Sandor Clegane 4

[1234567]

How is "romantic" or wanting to fit a chivalric model less "shallow"? I don't buy it. Each of these characters has a different kind of complexity, a different kind of shallowness.

The point I was trying to make above was not just that Sandor hates Tyrion because he's short, ugly, weak (which weakness was totally thrown back in Sandor's face when Tyrion shamed him at Blackwater and rode out into battle) but also that Tyrion was able to stop some of Joff's violence against Sansa when Sandor himself was not. This has got to be salt in the wound, and it's more fuel for Sandor's brutal self-hatred. Thigh-wound schmigh-wound. His self-hatred is his most crippling problem.

Do I detect another Pyrion-shipper?? REJOICE.

I guess I had always thought romantic ideals were slightly more worthy: Tyrion wants a pretty noble girl full stop. Sandor and Sansa both want an ideal of a perfect society. They look for someone who is meant to be the best of how a person can behave, while Tyrion wants a pretty girl on his arm.

True it may well be a different type of shallow, but I think it is slightly better. Sandor's powerlessness is a huge part of his persona and you've brought that up perfectly. For all Sandor's physical strength he cannot stop Sansa being abused in the long term (he could once object and that would be the end of him). It must be gauling that he is essentially as powerless as he was with Gregor and yet Tyrion has the power to save Sansa when he does not. Also he has no respect for Tyrion, which makes me think that he saw or heard about the whole Tysha thing.

[littlespider]

Just something to throw out here, but would that topic of conversation come up between Sandor and Sansa? Specifically her maidenhead/marriage situation?? Maybe that's a stupid question in light of everything we've discussed, but I just thought I would take a different perspective for a second.

I think if she jumps him it will probably come up.

That, or if he's in any position to learn about plans for an annulment; the secret will come out.

For fun: how awkward would this convo between them be?

For as many hairy situations as she's gotten out of, I am beginning to think that Sansa's virginity has similar plot armor to Tyrion or Dany's life.

I guess I had always thought romantic ideals were slightly more worthy: Tyrion wants a pretty noble girl full stop. Sandor and Sansa both want an ideal of a perfect society. They look for someone who is meant to be the best of how a person can behave, while Tyrion wants a pretty girl on his arm.

I don't think of these things in terms of what is better or more worthy, since that's a very relative term. And Sansa's romantic ideals have gotten her into huge messes, repeatedly. But I guess I would also add that Tyrion's whole silly fantasy of love with the pretty girl is also a reflection of this whole set of romantic ideals. His whole issue with Shae is that he fools himself into thinking that she could possibly fall in love with him, rather than seeing the situation for what it is. Martin also seems to be devoted to demonstrating, over and over again, how typical chivalric ideals are disastrous in real life.

Sandor's powerlessness is a huge part of his persona and you've brought that up perfectly. For all Sandor's physical strength he cannot stop Sansa being abused in the long term (he could once object and that would be the end of him). It must be gauling that he is essentially as powerless as he was with Gregor and yet Tyrion has the power to save Sansa when he does not. Also he has no respect for Tyrion, which makes me think that he saw or heard about the whole Tysha thing.

For the first bold: yes, this is exactly it. It's partly why he hates Tyrion.

For the second bold: DUR *massive facepalm* I had in fact forgotten this long post I wrote where I speculated on this question!! Thanks for reminding me. I do think it's possible that he heard about this, and it would of course complicate or completely invert his view on Tyrion's ability to protect Sansa.

Poor guy. I don't blame him for drinking now.

[Black Amethyst]

I think when she jumps him it will probably come up.

That, or if he's in any position to learn about plans for an annulment; the secret will come out.

For fun: how awkward would this convo between them be?

For as many hairy situations as she's gotten out of, I am beginning to think that Sansa's virginity has similar plot armor to Tyrion or Dany's life.

Heh, considering how they both are, it would probably be Sandor having to pry it out of her, and as he's not one for social niceties, it would probably go like "So...Did he fuck you?" or possibly Sandor just assuming that to be true and making a comment instead of a question. "Well, since he already fucked you..." to which there would be a lot of embarrassed indignation of Sansa's part, extreme awkwardness, and foot in mouth on the part of Sandor.

[littlespider]

Heh, considering how they both are, it would probably be Sandor having to pry it out of her, and as he's not one for social niceties, it would probably go like "So...Did he fuck you?" or possibly Sandor just assuming that to be true and making a comment instead of a question. "Well, since he already fucked you..." to which there would be a lot of embarrassed indignation of Sansa's part, extreme awkwardness, and foot in mouth on the part of Sandor.

Ha! Cue Sansa jawdrop and stuttering, followed by Sandor facepalm.

[Rinso]

I strongly disagree with the idea that if Sandor heard about what happened to Tysha that would make him resent Tyrion. Sandor doesn't give a crap about random people's suffering and has very plainly expressed a worldview according to which the weak are made to be playthings for the strong. Let's face it - if the damsel in distress is not named Sansa Stark, Sandor Clegane has no interest in her plight. During the riot in ACOK he was much more worried about his horse than he was about, say, Lolys Stokeworth.

Now, the idea that Tyrion being able to stop Sansa's beating unlike Sandor himself, and that adds to his hatred towards the Imp... well, that's a wonderful and very logic conclusion. I'd stand behind it.

[brashcandy]

I strongly disagree with the idea that if Sandor heard about what happened to Tysha that would make him resent Tyrion. Sandor doesn't give a crap about random people's suffering and has very plainly expressed a worldview according to which the weak are made to be playthings for the strong. Let's face it - if the damsel in distress is not named Sansa Stark, Sandor Clegane has no interest in her plight. During the riot in ACOK he was much more worried about his horse than he was about, say, Lolys Stokeworth.

Just one of the many reasons why I ADORE their relationship :)

Now, the idea that Tyrion being able to stop Sansa's beating unlike Sandor himself, and that adds to his hatred towards the Imp... well, that's a wonderful and very logic conclusion. I'd stand behind it.

Yeah this to me covers the entirety of his hatred for Tyrion. The dwarf has access to a social power that Sandor will never have. He can offer Sansa his brute strength, but in creepy situations like when she was being humiliated by Joff, he couldn't do anything. For Sandor, the way that Tyrion as a deformed dwarf would still be able to command etc, would be just another way that the world is shitty and not fair. So, as to his future, he'll probably never get back into a situation like he was in at KL.

[1234567]

I strongly disagree with the idea that if Sandor heard about what happened to Tysha that would make him resent Tyrion. Sandor doesn't give a crap about random people's suffering and has very plainly expressed a worldview according to which the weak are made to be playthings for the strong. Let's face it - if the damsel in distress is not named Sansa Stark, Sandor Clegane has no interest in her plight. During the riot in ACOK he was much more worried about his horse than he was about, say, Lolys Stokeworth.

Now, the idea that Tyrion being able to stop Sansa's beating unlike Sandor himself, and that adds to his hatred towards the Imp... well, that's a wonderful and very logic conclusion. I'd stand behind it.

I would say it is not that he feels for Tysha, but that he would be disgusted by what happened to her by Tyrion, who was a nobleman's son.

As I have stated previously I don't know if Sandor will re-enter the story ever but if he does it would be nice if we find out why he seemed to hate Tyrion so much. It may just come down to the jealousy that a dwarf can have a better life than him. They seem to be almost equally rejected by society.

[PhoenixFlame]

The point I was trying to make above was not just that Sandor hates Tyrion because he's short, ugly, weak (which weakness was totally thrown back in Sandor's face when Tyrion shamed him at Blackwater and rode out into battle) but also that Tyrion was able to stop some of Joff's violence against Sansa when Sandor himself was not. This has got to be salt in the wound, and it's more fuel for Sandor's brutal self-hatred. Thigh-wound schmigh-wound. His self-hatred is his most crippling problem.

Oh, YEAH!

IIRC, at Blackwater Tyrion even yelled at Sandor when he would fight, "I'm half a man, what does that make you?" or something to that effect. OUCH.

And he totally thought Sansa was in for a world of hurt by marrying Tyrion. During his whole breakdown to Arya, I recall him going something like "I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out, rather than leaving her for that dwarf." Sorry if I've misquoted...haven't read the book in a few years and don't have it on hand. I know he was just raging, but the second part of his comment really stuck with me.

Here's someone who's never been brought up: Stranger! I friggin love that horse. Probably because he reminds me of a horse I used to ride at my stables who was very picky about people he liked. But I wonder how the Hound came across Stranger and what their backstory is. In my experience, most "one-person horses" prefer women. And as much as I thought Sandor saving Sansa during the riot was cute, I was also touched about how concerned he was for his horse. Largely because horses seem to be disposable razors in the fantasy world. Unless you're Epona.

Oh, has anyone seen this piece of fanart? You have to download it to read it but I was in hysterics.

[littlespider]

Oh, YEAH!

IIRC, at Blackwater Tyrion even yelled at Sandor when he would fight, "I'm half a man, what does that make you?" or something to that effect. OUCH.

And he totally thought Sansa was in for a world of hurt by marrying Tyrion. During his whole breakdown to Arya, I recall him going something like "I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out, rather than leaving her for that dwarf." Sorry if I've misquoted...haven't read the book in a few years and don't have it on hand. I know he was just raging, but the second part of his comment really stuck with me.

Here's someone who's never been brought up: Stranger! I friggin love that horse. Probably because he reminds me of a horse I used to ride at my stables who was very picky about people he liked. But I wonder how the Hound came across Stranger and what their backstory is. In my experience, most "one-person horses" prefer women. And as much as I thought Sandor saving Sansa during the riot was cute, I was also touched about how concerned he was for his horse. Largely because horses seem to be disposable razors in the fantasy world. Unless you're Epona.

Tyrion yelled that at Sandor's troops after he realized the Hound was dead on his feet.

You quoted that line just about perfectly. Frightening moment, and very sad.

STRANGER DA MAN. I love him. I love grumpy horses. Seriously how can you not love this face:

http://2.bp.blogspot...-h/P1000861.JPG

(this ma grumpeh face. leave me 'lone.)

I don't think Stranger came along until SoS. He lost a horse in the mob, then lost a horse in Blackwater. I've known some seriously mean-ass horses as well; the toughest for me have of course been studs (though my friends who do western are able to produce these remarkable cuddly perfectly mannered studs). I literally did a happy dance when Brienne heard that bastard kicking his stall in the stable.

I am with you; Sandor's worry over his horse was one of the things that won me over. That and his love of dogs.

He can offer Sansa his brute strength, but in creepy situations like when she was being humiliated by Joff, he couldn't do anything.

You're right in a way, though here is another point. I was thinking back to one of Jaime's greatest moments. (I like Jaime, but for some reason he hasn't won me over in the same way he has other readers.) It's a sort of downplayed moment where he's bitching out Boros (?) or Meryn (?) or somebody in the KG in SoS when he returns. I can't remember who it is he's bitching out, or the exact circumstances. But it's this KG asshole who's like "well I had to do [insert stupid or bad activity here] because Joff (or Tommen) ordered me to!" And Jaime is like "You asshole. The king is a kid. Your job is to protect the king, and that means protecting the king from himself when needed." He may even have been referencing the abuse of Sansa.

So basically what The Jaime was telling them to do is disobey the orders of the king when it's clear the king is giving shitty orders that are detrimental to him/his reign. Regarding Sansa: Arys was onto this, in a way. So was Sandor. But neither of them had the balls to stop it. (I'm curious to see how this "Enough" in the post-Oxcross beating scene works out in the show -- if B&W will make his protest stronger, since they're sort of softening up his character a bit anyway.)

In some ways, it was a Mycah-scenario writ small. He of course had the choice to stop it. Making that choice would have had serious repercussions for his career (or possibly his life, though I'm less convinced of this than some). He didn't make that choice, and now he's paying the brutal psychic penalty.

[Été]

I am with you; Sandor's worry over his horse was one of the things that won me over. That and his love of dogs.

Horses are expensive :P I thought it was more of a mark of how little he cared about the people involved. The Lannisters value the Hound as a man-at-arms, but he doesn't really have a use foranyone.

[Raksha the Demon]

Oh, YEAH!

IIRC, at Blackwater Tyrion even yelled at Sandor when he would fight, "I'm half a man, what does that make you?" or something to that effect. OUCH.

And he totally thought Sansa was in for a world of hurt by marrying Tyrion. During his whole breakdown to Arya, I recall him going something like "I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out, rather than leaving her for that dwarf." Sorry if I've misquoted...haven't read the book in a few years and don't have it on hand. I know he was just raging, but the second part of his comment really stuck with me.

Here's someone who's never been brought up: Stranger! I friggin love that horse. Probably because he reminds me of a horse I used to ride at my stables who was very picky about people he liked. But I wonder how the Hound came across Stranger and what their backstory is. In my experience, most "one-person horses" prefer women. And as much as I thought Sandor saving Sansa during the riot was cute, I was also touched about how concerned he was for his horse. Largely because horses seem to be disposable razors in the fantasy world. Unless you're Epona.

Oh, has anyone seen this piece of fanart? You have to download it to read it but I was in hysterics.

I loved the fanart! Viserys & Ygritte as the a ship of the two of the most annoying characters in ASoIaF, definitely! And Cersei and Melisandre getting together...And so many different interpretations of Sandor...

[Alexia]

Yeah, he just rides them down and cuts them nearly in half :P

It would be more apt to say that he doesn't beat the girl he has a crush on.

Replace Sansa with Lolys Stokeworth and I'm far from convinced he wouldn't have joined in on the bullying and the torments.

I can't quite agree with this. Arya gave him a ton of reason to give her a good beating (I would have kicked her ass long ago) and he only tried to scare her into knocking it off. TBH, I think the Hound's bark is generally worse than his bite, that he doesn't see a 13 year old as a child (remember he killed his first man at 12, and he made sexual overtures to a 12 year old Sansa), but that he has a distinction between tormenting people and killing them. Killing them is fun! Playing with them beforehand is gauche.

Black Amethyst, the thread I created for you is live... and now off I go.

[Alexia]

Here's someone who's never been brought up: Stranger! I friggin love that horse.

I love his name. Who else but Sandor would blasphemously name his mean hell horse after the god of death? :lol: I can see him dubbing Ser Stranger while he's fighting him to establish dominance.

And now I really am off....

[littlespider]

Oh, has anyone seen this piece of fanart? You have to download it to read it but I was in hysterics.

That is hilarious. StrangerSan FTW. I shall now change my title.

[Many and More]

STRANGER DA MAN. I love him. I love grumpy horses. Seriously how can you not love this face:

http://2.bp.blogspot...-h/P1000861.JPG

(this ma grumpeh face. leave me 'lone.)

Also a big fan of grumpy horses, especially grumpy Appaloosas.

Stranger rules. I want a Stranger POV!

[Hound's She-wolf]

I don't think Stranger came along until SoS. He lost a horse in the mob, then lost a horse in Blackwater. I've known some seriously mean-ass horses as well; the toughest for me have of course been studs (though my friends who do western are able to produce these remarkable cuddly perfectly mannered studs). I literally did a happy dance when Brienne heard that bastard kicking his stall in the stable.

I am with you; Sandor's worry over his horse was one of the things that won me over. That and his love of dogs.

I thought he had Stranger for awhile, Sandor tells Arya just before the Red Wedding, that the Frey that let them pass when he was dressed as the farmer, would have recognized Stranger (since he rode against him in tourneys), if he had bothered to look.

And who can resist a man that likes horses and dogs? Espesh grumpy ones.

[Été]

I thought he had Stranger for awhile, Sandor tells Arya just before the Red Wedding, that the Frey that let them pass when he was dressed as the farmer, would have recognized Stranger (since he rode against him in tourneys), if he had bothered to look.

I'm pretty sure he says something along the lines of, "...if he'd ever seen me ride him," while at the same time saying he's beaten the guy (Ser Donnel Haigh?) in tons of tourneys. So I thought the point was that men took careful note of one another's steeds, but he hadn't had Stranger long enough to show him off on the lists, and hence nobody recognised him.

[littlespider]

Also a big fan of grumpy horses, especially grumpy Appaloosas.

Stranger rules. I want a Stranger POV!

But when is an Appy not grumpy? ;) (Don't get me wrong, I love 'em)

When I get me my horse, his name will be Stranger. And he will be badass.

My last question of the night: they were traveling around with a mare named Craven as well. How did they keep Stranger off Craven?

[Starbird]

Don't get me wrong, I think he will still harbor some rageousness towards Tyrion, though if he does get a chance to talk to Sansa, we might see some grudging respect emerge that Tyrion did not actually force himself on her.* I think it really all depends on (a) if he gets to talk to Sansa and b. to what extent he's been working on his Issues on the QI. His chief issue is going to be Gregor. I'm hopeful that if he can work past the desire for vengeance on Gregor (*crosses fingers cause the same old vengeance for burned face schtick will be BOR-ing*), then he can process Tyrion's shaming of him at Blackwater. And IF he is able to talk to Sansa, then the whole question of "dwarf married my woman" problem will be somewhat ameliorated.

Which brings me to another question about the overall Tyrion/Hound antipathy. Our boy seriously hates Tyrion. I think it's twice now that he's expressed a wish to burn him alive. A number of reasons for this: (1) Tyrion shamed him at the Blackwater and (2) Tyrion married Sansa. In regards to 2, it used to occur to me that the reason for (2) was some obnoxious hyper-machismo BS about who got to claim her virginity. (This is deeply annoying to me on a number of levels.) But then I started thinking that Sandor is pissed about it because he assumed that Sansa would be horribly abused by Tyrion and suffer through a miserable life. And then I thought, no, Sandor actually was in a position to witness Tyrion being decent to Sansa, like when he stopped the naked-beating.

I'm over Gregor as a motivating factor for Sandor. While I think the whole champion thing will probably come to pass, I don't think Sandor is up at night thinking about him and gnashing his teeth with a desire to kill. He has enough horrors in his past to make Sansa forget about without adding "kinslayer" to the list.

I think it's possible that Sandor and Tyrion will bury the hatchet. (Well, Sandor, anyway. Tyrion seems to be without deep negative feelings toward Sandor.) I agree with you that the shaming at BBB and the marriage only made Sandor's hatred deeper, but there has to be some incident predating the text. I doubt it's the Tysha thing. As someone else said, Sandor wouldn't care about some random girl. It has to be a personal sleight, and something that Sandor probably thinks was done to him on purpose, that he's been stewing about ever since. But, he's in the business of dumping anger now, and he's got Sansa's ideals to live up to, so the rancor he has for Tyrion will have to be let go. I wouldn't mind seeing San/San/Ty teaming up for awhile, although I'm sure that'll never happen.

Do you think Sandor's interest in Sansa will be diminished if anyone but he claims her virginity?

Just something to throw out here, but would that topic of conversation come up between Sandor and Sansa? Specifically her maidenhead/marriage situation?? Maybe that's a stupid question in light of everything we've discussed, but I just thought I would take a different perspective for a second.

I think it'll definitely come up at some point. If she can tell the queen mid-banquet that she hasn't flowered yet, and her maidenhead is of high political interest, and she knows the guy she has the hots for hates the guy she's presumed to have slept with, I can't imagine her shying away from full disclosure.

I thought it was more of a mark of how little he cared about the people involved. The Lannisters value the Hound as a man-at-arms, but he doesn't really have a use foranyone.

Agreed but he does have a use for Sansa. I think he was so flustered by what almost happened to her that he felt the need to cover up his feelings by snapping out orders about his horse. The Hound was protesting too much, as it were.

[Many and More]

My last question of the night: they were traveling around with a mare named Craven as well. How did they keep Stranger off Craven?

Ha, so it's not just me who worries about these things. Maybe Craven's new owner will get a little, angry, black surprise in a few months.

Sandor's horse-training abilities make him a far more interesting character. Actually, it makes me wonder if he's got a bit of warg blood in him.