Sandor Clegane 6- Read the Mod Warning before you post

[1234567]

That depends on what the missive actually said. It sounds to me like he specified that it was someone in the Hound's helm rather than stating it was the Hound, but as people don't know the Hound is meant to be dead, the distinction was lost on Cersei and the rest.

Or Cersei didn't read the letter fully. In AFFC people are continuously reading missives to her that she interupts half way through, with some quip about its unimportance. Her main concern was the Tyrells and court and she is not looking at the bigger picture. EB may have written to others though....the new HIgh Septon for example.

[littlespider]

That depends on what the missive actually said. It sounds to me like he specified that it was someone in the Hound's helm rather than stating it was the Hound, but as people don't know the Hound is meant to be dead, the distinction was lost on Cersei and the rest.

Yes... good point. I think the chapter says something like "a roaring brute in a hound's-head helm was spotted" or something like that. So it might very well be EB clearly stating it's not him, but someone else.

Ya see, this is why I had the initial complaint about the EB's all knowing diagnosis of Sandor's history.... "loved no one and loved by no one" ...EB shut your mouth :angry:

Well, see, I kind of liked this aspect and thought it was accurate. This is not a guy that is capable of love in any sense. Yes, even the Sansa thing, in my book, is not anything like love or even infatuation. There's just not enough there.

Sandor's popularity will never cease to amaze me. I honestly believe that GRRM wrote him as a another "forgivable" villian because of fandom. Perhaps I am way too rigid, but I don't understand how Sandor can be redeemed. AGoT writes him as pretty much a murderous sellsword, with no scruples, and present day he seems to be a fan favorite. The man who "rode down the butchers boy" and has/had a thing for a young teenage girl. Will never understand why he is so sbeloved.

Well, if Martin planned his character for fandom, then he had it planned for a fandom that hadn't existed yet, since Sandor's presence as a well-rounded and conflicted character is there right from the first book.

Sandor's also a character who I suspect annoys the heck out of readers who approach the books with black-and-white thinking and who thrive off of id'ing characters along the lines of "is he good? evil? neutral evil?" -- all of which I find boring. Human beings do not work like that.

He does have scruples, and they're indicated on many, many occasions. They are not the same as Ned Stark's scruples. Nor are they the same as Dany's. Yet they are still not the same as Tywin's, or even Tyrion's.

Yet he murdered Mycah, operating under his own free will, despite whatever orders he may have been given by Cersei. I find it ridiculous when people argue that he shouldn't be blamed for this murder because he was taking orders. Give me a break. He killed the kid. He could have decided not to. What's more interesting is that this is clearly a decision that he's tormented about -- this becomes evident in his SoS chapters with Arya. It's one of the last things on his mind as he's dying.

I can say with relative certainty that, were Jaime in his shoes, the last thing on his mind wouldn't be guilt over shoving Bran out of a window. Jaime's also a character who gets a lot of fan love. He's also a jerkwad who commits the unthinkable -- violence against a child -- and who seems to be on a "redemption arc" (though I get tired of this phrase). Yet Jaime doesn't exhibit clear signs of guilty regret over what he's done. He mentions feeling ashamed once. But otherwise he's much more concerned with coming up with meaningful stuff to put in the white book. So I'd say that if it's between Sandor and Jaime -- both arrogant jerks who are violent to children -- Sandor wins hand down.

(Don't get me wrong: I like Jaime and his story arc, but don't find him nearly as interesting as Sandor.)

[voodooqueen126]

Does anybody think there is a possibility of Sandor and Brienne getting to the Eyrie...and Sandor informing Sansa over Littlefinger's words to her father?

Damned ADWD...

[littlespider]

Does anybody think there is a possibility of Sandor and Brienne getting to the Eyrie...and Sandor informing Sansa over Littlefinger's words to her father?

Damned ADWD...

As far as logistics go, as of right now Brienne has a little BwB debacle to extract herself from. And the passes into the Vale are obstructed by snows. Sandor does have a lot of information that would change Sansa's position on Littlefinger. Not only the Ned betrayal and bloodbath in the throne room, but also he may have some sense of where Jeyne Pool went. Unfortunately, both of these events -- the attack on Ned's men and the seizure of Jeyne -- he took a prominent part in.

I suspect that if we get this infodump, it would be part of a lengthy "mea culpa" sequence.

[voodooqueen126]

As far as logistics go, as of right now Brienne has a little BwB debacle to extract herself from. And the passes into the Vale are obstructed by snows. Sandor does have a lot of information that would change Sansa's position on Littlefinger. Not only the Ned betrayal and bloodbath in the throne room, but also he may have some sense of where Jeyne Pool went. Unfortunately, both of these events -- the attack on Ned's men and the seizure of Jeyne -- he took a prominent part in.

I suspect that if we get this infodump, it would be part of a lengthy "mea culpa" sequence.

She already knows that Sandor is a Lannister man... the big thing will how will Sandor get to the Gates of the Moon and for what reason?

[brashcandy]

Where are the mountain clans btw? I think that was the initial problem with getting to the Vale for Sandor and Arya not? Everyone's afraid of them.

[voodooqueen126]

Where are the mountain clans btw? I think that was the initial problem with getting to the Vale for Sandor and Arya not? Everyone's afraid of them.

I don't think the Gates of the Moon are as isolated as the Eyrie, and hence less Mountain Clan rubbish (way to go Tyrion for arming those savages)

[Bad Dog]

Ok, massive reply ahead. :D

Hooray for morbid thread resurrections!! Though sorry about your injury -- that sounds horrific. Truly you must be as badass as our boy then.

Heh, I try. :cool4: Currently working on the chopping people's arms off to save little girls thing. ;)

(Nah, the most badass thing I did must have been full-out attacking a 17-year-old bully to help a friend. I was 12. Or making it into the city-wide sabre fencing quarter finals and losing 6:15 to the current state champion - I must have scored those hits by sheer determination! :fencing: )

Anyway, back on topic.

I like EB, and generally think he's the best Sandor could've run into at this point in his life. But I am bugged by two things: one, obviously that leaving the bloody buggering helmet there was the biggest dumbass move he could've made. But two (and I didn't catch this until a recent reread) -- Cersei says at one point that she's received news of the Saltpans raid from a sept on some small island "hard by the mouth of the Trident." Is this the Quiet Isle? So, basically, leave his helmet there for any random sadist/outlaw to steal, and then when said sadist/outlaw steals it and does sadist/outlaw-y things, REPORT those things to king and attribute them to le chien? Anyone else wonder what is up with this or am I misreading something?

Actually I,too, think that the message doesn't say it's Sandor. But one might suspect that by claiming Sandor is out slaughtering civilians "4 lulz" the Elder Brother might intend to bind Sandor to the monastery, ad also to the Faith, pretty much forcing him to join the Warrior's Sons. It's not what I think, mind you, but one might claim that.

Sandor's popularity will never cease to amaze me. I honestly believe that GRRM wrote him as a another "forgivable" villian because of fandom. Perhaps I am way too rigid, but I don't understand how Sandor can be redeemed. AGoT writes him as pretty much a murderous sellsword, with no scruples, and present day he seems to be a fan favorite. The man who "rode down the butchers boy" and has/had a thing for a young teenage girl. Will never understand why he is so sbeloved.

Yet he murdered Mycah, operating under his own free will, despite whatever orders he may have been given by Cersei. I find it ridiculous when people argue that he shouldn't be blamed for this murder because he was taking orders. Give me a break. He killed the kid. He could have decided not to. What's more interesting is that this is clearly a decision that he's tormented about -- this becomes evident in his SoS chapters with Arya. It's one of the last things on his mind as he's dying.

The part about wanting Sansa is relatively easily answered: In the society of Westeros (as in medieval societies), there is no concept of "teenagers". One either is a child, or an adult. With her "flowering", Sansa has become "a woman grown" - an adult. The age gap (Sandor is in his late twenties, I believe) wouldn't bother people either.

About Mycah... Well, you can't quite explain it away with "it was an order", though that's an important aspect of it, in my opinion. It's pretty much how executions must be carried out frequenty, someone being sent to carry out a pronounced death sentence (Ned sent Beric to kill Gregor without any kind of trial too, remember? and that clearly is the legal way) Also, medieval criminal law does not quite distinguish between children and adults necessarily.

Sandor might have argued with Cersei about it... but then again, it really wasn't worth arguing with the Queen to him. From what he says in ASoS, we can guess that in truth he wasn't too pleased about the order, but risk the wrath of the queen for some half-grown boy? I'm sure someone as impertinent as he is does piss Cersei off sometimes, but about things that matter to him more.

That he laughed about it was him being back in his Bad Guy mask again. He may not have particularly liked carrying out that order, but he didn't miss the opportunity to add to his image.

But, yes, he is a lot more complex than that. I don't like it when people try to make him sound liek a big fluffy cuddly puppy. He is an ambiguus character.

She already knows that Sandor is a Lannister man... the big thing will how will Sandor get to the Gates of the Moon and for what reason?

Will he get there at all? My personal guess is that Sansa manages to "do an Arya" and get away somehow. Still, this is all just vague speculation, mind you.

[Bad Dog]

Where are the mountain clans btw? I think that was the initial problem with getting to the Vale for Sandor and Arya not? Everyone's afraid of them.

I think the best option is getting there by ship, as Sansa did when she arrived with Lysa and Littlefinger.

[Arya_Rocks]

Sandor is a twisted bastard who is better off as a gravedigger.

[Frozen Soul]

If Sandor is still alive (hopefully thats the case) he knows that the real Arya is alive considering that not even Varys knows what the hell happened to her, so maybe he could end up playing a part in proving that the Arya at winterfell is a fake (not that its a hard thing to do), and somehow that will be important to reclaim Winterfell and get rid of Ramsay, there's also the Ungregor issue or a) he's dead or b ) he'll just stay in QI and Martin is through with the character.

Seriously I don't know what to think anymore, I hope he still has a part to play in the story, Sandor IMO is one the most interesting characters out there.

[Bad Dog]

Sandor is a twisted bastard who is better off as a gravedigger.

And that from someone who clearly is a fan of Arya. :lmao:

[FacelessGirl]

And that from someone who clearly is a fan of Arya. :lmao:

I'm a fan of both so that was quite humorous. :lol:

[Hound's She-wolf]

Yet he murdered Mycah, operating under his own free will, despite whatever orders he may have been given by Cersei. I find it ridiculous when people argue that he shouldn't be blamed for this murder because he was taking orders. Give me a break. He killed the kid. He could have decided not to. What's more interesting is that this is clearly a decision that he's tormented about -- this becomes evident in his SoS chapters with Arya. It's one of the last things on his mind as he's dying.

I'll disagree somewhat with this, yes he could have decided not to, but what then? Refuse the Queen? He is the Sworn Shield of the Prince, who just got beaten with a stick and bit by a wolf, doesn't sound like Sandor did a great job protecting Joffrey. And if the Queen says that this is the boy that attacked the Prince, go kill him, it sounds like he'd better go get that kid. I know he has free will, but in the Westerosi world, when told to do something by your liege lord or King or Queen, unless you're willing to die, get tossed in the dungeon, etc you do what you're told.

If Sandor is still alive (hopefully thats the case) he knows that the real Arya is alive considering that not even Varys knows what the hell happened to her, so maybe he could end up playing a part in proving that the Arya at winterfell is a fake (not that its a hard thing to do), and somehow that will be important to reclaim Winterfell and get rid of Ramsay, there's also the Ungregor issue or a) he's dead or b ) he'll just stay in QI and Martin is through with the character.

I too, hope Sandor is alive and can expose

the fake Arya, however, who's going to believe him? The northmen will hate him just because he's a Lannister man, blamed for the Saltpans, deserter and guilty by association of being Gregor's brother.

I don't think he is the answer to the problems up north. (Don't know if we need the spoilers, but just in case.)

I don't think GRRM is done with the character because he would have just let him die, without giving a big hint indicating otherwise.

[voodooqueen126]

Ok, massive reply ahead. :D

Heh, I try. :cool4: Currently working on the chopping people's arms off to save little girls thing. ;)

(Nah, the most badass thing I did must have been full-out attacking a 17-year-old bully to help a friend. I was 12. Or making it into the city-wide sabre fencing quarter finals and losing 6:15 to the current state champion - I must have scored those hits by sheer determination! :fencing: )

Anyway, back on topic.

Actually I,too, think that the message doesn't say it's Sandor. But one might suspect that by claiming Sandor is out slaughtering civilians "4 lulz" the Elder Brother might intend to bind Sandor to the monastery, ad also to the Faith, pretty much forcing him to join the Warrior's Sons. It's not what I think, mind you, but one might claim that.

The part about wanting Sansa is relatively easily answered: In the society of Westeros (as in medieval societies), there is no concept of "teenagers". One either is a child, or an adult. With her "flowering", Sansa has become "a woman grown" - an adult. The age gap (Sandor is in his late twenties, I believe) wouldn't bother people either.

About Mycah... Well, you can't quite explain it away with "it was an order", though that's an important aspect of it, in my opinion. It's pretty much how executions must be carried out frequenty, someone being sent to carry out a pronounced death sentence (Ned sent Beric to kill Gregor without any kind of trial too, remember? and that clearly is the legal way) Also, medieval criminal law does not quite distinguish between children and adults necessarily.

Sandor might have argued with Cersei about it... but then again, it really wasn't worth arguing with the Queen to him. From what he says in ASoS, we can guess that in truth he wasn't too pleased about the order, but risk the wrath of the queen for some half-grown boy? I'm sure someone as impertinent as he is does piss Cersei off sometimes, but about things that matter to him more.

That he laughed about it was him being back in his Bad Guy mask again. He may not have particularly liked carrying out that order, but he didn't miss the opportunity to add to his image.

But, yes, he is a lot more complex than that. I don't like it when people try to make him sound liek a big fluffy cuddly puppy. He is an ambiguus character.

Will he get there at all? My personal guess is that Sansa manages to "do an Arya" and get away somehow. Still, this is all just vague speculation, mind you.

but why would Sansa want to leave? Petyr has provided her with a place of safety, she is quite grateful to him, although she loaths his sexual attention. I believe Sansa has been placed in the Eyrie to gather evidence to take down Petyr Baelish, and Sandor telling her about his betrayal of her father.

and hopefully

Stannis telling the world about the mistreatment of Jeyne Poole

will be one of the things that cause Sansa to add 1+1

[kephv]

What's more interesting is that this is clearly a decision that he's tormented about -- this becomes evident in his SoS chapters with Arya. It's one of the last things on his mind as he's dying.

Is he? He doesn't even remember his name when Arya firsts mentions him. He tells Arya that because he wanted her to kill him.

And that from someone who clearly is a fan of Arya. :lmao:

Sandor has done things that are a hundred times more despicable than what Arya has. Twisted was about right.

[Bad Dog]

What people complain about with Sandor are usually pretty much the same one-sided complaints we hear about Arya. (Yes, as you can tell, I like Arya.) Well, duh, he isn't a fluffy bunny. Wouldn't be such an interesting character by far if he was.

(Also, why would anyone come into a character discussion thread and troll like that?)

And yes, if I recall that correctly, he reveals that he is rather ambivalet about Mycah when he's delirious. (But since I have to be off to Munich soon, there's no time to look it up right now, sorry. Might not be on for a few days too, btw.)

@ voodooqueen: Sansa might want to leave the Vale because she grows sick of Littlefinger's advances, because Harry might turn out to be an utter git, because Robert is rather unbearable, and who knows what else GRRM might yet throw at her. But yes, she'll have to be pushed very strongly to run for it. At this point, it's all idle speculation anyway.

[Tini]

Why would Sandor be needed for proving that Arya at Winterfell is a fake? For Lady Stoneheart?

The fake Arya escaped with Theon from Winterfell in ADWD after all. It looked as if she joined Stannis' host. Therefore it should not remain a secret for much longer that the real Arya never was at Winterfell.

Sansa might not want to leave the Vale but she might be abducted. Didn't Ser Shadrich the Mad Mouse join Littlefinger? When he met Brienne, he was after the money that Cersei offered for catching Sansa. I guess it was his need for money that made him join Littlefinger. Even so he might still be looking for Sansa, and he might return to his previous plan if he finds out who Alayne Stone really is.

[voodooqueen126]

Why would Sandor be needed for proving that Arya at Winterfell is a fake? For Lady Stoneheart?

The fake Arya escaped with Theon from Winterfell in ADWD after all. It looked as if she joined Stannis' host. Therefore it should not remain a secret for much longer that the real Arya never was at Winterfell.

Sansa might not want to leave the Vale but she might be abducted. Didn't Ser Shadrich the Mad Mouse join Littlefinger? When he met Brienne, he was after the money that Cersei offered for catching Sansa. I guess it was his need for money that made him join Littlefinger. Even so he might still be looking for Sansa, and he might return to his previous plan if he finds out who Alayne Stone really is.

Much as I love the idea of Sansa being abducted by Ser Shadrich and then rescued by Sandor before anything untoward can happen so that she can ride off into the Sunset...

She is in the Vale for a reason and that reason is to destroy Littlefinger. Sandor needs to come to her.

[1234567]

Much as I love the idea of Sansa being abducted by Ser Shadrich and then rescued by Sandor before anything untoward can happen so that she can ride off into the Sunset...

She is in the Vale for a reason and that reason is to destroy Littlefinger. Sandor needs to come to her.

It seems very up in the air if Sandor will come back into the story at all and if he does, what part of his previous arc it would entail: Sansa, BWB, R'hllor or Gregorstein. However much it would be nice if he rescued Sansa, her arc seems to be heading towards being

Queen, even if it is only for a short time, by marrying Aegon.