tales of Brandon the Builder?

We're told about a long-ago pact between the Children and the First Men wherein the forests belonged to the Children and the open fields to the First Men. Well, we know that pact has been broken; men have been living in the Haunted Forest, the Wolfswood, etc. I'm curious how this will affect relations between men and the Children.

I think it's interesting that the Others start rising not too long (in the grand scheme of things) after the Faith of the Seven begins infiltrating Winterfell. Ned Stark kept the Old Gods and not the Seven, but he married Catelyn in a sept, not a godswood, and he built a sept in Winterfell, the heart of the North. He let his children be raised in both the Faith and the Old Gods, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that this trend would probably have eventually resulted in the obliteration of the Old Gods worship north of the Neck. He even tells Arya that Bran---Brandon STARK---might one day become High Septon. Well, look at what's happened: Bran Stark is a greenseer of the Old Gods, the Stark children are abandoning the Faith in favor of the Old Gods, and the burning of Winterfell destroyed the sept (but not, interestingly, the godswood).

Maybe some pact existed wherein the Starks pledged to always keep the Old Gods, and the intrusion of the Faith of the Seven into Winterfell disturbed some magic there and allowed the Others to wake up?

[PatrickStormborn]

Stannis is the red herring within the story. We, the readers, know that Stannis is a fraud, but not everyone in Westeros does. Dany is the red herring outside of the story — the person that readers themselves have been led to believe is the leading candidate for AA. That might be worded confusingly, but I see a definite difference between "Stannis isn't the real AA" and "Dany isn't the real AA." One is used in dramatic irony terms (Stannis), and one is a narrative sleight of hand (Dany). Martin does something similar with Cersei's "younger and more beautiful queen." The dramatic irony "fake" is Margaery (whom Cersei suspects), while Dany is again likely to be the sleight-of-hand "fake" (whom readers are led to suspect). Watch the queen of the prophecy turn out to be neither of them.

I also think that Dany can prove Stannis is a fake without having to be AA herself. And really, for all the prophecies and epithets related to Dany (mother of dragons, slayer of lies, whatever), none of them really suggest that she alone is AA. There's no "savior/messiah" thing going on there. Sure there are priests and people like Aemon who think she's AA, but the actual prophecies that she's heard herself don't point to that, at least in my interpretation. You could argue that the fact that so many people, so early in the story think that Dany is AA is an even stronger indicator that in the end, she isn't.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, then! But personally I don't even feel that Daenerys is the obvious choice. A lot of readers wouldn't have pieced it together until Aemon spelled it out - and at that point in the novel, Dany is ruling a city on the other side of the world to Westeros! I also think there are plenty of reasons as to why Dany is the Prince Who Was Promised, such as the fact that we only ever really hear the prophecy in relation to her - the Undying (Rhaegar), Aemon, and Barristan.

The Prince Who Was Promised has to come from Aerys and Rhaella's line, which means Bran isn't a candidate. That leaves Daenerys, and Jon and Aegon if they are the sons of Rhaegar. TPWWP also has to wake dragons from stone. Only one character has done this. And it has to be done at the end of a long summer under the red star. Again, only one character has done this.

But like I said, the reason I'm a firm believer that Dany is the Prince Who Was Promised is because there simply isn't time for it to be anyone else. Marwyn and Moqorro, who both know about the prophecy (and Marwyn knows about Aemon's ideas), are both approaching her. All the red priests in Essos think she's Azor Ahai reborn. So I think she'll find out about the prophecy in the next book and learn that she needs two more, as the dragon has three heads.

I have to disagree that Daenerys doesn't come across as a saviour figure. She's the only person in the world to have woken dragons in hundreds of years, and through this she's led to magic becoming much more potent in the world. Now she's currently ruling in Slaver's Bay and has almost destroyed slavery - and I expect that we'll be seeing more of this in the next book! It also looks like she'll be the first woman to control a proper Khalasar (and the Undying show her gaining the respect of the crones of the Dosh Khaleen).

Compare this to other characters in the series. Jon, for example, hasn't done anything at all on this scale. He protected Westeros against the Wildlings, but in the end it was Stannis who saved the day. And was this battle even particularly wise, when Jon actually knew who the real threat was? I'm not saying all of the other characters are unimportant, I'm just saying that they don't seem to come across as a saviour figure on the scale of Daenerys.

I just don't think that there's any evidence that suggests that anyone else could be the Prince Who Was Promised. There's Jon's dream, of course, but I've always interpreted that as showing that he will be one of the heads of the dragon. It may seem obvious to us that he'll be one anyway, but the general readers who don't know about R+L=J probably haven't even considered that.

And as for Cersei's prophecy, I've always thought Sansa was the more predictable person. But I do think it will be Daenerys. After all, Cersei herself described Jaime as being like a stable boy compared to Rhaegar - so how will she view herself compared to his sister, Daenerys?

[The Mother of The Others]

The prophecies aren't going to matter this much. I'm easing up on how deep and satisfying I expect the prophecy fulfillment to be. People aren't going to radically change into symbolic elemental creatures like on the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. Characters will continue going about their business as regular people is what we'll see. Their affairs may conclude in a way that eerily fulfils a prophecy or two. But only after the fact will this be apparent. So there's no benefit to fussing over this stuff in advance as if we can get an early warning of how the story will end. Especially when just the opposite is true. The author has double and triple checked his wording to ensure that no one can figure out the ending in advance. So the only difference between us and my grandmother is we've chosen a secular novel to use while we obsess over prophecy. In her case it led to paranoia and dangerously burning several frying pans on the stove due to being so distracted. So I'm making the decision right now to not spend the next decade trying to guess who the flippin AA is. I mean by then we'd all be ready for an AA meeting ourselves. Which would make possible the astonishing revelation that each and every one of us was AA!

Also, regarding the topic title, is a prophecy still a prophecy when it hasn't ever been revealed? A foretelling that's never been foretold by anyone. That's like when you're about to burp on a date so you close your mouth at the last second to stifle the belch which then gets trapped and reverberates within your chest cavity painfully but never actually makes its way out into the world as a burp. Does that still count as a belch, really? Same thing with those ridiculous people who stifle their sneezes into that absurd dainty hiccup sound that no person should ever make. Don't they realize that this bizarre act of stifling their sneezes is disturbing people much much more than if they'd just sneezed normally? In much the same way, a prophecy that never even gets propheted is even more obnoxious than a prophecized prophecy!

Also, dude originally chose a red dragon so that he could say ........ "Blood O' the Dragon," all the time, right?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, then! But personally I don't even feel that Daenerys is the obvious choice. A lot of readers wouldn't have pieced it together until Aemon spelled it out - and at that point in the novel, Dany is ruling a city on the other side of the world to Westeros! I also think there are plenty of reasons as to why Dany is the Prince Who Was Promised, such as the fact that we only ever really hear the prophecy in relation to her - the Undying (Rhaegar), Aemon, and Barristan.

Yep, agree to disagree. :) I thought Dany-as-an-AA candidate was subtle as a brick, but maybe it wasn't. *shrugs*

People from Essos certainly talk about "Azor Ahai" in Essosian terms, but as the Others and the War For the Dawn are associated with Westeros, I'd be shocked if anything the Essosi tell us about Azor Ahai or the Others turns out to be correct in a literal sense. Lightbringer as the Night's Watch makes a lot of sense, and I can see how stories in Essos---someplace far, far removed from the North---could mutate the Watch into the idea that Azor Ahai literally had a magic fiery sword. Even the name "Azor Ahai" sounds like a purely Essosi name. Random thought: we know "Lhazar" means "lamb". Who wants to bet that "Azor" means "wolf"? I don't think it's too much of a stretch to think that the words for lamb and wolf derive from a similar root. And "Azor Ahai" might translate as "Great Wolf" or "Direwolf", and all the tales of "Azor Ahai" are really just mutated tales of Brandon the Builder?

This is really interesting. I think it makes sense that Azor Ahai, though a legend in the eastern tradition, is based on a western hero. We have stories in the books (like in Bran's chapters) that explicitly link the Night's Watch to the Battle for the Dawn. It's not out of the question for a prophecy to originate in one place (like Asshai) but be fulfilled in another (Westeros).

Think of it like playing a game of telephone. You have a guy commanding the Night's Watch who defeats the Others, and his legend travels all over the world. The Night's Watch vow mentions that it's a sword, that it brings the dawn, etc. The Wall itself was built by magic that possibly (probably) included some amount of blood sacrifice. After X number of retells, by the time it gets to Asshai, the story has been warped to include a flaming sword and a guy who had to sacrifice his wife. A prophecy about AA's rebirth comes out of Asshai, which by now has put its own stamp on the legend, and no one thinks to link it to what's happening on the wall. The joke may be that the red priests are relying on fire to give them signs when in fact it's ice that will reveal AA.

[GoodGuyA]

Who wants to bet that "Azor" means "wolf"?

Not me. That would be far too obvious, and Melisandre would not have been wasting her time with Stannis. Even if we don't know her full intentions, it would have been foolish to not even see the North once in her entire time in Westeros. Just too plainly obvious.

The joke may be that the red priests are relying on fire to give them signs when in fact it's ice that will reveal AA.

Whilst I don't much agree with the vast misconstruing towards an utter distance of anything mystical, I do like this sort of idea. The whole "Others Saving Westeros from Dany" is something I personally get behind (even if I don't want it to happen), and I like the irony of religious orders quite a bit. It would be quite interesting to see that after all this time, Melisandre is just now getting a clue.

[tze]

Not me. That would be far too obvious, and Melisandre would not have been wasting her time with Stannis. Even if we don't know her full intentions, it would have been foolish to not even see the North once in her entire time in Westeros. Just too plainly obvious.

First, you've somehow attributed my quote to PatrickStormborn. Second,I don't know how much stock I'd put in the idea that something can't be true because Melisandre would have noticed it. Mel didn't even think to associate Azor Ahai with the North and the actual Others until Davos brought the Watch's plea to Stannis's attention.

But like I said, the reason I'm a firm believer that Dany is the Prince Who Was Promised is because there simply isn't time for it to be anyone else. Marwyn and Moqorro, who both know about the prophecy (and Marwyn knows about Aemon's ideas), are both approaching her. All the red priests in Essos think she's Azor Ahai reborn. So I think she'll find out about the prophecy in the next book and learn that she needs two more, as the dragon has three heads.

But that's assuming that it matters what Marwyn, Aemon, and the priests of R'hllor think. If Azor Ahai really does have some Others-centric destiny, then what's going to matter is the North, not the East. To me, the fact that everybody who knows about Dany automatically assumes she's Azor Ahai reborn is strong evidence that she really isn't, because that's not how prophecies work in ASOIAF.

I just don't think that there's any evidence that suggests that anyone else could be the Prince Who Was Promised. There's Jon's dream, of course, but I've always interpreted that as showing that he will be one of the heads of the dragon. It may seem obvious to us that he'll be one anyway, but the general readers who don't know about R+L=J probably haven't even considered that.

Hey, if R+L=J, then Jon was born at the end of the long summer (the end of the 300-year reign of House Targaryen, builders/destroyers of Summerhall) as the star bled (Ser Arthur Dayne) out of smoke and salt (grey and white, the ancient colors of House Stark). He's hanging out in the North, at the Wall, a place heavily associated with the only "sleeping dragon" we've actually yet seen: Bloodraven, who is "dreaming" in his hollow hill (and whose sigil is an albino dragon).

[Black Crow]

There are a couple of things bother me about this AA business.

Basically, disregarding the variations in the signs and portents and this new business which has just emerged about banishing death, we're told AA was a warrior who after a bit of bother managed to forge a red sword called Lightbringer. Then what? How did he, personally, win the War for the Dawn? And then what happened to him?

This then has a bit of bearing on the "new" AA. Again a warrior, and known by said signs and portents, but not AA "come again" until the sword is drawn from the stone flame. Then what? Clearly a mighty warrior, but how is the defeat of the Great Other to be encompassed? Is AA to lead the armies of Light bearing aloft the sword as a banner, or is it going to be necessary to get up close and personal in a single combat with said Great Other, in which the aforementioned magick sword is required to slay the same?

Or is it all metaphorical and mundane and will the Wights succumb to wildfire rather than dragonfire?

Essentially, I think Dany is going to be important not because she is a reincarnation of the original AA - who perhaps forged the first iron sword in a war against men carrying bronze and obsidian weapons - but because the Red Temple thinks she is

[Yeade]

Well, since everyone's discussing pet theories about AAR/PTWP... ^_^

My preferred model of prophecy in fantasy is actually based on Star Wars, lol, specifically the whole Chosen One business. Given that the Force (magic, if you will) demonstrably exists in the SW universe and influences the material plane, sometimes in powerful ways, it seems reasonable to me that imbalances in the Force can create the conditions for true prophecy by shaping people and events toward convergences of mystical energy similar in principle to how electric charges build up in storms, then are released as dramatic bolts of lightning.

Continuing this analogy, lightning strikes are not completely random; it's far more likely a tall, metal spire on a skyscraper will be hit over and over versus a person sheltering in a ditch. The Jedi and Sith can then be thought of as Force lightning rods, the Skywalker bloodline in particular. Having innate connections to the Force, they're also most responsive to the flow of the Force's energies. All of which contributes to both orders constantly being drawn into or serving as the impetus for huge fateful conflicts that shape the face of the galaxy.

To return to the Chosen One prophecy, Palpatine's a dark side nexus and the culmination of thousands of years of Sith scheming (the so-called Rule of Two instituted by Darth Bane, FYI). Anakin Skywalker's the instrument of the Force in countering Palpatine, but he instead becomes Darth Sidious's apprentice of his own free will in the convergence at the end of ROTS. The imbalance in the Force remains, and the massing energies begin pushing Anakin's children, Luke and Leia, to do what their father could not. Another convergence rolls around in ROTJ, and Palpatine's killed by the joint efforts of Luke and Anakin/Vader. However, again due to free will, ROTJ need not have transpired as it does. For one, Luke might've fallen to the dark side and taken his father's place as the Emperor's right hand man. What then? The burden of the entire prophecy shifts to Leia and possibly her descendants. If not them, then perhaps other Force sensitives. Point is, the Force continues to seek new paths toward the fulfillment of the Chosen One prophecy, trying to correct the imbalance with each attempt becoming progressively harder, until Palpatine's triumph is total.

How is this related to ASOIAF? Let's say the wacky seasons of Westeros and impending ice zombie apocalypse are the result of or cause a magical imbalance. AAR/PTWP's appointed task is to correct this imbalance by fighting and, presumably, defeating the Others in the war for the dawn. Now consider that, had events like Brandon brashly challenging Rhaegar in King's Landing gone differently, Robert's Rebellion may have ended with the Targaryen dynasty still intact or, indeed, never happened at all. Who would've been AAR/PTWP then? Rhaegar? Aegon? The list goes on and on.

So, it makes sense to me that the identity of AAR/PTWP is not set in stone but conforms or, rather, adapts to the course of events as determined by free will. Dany may have held the title when she births the dragons. However, by swanning about Essos for her next three to four books without an inkling that there's an existential threat for her to face half a world away, another potential candidate, Jon, has been chosen by fate. Or, really, the magical underpinnings of ASOIAF's universe that mere mortals interpret as fate, shaped by chance and choice like a river's flow might be diverted by natural and man-made obstacles.

In my view, any and all of the proposed AAR/PTWP contenders can fulfill the relevant prophecies, in whole or part, consecutively or concurrently. My speculation's that Jon takes the role until Dany finally arrives in Westeros, at which point the two may share. With Bran and others, like the riders of the dragons, also contributing.

This (hypothetical) malleability doesn't make prophecy useless, though. The legends about AAR/PTWP instruct people as to the threat of the Others. It does no good to try to recreate the exact circumstances of the foretelling because every action anybody takes anywhere is influencing the prophecy's form. However, if you act as you see fit to resolve your immediate situation, keeping prophetic warnings in mind but not letting these guide your decisions in place of rationality, you'll probably end up the fated hero one way or another. With a little luck, of course. Or a lot of luck. :laugh:

Crazy talk aside, lol, regarding AAR/PTWP's eastern associations, there's a very interesting older thread (link!) that speculates the Land of Always Winter far north of the Wall and the Shadow beyond Asshai are magically, if not geographically, one and the same, with the Night's Watch and shadowbinders like Quaithe serving as guardians, respectively. The implication's that whatever arcane forces drive the Others to invade Westeros during long winters may be capable of directly attacking Essos, as well.

While the last recorded incursion of the Others in Westeros is some eight thousand years ago during the Long Night, could it be possible that Essos is threatened by the Shadow between then and the present? Maybe around the time five(?) thousand years ago when the prophecy of AAR/PTWP originates? Hence why the terminology of the war for the dawn is largely eastern and an organized religion (R'hllor) dedicated to the concept has sprung up on that continent whereas, in Westeros, memory of the Long Night has faded to Old Nan's tales and northern traditions like the Stark words or NW vows. Essos simply fights off the Others or their Shadow counterparts thousands of years more recently than Westeros. This all might even tie into Valyria, which is on the rise then, and thus the Targaryens. Who would have reason to believe their dragons are crucial to defeating the Others if they've done so before.

Food for thought, I hope. Or, you know, crazy talk. :blush:

[Black Crow]

Don't believe a word of it, but I genuinely enjoyed reading it. :cheers:

[Yeade]

Thanks, Black Crow, lol. I live to entertain. ^_^

As a further explanation of why exactly I subscribe to such a bizarre view of prophecy in fantasy:

I believe magic introduces an inherently deterministic element into stories that any writer worth his salt must take care to balance by showing the effects of free will upon what amounts to the natural laws of the (fictional) universe. Man, why isn't there an easier way to say this stuff...?

Okay, basically, if an author incorporates prophecy into his fantasy, then at least one of these prophecies must at a later time prove to be true, IMO. Otherwise, he's just wasted his time and that of his readers drawing a narrative distinction between the so-called prophecies and your everyday predictions of or hopes for the future. The more mystical mumbo jumbo is involved in a prophecy, the less likely I feel it is a writer can completely invalidate said foretelling without also discrediting the existence of magic itself. Unless he can offer a rationale for why the prophecy doesn't work out that's based in characterization. That the magic practitioner is unskilled or interprets what s/he sees incorrectly, for instance.

The real problem lies in Chosen One prophecies, I think. These are almost invariably linked to the deep magical foundations of the universe upon which all other magical structures are built--the Force in SW, Eru Ilúvatar in LOTR, the soul in HP, to cite a few examples. And whatever's responsible for ASOIAF's unpredictable seasons along with attendant issues like the Others. Make a serious prophecy about these story elements, and it'd better turn out right or you risk undermining the internal consistency of your setting to the point where suspension of disbelief collapses. Not to mention Chosen One prophecies often stem from how an author intends to resolve his major plotlines. If you're revising wholesale the conclusion of your epic fantasy halfway through, you're probably in creative trouble.

Question is, how to preserve dramatic tension if the ultimate direction of your main story is known? Now, the concept that free will can affect the form Chosen One prophecies take is needed. Characters retain their agency because it's only through their choices that they can become figures of prophecy or, if they already meet the criteria, lose their destined places. Herein lies the suspense. Well, along with the fact that Chosen One prophecies usually require great sacrifice, so people are naturally curious about who lives, who dies, and under what conditions, lol. The usual obfuscations of dubious understandings of and/or lack of information about prophecies also help keep the reader interested.

GRRM is no different in this respect, I find, from the other fantasy authors whose work I've enjoyed. Probably because it's really difficult to take another approach to the subject of prophecy without, again, subverting the entire premise of magic or denying main characters freedom to act.

As an addendum, I don't see how a truly chaotic form of magic can be incorporated into a story without narrative causality breaking down. If a practitioner can potentially do anything, up to destroying the universe with a snap of the fingers, but can't be at all confident that s/he can do anything specific at any given time, magic would be absolutely useless both in-universe and as a plot device. Putting limits, no matter how vague or circumstantial, on what can be accomplished by magic implies underlying systematic mechanisms. At best, these are simply beyond human comprehension. Which, honestly, is unlikely to happen in any fantasy series because such books are not typically written by theoretical physicists, lol.

Time to return to your regularly scheduled thread! :laugh:

ETA:

Many apologies for repeatedly hijacking the thread. I'd start my own topic on such matters if I weren't positive I'd end up talking to myself within two pages, lol. I'm not yet so eccentric that I'd prefer my own company over that of others. :closedeyes:

One final (hilarious!) realization: Though I speak in jest of theoretical physicists becoming epic fantasy authors, modern physics can in fact account for both prophecies about the future and Bran's weirwood greenseeing into the past. Many of our conceptions of how time works are wrong, the result of our limited human perception, as explained by Brian Greene. The assumption that only the present exists in a tangible or, rather, observable form is mistaken. The past never disappears and the future is already there in the spacetime continuum, so it's totally plausible that, with magic, people like Melisandre and Bran can access these other points in spacetime. Har!

[Dragonfish]

tze--

I like your theory that Aegon believed he would be the PWWP, and that he made the three-headed dragon as his sigil because of a prophecy. I always thought it was too coincidental that the Targaryens' choice of sigil also happened to be important imagery related to the PWWP (especially given that certain Targs have had prophetic abilities).

It could provide an explanation for the whole incest thing, as well as clarifying why Rhaegar believed he was AA and then mysteriously abandoned that theory in favor of his son being AA.)

According to Maester Aemon, Rhaegar changed his mind when he saw a red comet on the night of Aegon's conception.

Jon is a candidate for AA, and he has two sisters who are also not his sisters. He shares that quality with Aegon the Conqueror. I'm speculating that Aegon the Conqueror married his sisters, not because it was a Valyrian custom or because it was necessary for dragonriding, but because he misinterpreted an as-yet-unrevealed AA prophecy as requiring him to marry his sisters so that they would be both his sisters and not his sisters. Jon, if R+L=J, has accomplished the same thing (Sansa and Arya are his true sisters, via the Ghost/Lady/Nymeria relationship, and also not his biological sisters) but without the creepy incest.

I know the thread has kind of moved past this, but I still don't understand why Aegon's sisters were not his sisters. Could you please elaborate further?

[ARYa_Nym]

I just noticed that The Last Hero was brought again by someone other than Old Nan. Sam told Jon in AFFC:

"I found one account of the Long Night that spoke of the last hero slaying Others with a blade of dragonsteel. Supposedly

they could not stand against it." "Dragonsteel?" Jon frowned. "Valyrian steel?" That was my first thought as well."

Is this someone other than AA?

[Black Crow]

Its a bit hard to tell after 8,000-odd years, but given the circumstances related in Old Nan's tale I'd tend to suspect that the Last Hero and Azor Ahai are two different people - unless of course Azor Ahai translates as Last Hero.

I have a theory... (well somebody's got to)

There's an obvious problem in that we've got two different mythologies (not histories 8,000 years on, but mythologies); one from Westeros speaking of the Last Hero and one from Essos or further east speaking of Azor Ahai. They could fundamentally be one and the same, but what if they are different?

Leaving aside the signs and portents prescribed for AA come again, all that we really know at this stage is that after a number of failed attempts the original one forged a mighty sword of steel. Could this really be the legendary version of the Andals learning to work steel and so using it to defeat the Children and the First men with their weapons of bronze and obsidian. The Children, being the Others, then retaliate by unleashing the Long Winter. Being the apocalyptic option this proves just as deadly to the First Men as it does to Azor Ahai and his Andals, so the Last Hero finds the Children and patches something up in return for some kind of binding of the Starks to the Children as discussed above.

Its not a perfect theory by any means simply because we quite deliberately haven't been told everything we need to know; but quite aside from the fact we're relying on 8,000 year old legends, GRRM not only told us through Sam in FFC that the old stories are mince, but repeated that same passage word for word in ADwD. This, therefore, is trying to make a little sense of the little that we do know.

[tze]

I know the thread has kind of moved past this, but I still don't understand why Aegon's sisters were not his sisters. Could you please elaborate further?

Because they were his wives. The characteristics that make a woman a wife are different (some sort of ceremony) than the characteristics that make a woman a sister (blood ties or adoption).

[PatrickStormborn]

The Last Hero seems to be the Westerosi version of the prophecy, the Prince Who Was Promised seems to be the translated version of the Valyrian prophecy, and Azor Ahai seems to be the prophecy from Asshai. I think they're all one and the same; however, I also think that it's not a coincidence that there are three prophecies. We already know that the dragon has three heads, after all. But I don't think that the three heads of the dragon are Azor Ahai, TPWWP and The Last Hero. I think one of them (Daenerys, as I've already argued) is the one who fulfills the prophecy. But does it make her more of a hero than the other heads of the dragon? Not at all. She's just the one who has awoken dragons from stone and fulfilled the prophecy. Take Harry Potter, for example, where there are technically three heroes - one of whom is the chosen one - I think that ASOIAF will be different in that all three are going to be equally important. But it goes without saying that the one who has woken the dragons is the "central" one of the three, if you like.

I do see why people think Jon is the one the prophecy refers to... But I've seen no well presented evidence (sorry!) that would suggest he's more likely than Daenerys. He has not fulfilled the prophecy. This is a fact. The idea of the Targaryen reign referring to the long summer is actually quite interesting and is one I would possibly believe. But the red star being Arthur Dayne is a lot less believable, and the smoke and salt being the House Stark colours is almost completely unbelievable. The smoke and salt in the original prophecy almost definitely refers to Dragonstone. Melisandre was drawn to Stannis because he had Targaryen blood and was the Lord of Dragonstone. Aemon thinks Daenerys is the one because she was born there. In a Davos chapter it's mentioned that the hero will be born out of the sea - again hinting at Dragonstone.

I know that there isn't much textual evidence to suggest that Aegon the Conqueror even knew about the prophecy, but it's been hinted at quite a lot that him and his sisters are an important part of it. Rhaegar named his children after them and seems to have went after Lyanna so that he could have a third child - a Visenya. And who did Rhaegar think was the Prince Who Was Promised? His son, whom he named after Aegon the Conqueror. Which character in the series has seemingly taken on the role of Aegon the Conqueror, and has even hatched a dragon who has been referred to as Balerion the Black Dread come again? Daenerys. So my argument is that the other two heads of the dragon have to be men. Daenerys knows this and has been referring to it over the last few books. If Jon was the Prince Who Was Promised, he would be the one riding Drogon and taking on the role of Aegon the Conqueror.

On another note: if Jon marries Arya and Sansa at the end of the series, I will be horrified. They're his sisters, even if you (like me) believe in R+L=J. They were still raised together when they were children, and that's all that matters. Most of Jon's story has been showing us that, even if it does turn out that Ned isn't his real father, he's still a Stark, and Bran and Rickon and Robb and Arya and Sansa are still his siblings.

[ARYa_Nym]

Arthur Dayne might not be the red star but I like him as it because Dawn was forged from a fallen star.

I'm now more convinced than ever that it's 3 people who fulfill it in different ways. Bran is the only one who has found the COTF. Jon is the only one of the 3 likely to wield a Valyrian steel sword that perhaps burns red. Dany is the only one who woke dragons from stone.

Also, they all have essential weapons. Bran as a greenseer can track their movements maybe through the trees and do lots of other cool stuff maybe. Dany has dragons and fire is essential against wights which the Others use as their main force. Jon knows about obsidian and he has a Valyrian steel sword. Those 2 are the known weaknesses of the Others.

[Eyron]

Is anyone else bothered by the fact that Rhaegar named his kids in the wrong order? Visenya was the oldest girl, Rhaenys the youngest.

[tze]

Is anyone else bothered by the fact that Rhaegar named his kids in the wrong order? Visenya was the oldest girl, Rhaenys the youngest.

Rhaenys was older than Aegon, and supposedly Rhaegar didn't change his mind until Aegon was born, so I guess it makes sense that Rhaegar wasn't yet trying to re-create the Visenya/Aegon/Rhaenys trio when Rhaenys was named.

But the red star being Arthur Dayne is a lot less believable, and the smoke and salt being the House Stark colours is almost completely unbelievable.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree there. GRRM has, on multiple occasions, used the word "smoke" as a color, so I can see "smoke and salt" referring to colors, and House Stark claims to have had its colors since the building of the Wall. And GRRM keeps hitting us over the head with the fact that Arthur Dayne, of Starfall, bled and died at the Tower of Joy. This repetition probably means something, and I don't think it's a coincidence that a "star" bled at what we think was Jon's birth.

Besides, the prophecy specifically says AA will "wake" dragons. Dany hasn't woken dragons. She's birthed dragons. If we think every word in the prophecy is meaningful, why not the word "wake" as well? Sam thinks to himself in AFFC "Where will we find a sleeping dragon?", and I think GRRM answers that question in ADWD when he introduces Bloodraven, the dreaming dragon.

On another note: if Jon marries Arya and Sansa at the end of the series, I will be horrified. They're his sisters, even if you (like me) believe in R+L=J. They were still raised together when they were children, and that's all that matters. Most of Jon's story has been showing us that, even if it does turn out that Ned isn't his real father, he's still a Stark, and Bran and Rickon and Robb and Arya and Sansa are still his siblings.

I don't think GRRM has shown us that incest is good or necessary (quite the opposite), so there's no way Jon is ever marrying either of his sisters, even if they're biologically his cousins. And I don't think a major theme of ASOIAF is that incest was somehow good for the Targs, so I can't see incest really being necessary for anything at all.

[FanTasy]

<Besides, the prophecy specifically says AA will "wake" dragons. Dany hasn't woken dragons. She's birthed dragons. If we think every word in the prophecy is meaningful, why not the word "wake" as well? Sam thinks to himself in AFFC "Where will we find a sleeping dragon?">

Hmm ... I see your point. But if the story about the eggs that were given to Dany is correct, they were not just eggs. She was told that the eggs were very old, fossils, gone to stone. If you can make fossils into live and breathing animals that are supposed being extinct, you could call that an awakening I suppose.