Unpopular Opinions IV

[ZacharyB]

I can understand this point of view, but I prefer to think about them as people because, on the whole, Martin has done a fantastic job of making them realistic and believable. As long as people realize that nothing is really at stake in arguments over the motives or actions of characters, I don't think it does any harm.

True. I think there are some people that find them too realistic or believable. A lot of people seem to think that just because they disagree with a character's decisions means they have to loathe that character incessantly. Jamie is a great example. Just because he's done some things that they disagree with, they feel like they have to hate him because of their own moral code.

That definitely isn't true for a lot of the people in this thread, before I have people throwing stones at me/hitting me with sledgehammers. A lot of people do very well with judging Jamie without bringing themselves into it here. :)

[Alexia]

True. I think there are some people that find them too realistic or believable. A lot of people seem to think that just because they disagree with a character's decisions means they have to loathe that character incessantly. Jamie is a great example. Just because he's done some things that they disagree with, they feel like they have to hate him because of their own moral code.

That definitely isn't true for a lot of the people in this thread, before I have people throwing stones at me/hitting me with sledgehammers. A lot of people do very well with judging Jamie without bringing themselves into it here. :)

I don't think that's the case for *most* people. For example, I despise Jaime and I'm not so keen on Tyrion anymore either, but I adore Cersei. And I want her to burn the Sept of Baelor with wildfire, kill the High Septon, de-tongue those nasty septas, and annihilate Flea Bottom. Sandor does pretty much nothing in line with my moral code but I love him anyway and want to see him get the girl and win the day.

As for Jaime, I started becoming rather fond of him (though still thinking he needed to die a terrible death) by the end of ASOS. Then, in AFFC I read lots of unfortunate stuff but the one that stands out the most is how he broke his oath to Catelyn (whatever, conflicting oaths and he had to prioritize) and then started trying to congratulate himself on how he kept it. I came unglued with outrage. :tantrum:

[Bad Dog]

Yeah, there was a time, back when we had the first thread, when people weren't stoned (or sledgehammered)... Though, to be honest, as a general rule (and for every fandom!) there are people who simply deserve to be sledgehammered, because, just as Zachary said, WHAT THE BLOODY HELL WAS THAT BOOK YOU'VE BEEN READING??? "ICE AND FIRE IN BLACK AND WHITE"? OR EVEN "THE GAME OF THRONES TV SHOW FOR DUMMIES"? (/capslock of literate fanboy rant)

There's the fanatical shippers, the fanatical bashers (usually being one automatically makes you the other, too), the conspiracy theoreticians, those who seek deeper meaning in every comma, those who read a feminist/existentialist/anarchist/nihilist/whatever-ist world view into everything, those who channel their daddy issues into the material, those who rewrite stuff in their head and firmly declare it canon, those who claim to know the fandom better than the author himself...

That said, everybody is entitled to his/her own opinion, and I'll let him/her voice it - as long as he/she tolerates mine.

[Floria]

LF is really just as bad as Tyrion, he just looks more attractive. He's done absolutely heinous things to her family and Jeyne Poole, and is just as ugly on the inside as Tyrion is on the outside. Plus, there's a decent chance he'll try to kill her or take some hideous revenge on her if/when she finally tells him NO.

Even Jon has left tons of sobbing wildling widows. Children will ask stuff like "When does daddy come back from the Wall?" and they will start crying. But if LF has to die, than please in the last book, because he is a nice contrast to all the oh-so-noble-i-haz-to-rescue-world-characters. The question is, what drives the characters? LF wants his teenie love, Cersei wants to protect her children, Arya wants bloody revenge (not really noble), Jon wants to rescue the realm of men (yawn) , Dany wants to rescue the slaves (and I bet later the realm), Brienne and Jamie want to fullfill their noble quests (?), Tyrion wants his first wife back and Bran wants to fly. Imho Arya has one of the most ugliest motives, but she is still one of the most beloved characters.

[SnowStorm]

This thread scares me...

I hope Brienne doesn't end up with Sor Hyle. It just makes me think of those Simpsons episodes where Lisa ends up with Milhouse. Ugh. I think it should be either Jamie or no one, and it should be kept platonic!

As for an unpopular opinion, I hope Euron and Victarion die so that either Asha or Theon can become rulers of the Iron Islands.

Oh and I really hate the thought of any Sansa-Weirdo/Pedo relationship. Just, eww! She deserves better too, after all that she's been through... poor Sansa.

[mcb]

Cersei did not cheat on Jaime. Cersei cheated on Robert with Jaime. Jaime was Cersei's lover, but he was also her brother first. He should have put his jealousy aside and gone to help her as a brother, not spurned her in her time of greatest need.

Jaime did not have some exclusive say on what Cersei could and could not do with her vagina. Many people are cheated on daily, it doesn't mean that you simply blank the other person when they are in peril.

If we toss aside their status as ex-lovers and think about it as just brother-sister thing, then Cersei is entitled to all the loyalty and devotion she's shown Jaime and Tyrion. And that amounts to... could you remind me, please? Because I'm drawing a blank here.

3) He's not obligated to keep her in power, by no means. He'd be fully in the right to remove her from power and send her to Casterly Rock.

No, he wouldn't be. He's just a glorified bodyguard. The only way he could remove her from power is the same way he did Aerys. Not that I would mind if he did.

4) To prevent Tyrell control over his son/nephew. They have their claws firmly in Tommen now, and no intention of letting go. Poor kiddo.

And that would be bad for him (or for the kingdom) why? True, Tommen Technically Baratheon would become a Tyrell pawn, instead of a Lannister pawn, which is pretty much the same thing. Only with less abuse than he got from World's Best Mom.

[ZacharyB]

I don't think that's the case for *most* people. For example, I despise Jaime and I'm not so keen on Tyrion anymore either, but I adore Cersei. And I want her to burn the Sept of Baelor with wildfire, kill the High Septon, de-tongue those nasty septas, and annihilate Flea Bottom. Sandor does pretty much nothing in line with my moral code but I love him anyway and want to see him get the girl and win the day.

As for Jaime, I started becoming rather fond of him (though still thinking he needed to die a terrible death) by the end of ASOS. Then, in AFFC I read lots of unfortunate stuff but the one that stands out the most is how he broke his oath to Catelyn (whatever, conflicting oaths and he had to prioritize) and then started trying to congratulate himself on how he kept it. I came unglued with outrage. :tantrum:

I seem to see it a lot. People that hate Jamie for no reason other than "HE THREW A POOR KID OUT A WINDOW FOR PEEKING!!" I tend to glaze over a lot of the Jamie arguments for that very reason though, so maybe I've just been missing out. :P

Anyway, Jamie being so messed up like that is why I love him so much. He's such an anti-hero (or maybe anti-villain would be the better term), and it's clear there's something messed up in his head that we don't see due to unreliable narrator syndrome.

[Alexia]

I seem to see it a lot. People that hate Jamie for no reason other than "HE THREW A POOR KID OUT A WINDOW FOR PEEKING!!" I tend to glaze over a lot of the Jamie arguments for that very reason though, so maybe I've just been missing out. :P

I dunno, being introduced to a character throwing a small child from a tower window after said child catches him in the act of treasonous incest, then bragging about it to the child's mother, then thinking that he came to regret it because of how much grief his sex partner gave him over it... that seems like a very valid thing for people to not be able to get past. And generally speaking, I don't think that's only reason he's disliked.

[Many and More]

True, Tommen Technically Baratheon would become a Tyrell pawn, instead of a Lannister pawn, which is pretty much the same thing. Only with less abuse than he got from World's Best Mom.

So you're saying that Cersei abused Tommen? Now you're just making stuff up. :rolleyes:

[Knight of Ashes]

NVM

[The King in the South]

Heres another one, because this thread is like 99% debating instead of posting opinions now.

I wish every Arya chapter in AFFC had been replaced with more Brienne chapters.

[Melifeather]

Even Jon has left tons of sobbing wildling widows. Children will ask stuff like "When does daddy come back from the Wall?" and they will start crying. But if LF has to die, than please in the last book, because he is a nice contrast to all the oh-so-noble-i-haz-to-rescue-world-characters. The question is, what drives the characters? LF wants his teenie love, Cersei wants to protect her children, Arya wants bloody revenge (not really noble), Jon wants to rescue the realm of men (yawn) , Dany wants to rescue the slaves (and I bet later the realm), Brienne and Jamie want to fullfill their noble quests (?), Tyrion wants his first wife back and Bran wants to fly. Imho Arya has one of the most ugliest motives, but she is still one of the most beloved characters.

I don't think I'm alone in lusting right along with Arya in her quest for revenge. Noble? Perhaps not...but, I'm rooting for her.

[ZacharyB]

I dunno, being introduced to a character throwing a small child from a tower window after said child catches him in the act of treasonous incest, then bragging about it to the child's mother, then thinking that he came to regret it because of how much grief his sex partner gave him over it... that seems like a very valid thing for people to not be able to get past. And generally speaking, I don't think that's only reason he's disliked.

Oh, I wasn't saying that throwing him out of a window isn't a reason to dislike Jamie. It's a perfectly valid reason. I'm just saying that there are some people who don't get past that basic level of thinking of "He threw poor old Bran out a window :'(." To me, it's not the event that's bothersome (as he...sort of had justification, since the kid just found he was screwing his sister and heard them talking about things that the Starks probably would not be pleased to hear) but how Jamie reacts without a hint of remorse and still doesn't to this day.

And yeah, there are a lot more, as you all have proven. It just seems like a lot of the anti-Jamie (and the pro-Jamie arguments, since there really isn't anything pro about him) I see around here are flimsy and repetitive. I prefer to look past Jamie's faults and enjoy reading about him despite (and because of) them anyway. The only time I ever really don't like a character is if they're underdeveloped, not plausible, and boring

(Quentyn for example, about the former and the latter anyway).

edit to spoiler ADWD spoilers (formal spoiler announcment plz :( )

[Alexia]

Heres another one, because this thread is like 99% debating instead of posting opinions now.

I wish every Arya chapter in AFFC had been replaced with more Brienne chapters.

:shocked:

I think its time to break out the pitchforks, and the tar and feathers. Seriously? Brienne's chapters were so damned slow, and Arya finally started getting good in AFFC.

[brashcandy]

You know, if the mods had just included a "Garbage" button next to the "Like" button it would save most of us a lot of hours on this forum. :lol:

[Xray the Enforcer]

[mod] Just a general reminder to the entire thread to keep it civil, please. Thank you. [/mod]

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

:shocked:

I think its time to break out the pitchforks, and the tar and feathers. Seriously? Brienne's chapters were so damned slow, and Arya finally started getting good in AFFC.

ORLY???? Arya totally jumped the shark in AFFC, imo. And ADWD was no improvement. However I haven't really enjoyed her chapters (except for Gendry) since AGOT.

Brienne's chapters >>>> Arya's. Not that they were actually that good though, I wish neither of them had been PoV's in AFFC/ADWD.

[Raksha the Demon]

So you're saying that Cersei abused Tommen? Now you're just making stuff up. :rolleyes:

I wouldn't say that Cersei abused Tommen; but she was not a particularly good mother to him. She unfavorably compares him to her precious Joffrey more than once, thinking how clumsy Tommen is when Joffrey was so graceful and strong and tall for his age; but she does not seem to have noticed that Joffrey used to bully Tommen. She never praises Tommen for his strengths - he's a feisty, resilient kid who picks himself up after he falls off the horse, despite hearing laughter, and gets on the horse (or pony, whatever he rode at the tournament) again. He wants to enjoy life, to dance at his own wedding (which Margaery and her family encourage; all Cersei can think of is how clumsy he looks and how he is being made a fool of), to ride, to go into the city and see his people, and Cersei keeps coddling him and reining him in. Some caution is necessary; and I can understand Cersei's fear after losing Joffrey, but she is not going to strengthen Tommen by encasing him in a psychic and physical cocoon. Margaery seems to have good instincts where Tommen is concerned, and I doubt she is trying to harm him; since her future as Queen of Westeros depends on Tommen eventually growing up healthy and being a successful king.

[The King in the South]

:shocked:

I think its time to break out the pitchforks, and the tar and feathers. Seriously? Brienne's chapters were so damned slow, and Arya finally started getting good in AFFC.

The whole 10 year old becoming a seasoned magical super killer does not really fly with me. Especially since it's probably an useless storyline since there is no way she's going to be the best killer by the time the series is over (Which means she isn't going to go kill Cersei or whomever like people seem to think. Why the hell would you send one of your least trained acolytes on such an important job), and if she ends up leaving the FM before that....then what the hell was the point?

At least with Brienne we got a lot backstory and saw the world through the peasant's eyes for once. And I really like Podrick Payne.

[brashcandy]

ORLY???? Arya totally jumped the shark in AFFC, imo. And ADWD was no improvement. However I haven't really enjoyed her chapters (except for Gendry) since AGOT.

Brienne's chapters >>>> Arya's. Not that they were actually that good though, I wish neither of them had been PoV's in AFFC/ADWD.

I'm telling you - Arya's chapters were so INCREDIBLY ANNOYING in AFFC :) Honestly, the nonsense with "No one", Cat of the Canals, and a waif... nope nope.