Sandor Clegane 4

[R & R]

Sandor's horse-training abilities make him a far more interesting character. Actually, it makes me wonder if he's got a bit of warg blood in him.

Horse offspring? Just so much bloat, I think it is rather unimportant to the story that we ever know this.

As for Sandor having warg skillz: oh please no. Much of what endears me to this character is that he is just this guy, yeah sure with a certain genetic physical advantage that serves him well in a world rewarding fighting skills, and happening to be politically positioned such that it makes sense he has some impact upon the story that DOES FUCKING NOT require magical abilities. That he's psychologically conflicted can be compelling and is, such as Martin has written the character. That he somehow magically can influence dogs, or other such doggy creatures such as foxes and wolves, and I'm specifically aiming at a certain Direwolf that might serve as a deux ex machina when it's inconvenient to have Arya arrive in Westeros quite yet.... Or anything magical on Sandor's part: just, gag.

Sandor is a real big human, with real big human abilities and both real big external and real big internal conflicts. This is what makes him compelling. Attributing to him any form of magical ability sucks the life out of what makes him seem so real, and would destroy everything that ever made his character interesting.

Also, Sansa did possess a certain magical ability to warg with a specific Direwolf, but this has been eliminated with the assassination of Lady. The only magic these two have left is what they can summon in the bedchamber. Why so? Because us San/San shippers want it so badly.

Okay, so not so much with the logic, and maybe more to do with a certain minority of shippers. Count me in, boo-yah!

(Edited to correct the tense of a thing).

[PhoenixFlame]

Well it's not impossible to keep a stallion off a mare when they aren't in heat. We did it at my stables but the riders in those classes were always advanced.

But that would have made for a hilarious scene.

Arya: "AAAAAAH!"

Sandor: "STRANGER DOWN!!!!!"

As for his desire to kill Gregor, I think it's more complicated than "Die at any cost" because, remember, at the tourney he did listen to Robert's order to stand down. I thought it was interesting how they handled it in the tv series -- Sandor does this little spin-to-kneel with Gregor's sword flying over his head. Dude must've had a lot of faith in Robert. I would not be on my knees in a five mile radius of The Mountain.

[voodooqueen126]

you know here is something interesting for me:

blond hair and fine features are often associated with youth: our hair tends to darken with age, and our features tend to get stronger as we age (for instance noses can become hooked).

When Sansa is pre-pubescent she admires blond haired Joffrey, and not particularly masculine Loras.

When she starts menstruating, she starts fantasizing about Sandor (who has dark hair and might be hairy) and a sort of hooked nose and heavy features.

[Susan Delgado]

I mentioned earlier in this thread that there were some hints that Sandor could warg in ASOS.

When he abducted Arya from the BWB and they were on the run Arya noted 'Half the time he slept, trusting his stallion to follow whatever rutted farm track or game trail they were on'. Seriously, if you were on the run from a bunch of outlaws with necromancy powers because you've kidnapped Arya Stark and they want to see you dead, would you be falling asleep and trusting your horse to find the right trail?

When Joffrey died in ASOS (yay!) 'a thin black dog crept up beside her, sniffing at Joffrey's corpse'.

When Joffrey died in ASOS (yay!) 'a thin black dog crept up beside her, sniffing at Joffrey's corpse'.

Also noticed in AFFC the comment from Elder Brother about Stranger 'I fear he has his former masters nature'. The direwolves seem to also have the Stark kids nature as well, especially Shaggydog.

[Many and More]

Well it's not impossible to keep a stallion off a mare when they aren't in heat.

Um, not to be rude, but any decent horseperson can manage a stallion, from the ground or from his back. The problem occurs when the mare and stallion are picketed at night when Sandor and Arya are out on the road, and there is no obvious way of keeping them apart.

Horse offspring? Just so much bloat, I think it is rather unimportant to the story that we ever know this.

As for Sandor having warg skillz: oh please no.

Hey, to each his own. I would consider a SanSan subplot to be bloat. (*runs away, ducking*)

I don't really believe Sandor has warging skills, but you could certainly come to that conclusion based on Stranger's behaviour. Could be GRRM throwing us a hint. But more likely it's just GRRM knowing little and less about horses. :P

[PhoenixFlame]

Um, not to be rude, but any decent horseperson can manage a stallion, from the ground or from his back. The problem occurs when the mare and stallion are picketed at night when Sandor and Arya are out on the road, and there is no obvious way of keeping them apart.

Hey, to each his own. I would consider a SanSan subplot to be bloat. (*runs away, ducking*)

I don't really believe Sandor has warging skills, but you could certainly come to that conclusion based on Stranger's behaviour. Could be GRRM throwing us a hint. But more likely it's just GRRM knowing little and less about horses. :P

Buahaha, you're not rude at all, and quite correct. It was just always a joke my stable owner used to say during lessons if there was a stallion in the ring. If you were riding on a mare and in front of one of our stallys, usually this surly appaloosa named Jericho, he'd say "better keep that momentum or else you might be riding double with Jericho."

I guess they kept Stranger and Craven pretty far apart. Poor Arya if she woke up to squealing horses though.

[Many and More]

I mentioned earlier in this thread that there were some hints that Sandor could warg in ASOS.

When he abducted Arya from the BWB and they were on the run Arya noted 'Half the time he slept, trusting his stallion to follow whatever rutted farm track or game trail they were on'. Seriously, if you were on the run from a bunch of outlaws with necromancy powers because you've kidnapped Arya Stark and they want to see you dead, would you be falling asleep and trusting your horse to find the right trail?

When Joffrey died in ASOS (yay!) 'a thin black dog crept up beside her, sniffing at Joffrey's corpse'.

When Joffrey died in ASOS (yay!) 'a thin black dog crept up beside her, sniffing at Joffrey's corpse'.

Also noticed in AFFC the comment from Elder Brother about Stranger 'I fear he has his former masters nature'. The direwolves seem to also have the Stark kids nature as well, especially Shaggydog.

Nice! Some good points there to support this fun crackpot theory.

Except for the part about Sandor dozing and trusting Stranger to follow whatever track they were on. Any horse will follow whatever track or road they're on without guidance, just because it's the easiest way forward. And Sandor was trying to put as much distance as possible between himself and the BwB, so it doesn't really matter which trail he picks through the woods, just as long as they keep moving instead of stopping to sleep. I would most definitely trust my horse to keep moving forward while I dozed if I were running for my life.

[Susan Delgado]

Nice! Some good points there to support this fun crackpot theory.

Except for the part about Sandor dozing and trusting Stranger to follow whatever track they were on. Any horse will follow whatever track or road they're on without guidance, just because it's the easiest way forward. And Sandor was trying to put as much distance as possible between himself and the BwB, so it doesn't really matter which trail he picks through the woods, just as long as they keep moving instead of stopping to sleep. I would most definitely trust my horse to keep moving forward while I dozed if I were running for my life.

Call me paranoid but if I was in the Hounds boots certainly wouldn't be going to sleep and just letting my horse pick whatever trail it chooses. We know that Sandor is scared shitless of fire and he was running from a group of people who worship a fire god and practice necromanc. Sandor is not stupid and I don't think he's just trust Stranger to find the right paths like that. This is all happening in the riverlands where there is Lannisters, Freys, outlaws, the Brave Companions running around and of course Arya Stark wants to escape from him and Sandor is just sleeping? I don't think so!

[voodooqueen126]

Buahaha, you're not rude at all, and quite correct. It was just always a joke my stable owner used to say during lessons if there was a stallion in the ring. If you were riding on a mare and in front of one of our stallys, usually this surly appaloosa named Jericho, he'd say "better keep that momentum or else you might be riding double with Jericho."

I guess they kept Stranger and Craven pretty far apart. Poor Arya if she woke up to squealing horses though.

I guess since it happened at night, there was no reason for Arya to mention it in her POV chapters. It's not like foals have dynastic struggles associated wit them.

[little_horn]

what about some houndish foreshadowing for sansa!! like when they decide to kill lady and Robert says 'get her a dog, she'll be happier for it.'

[Many and More]

Call me paranoid but if I was in the Hounds boots certainly wouldn't be going to sleep and just letting my horse pick whatever trail it chooses. We know that Sandor is scared shitless of fire and he was running from a group of people who worship a fire god and practice necromanc. Sandor is not stupid and I don't think he's just trust Stranger to find the right paths like that. This is all happening in the riverlands where there is Lannisters, Freys, outlaws, the Brave Companions running around and of course Arya Stark wants to escape from him and Sandor is just sleeping? I don't think so!

I don't know about you, but I can't stay awake indefinitely, no matter how scared I am, or how badly I need to stay awake; at some point the body simply needs sleep. When your choice is to nap on your horse while moving away from danger, or stop and get off and sleep...well, there is no choice. You stay on the horse and keep moving while you try to doze. There's absolutely nothing stupid about it.

Also, Sandor is an experienced soldier, and has learned to catch a nap whenever and wherever he can. He needs to be ready should any of the dangers that you list actually materialize.

And not that it really matters, but it doesn't say that Sandor lets Stranger pick whatever trail he chooses. It says Sandor trusts Stranger to continue along the path or trail that Sandor has chosen. It's not like you can sleep deeply while sitting upright, whether it's on a horse or on a stool, so Sandor is going to be dozing off and waking up frequently, and will notice if they end up on a path that's going in the wrong direction, and correct their course accordingly.

Not only that, but we have no reason to believe that Sandor has intimate knowledge of game trails and rutted tracks in the Riverlands. Stranger's pick of path at any given fork is probably just as good as Sandor's.

[PhoenixFlame]

Stranger's like some hellhound version of Lassie I guess.

[Many and More]

It's not like foals have dynastic struggles associated wit them.

Heh! You haven't read Guy Gavriel Kay's latest fantasy novel, Under Heaven, have you?

Sorry, wandering off topic!

[1234567]

When Joffrey died in ASOS (yay!) 'a thin black dog crept up beside her, sniffing at Joffrey's corpse'.

Also noticed in AFFC the comment from Elder Brother about Stranger 'I fear he has his former masters nature'. The direwolves seem to also have the Stark kids nature as well, especially Shaggydog.

I think this may have been the beginings of Sansa's warg abilities.

[voodooqueen126]

I think this may have been the beginings of Sansa's warg abilities.

I would love to see Sansa warging a dog and a bird to kill some Freys.

[headtrip_honey]

Ladies, I'm so bummed I've been absent. Whirlwind weekend. Bridal shower/bachelorette festivities on Saturday, museum attending and wine/antipasto enjoying on Sunday. This weekend has been full of a lot of alcohol, and not enough sleep.

Anywho, to the topic at hand:

I will be severely disappointed if EITHER Sansa or Sandor have warging abilities. The beauty of the both of them is that there is nothing supernatural about them. Sansa has never indicated like Arya, Bran or Jon (and presumably Robb and Rickon, though as non-POV characters, we don't know for sure) that she had or has any kind of warg connection. With those three, they all had dreams from the POV of their wolves. Only Bran (and perhaps Arya, although my memory is unclear) has recognized it for what it is. Jon may discover soon. She may have developed it had Lady lived, but I think that potential will go untapped.

I like having a part of the story being completely about political wiles, straight up fighting, and emotion. No sorcery, no dragons, warging. Just two people making do with what they have.

[headtrip_honey]

what about some houndish foreshadowing for sansa!! like when they decide to kill lady and Robert says 'get her a dog, she'll be happier for it.'

I do love that, as sad as I STILL AM about Lady.

And I love that while her siblings dream of their wolves, she dreams of Sandor. It's not the same connection, but I feel that he will fulfill the role of "protector" and possibly companion (whether romantic or no) that Lady would have had she lived.

[Été]

Stranger's like some hellhound version of Lassie I guess.

No, that's Sandor ;)

Hope you had an amazing weekend, headtrip_honey!

[headtrip_honey]

Hope you had an amazing weekend, headtrip_honey!

Thank you, I did! My liver is a little bit mad at me, but it'll survive. :)

ETA: Littlespider, I didn't get to respond, but re: thigh wounds, what I'd meant to say is that they usually imply some kind of sexual dysfunction of some kind, whether physical or no. I was typing on an iPhone and trying to be quick about it. You're right that I was mainly thinking of the Fisher King, but every other time I'd read of thigh wounds, something sexual was implied.

[littlespider]

Warging? Lame. The only warging I want to see is Sansa warging Viserion and toasting and eating both Littlefinger and Ungregor. /crackpot interthreaduality alert/ Her dreams are also not evidence of warging. She dreams ABOUT him. She doesn't dream as if she's in his body: that's how the warg dreams work thus far.

Stranger/Sandor: the ultimate cross-species bromance. Of COURSE you can doze on a horse and let him follow the track. And wake up occasionally (as someone said upthread). Horseback catnaps, as it were. And if he's not making the most efficient progress at this point in the book, we should remember that he's got an explicit agenda -- ransom Arya -- and an implicit, subconscious agenda -- self destruct.

ETA: the thin black dog at Joffrey's wedding feast was Sirius Black. He put the poison into the wine cup.