Unpopular Opinions IV

[holding]

In general, a great deal is done to inspire sympathy for Jaime (especially in AFFC,) next to nothing to inspire sympathy or even mild understanding for Cersei.

Out of interest, do you still think this is true after her chapters in ADWD? I feel like AFFC spends its first two-thirds making you hate Cersei and feel sorry for Jaime, but then the last third of AFFC and the entirety of ADWD are about Jaime being an ass and Cersei being sympathetic. But then, I try to go by my own reading of the actual text as opposed to listening to the (admittedly horrifying) fan reactions. Looking at the text itself, I genuinely don't think we're supposed to love Tyrion and Jaime and think Cersei's an evil bitch whore who needs to die. Then I come online and think maybe I'm reading something different.

[brashcandy]

Anyone who was part of the first thread before it deteriorated into arguing as well (or at least read the first post) would be quite confused seeing the thread now. :lol:

Yeah next time it should be called "Unpopular Opinions that you will not be allowed to make" :)

[ZacharyB]

Out of interest, do you still think this is true after her chapters in ADWD? I feel like AFFC spends its first two-thirds making you hate Cersei and feel sorry for Jaime, but then the last third of AFFC and the entirety of ADWD are about Jaime being an ass and Cersei being sympathetic. But then, I try to go by my own reading of the actual text as opposed to listening to the (admittedly horrifying) fan reactions. Looking at the text itself, I genuinely don't think we're supposed to love Tyrion and Jaime and think Cersei's an evil bitch whore who needs to die. Then I come online and think maybe I'm reading something different.

Heh. Sometimes when I read this forum I'm like "...Has GrrM been writing another series that I picked up?"

Yeah next time it should be called "Unpopular Opinions that you will not be allowed to make" :)

"Unpopular Opinions that we will STONE you (with stones) for having."

[Verboten]

Out of interest, do you still think this is true after her chapters in ADWD? I feel like AFFC spends its first two-thirds making you hate Cersei and feel sorry for Jaime, but then the last third of AFFC and the entirety of ADWD are about Jaime being an ass and Cersei being sympathetic. But then, I try to go by my own reading of the actual text as opposed to listening to the (admittedly horrifying) fan reactions. Looking at the text itself, I genuinely don't think we're supposed to love Tyrion and Jaime and think Cersei's an evil bitch whore who needs to die. Then I come online and think maybe I'm reading something different.

Go with your own feelings. Every person has a unique view of the world and this is transferred to how you read the books. This is a good thing, and you shouldn't let others influence that.

[Verboten]

Heh. Sometimes when I read this forum I'm like "...Has GrrM been writing another series that I picked up?"

"Unpopular Opinions that we will STONE you (with stones) for having."

No we use sledgehammers now, geez get with the program.

[brashcandy]

Out of interest, do you still think this is true after her chapters in ADWD? I feel like AFFC spends its first two-thirds making you hate Cersei and feel sorry for Jaime, but then the last third of AFFC and the entirety of ADWD are about Jaime being an ass and Cersei being sympathetic. But then, I try to go by my own reading of the actual text as opposed to listening to the (admittedly horrifying) fan reactions. Looking at the text itself, I genuinely don't think we're supposed to love Tyrion and Jaime and think Cersei's an evil bitch whore who needs to die. Then I come online and think maybe I'm reading something different.

I do think that ADWD portrayed her sympathetically.. and this is why I don't understand why people don't see that Martin has to be setting her up to rise again - even if it is for an eventual fall as the prophecy outlines.

I came out of ADWD thinking jeez, you know, I can at least understand people like Cersei who might be evil for evil's sake - but people like the High Septon and those septas who cloak it under "religion" and "morality" are the really dangerous ones.

[1234567]

The vast marjority of fans, I'd say, sympathize greatly with Jaime, and blame Cersei for her sexual betrayal of him more than for any of her truly evil deeds. (See any of the countless Cersei hate threads on these boards, in particular one entitled "Why I Hate Cersie." In the latter thread, roughly 99 out of 100 people cite Cersei's sexual infidelity to Jaime as the #1 reason why they loathe her, also noting how her girlhood crush on Rhaegar was evidence that "she was even unfaithful to him in her heart."

Out of curiosity (as I haven't read those threads) do the same people advocate and Brienne / Jaime romance or his ditching of Cersei to find someone better? It seems their maybe a dichotomy where Cersei is scorned for her affairs and sexual betrayal, while the same people are actively encouraging Jaime to do the same.

[Tammy]

Sansa personally chopped off Ned's head!

I knew that description of Ilyn Payne was off a little. I just knew it!!!

[Sevumar]

Out of interest, do you still think this is true after her chapters in ADWD? I feel like AFFC spends its first two-thirds making you hate Cersei and feel sorry for Jaime, but then the last third of AFFC and the entirety of ADWD are about Jaime being an ass and Cersei being sympathetic. But then, I try to go by my own reading of the actual text as opposed to listening to the (admittedly horrifying) fan reactions. Looking at the text itself, I genuinely don't think we're supposed to love Tyrion and Jaime and think Cersei's an evil bitch whore who needs to die. Then I come online and think maybe I'm reading something different.

I'm not sure where Jaime is an ass in ADWD. He actually handles the whole Blackwood situation quite deftly. Cersei (like Tyrion and Jorah) becomes more sympathetic because she suffers, not because there's any real evidence she's undergoing any important character changes.

[Floria]

If it was because he is a minor then wouldn't Sansa count as a minor too? On that account it could be annuled. Or if it was because he is a minor and thus should have Tywins acceptance, again Sansa was a minor and the head of her family (Robb) didn't give consent.

I guess, the crimes Tyrion is accused of would be enough to justify an annulment of a non-consumated marriage.

So why is there a debate about Harry-the-Heir, what is in it for LF? Certainly not a happy ending for Sansa!

No idea. I always assumed, that LF plotted and murdred his way up to get his hands on Catelyn or young-Catelyn aka Sansa. Maybe he is a little bit too obssessed with them, but he is a smart guy and chapters involving him are fun to read. Is it an unpopular opinion to root for LF that all his stalking efforts may pay off in the end? He marries Sansa and both live a long and happy life with many babies? :P

[holding]

Heh. Sometimes when I read this forum I'm like "...Has GrrM been writing another series that I picked up?"

Yup. And it seems wrong to assume that everybody else is reading wrong, but... everyone else is reading wrong.

Out of curiosity (as I haven't read those threads) do the same people advocate and Brienne / Jaime romance or his ditching of Cersei to find someone better?

I think there's an overlap between people who think Cersei is an evil whore who whores, and people who want Jaime and Brienne to get married and have babies. And each to their own, I guess. Jaime/Brienne is a ship I find less actively disturbing (see: Sansa/Tyrion, Sansa/Littlefinger, Sansa/Anyone who wants to rape her) and more hilarious. Like, it could not be more of a bromance. I am really hoping though that they don't end up together, if only because that would make Brienne's entire arc the plot of a bad high school movie.

ETA:

I'm not sure where Jaime is an ass in ADWD. He actually handles the whole Blackwood situation quite deftly.

I was kind of being facetious, but also referring specifically to his relationship with Cersei. I don't want to keep talking about Jaime and Cersei because I'm starting to bore myself, but I think that for the first two-thirds of AFFC, we don't hear much of Cersei's view of Jaime. All the important stuff between them happens in his chapters so we know what he's thinking of her, but not her of him. And when she does think stuff, it tends to be unpleasant, and so we're shown a really one-sided relationship, which makes us feel bad for poor Jaime who has just spent the entire previous book being desperately in love. But then in the last third, and throughout ADWD, GRRM suddenly starts letting us see what Cersei actually feels about Jaime and... it's actually really sweet. And that's just about the time Jaime goes off on a jealous rampage about what a whore she is, so I can only assume it's deliberate. Like, GRRM could have carried on having her be cold and distant and not thinking about Jaime at all, but he doesn't, he has her dream sweet dreams where Jaime is her husband and their son is still alive, etc. Which makes me think that we aren't supposed to be entirely on Team Jaime, the way we were at the start.

[Knight of Ashes]

Is it an unpopular opinion to root for LF that all his stalking efforts may pay off in the end? He marries Sansa and both live a long and happy life with many babies? :P

I'll risk life and limb here and say yes.

[brashcandy]

Out of curiosity (as I haven't read those threads) do the same people advocate and Brienne / Jaime romance or his ditching of Cersei to find someone better? It seems their maybe a dichotomy where Cersei is scorned for her affairs and sexual betrayal, while the same people are actively encouraging Jaime to do the same.

The thing is Rapsie is that Brienne actually has more chemistry with Ser Hyle... I hope GRRM realises this and doesn't go for popular fandom, except in the case of coughsansaandsandorcough, in which case it is totally deserved, foreshadowed, predictable, expected, obvious, natural, ok I'll stop

:D

[1234567]

The thing is Rapsie is that Brienne actually has more chemistry with Ser Hyle... I hope GRRM realises this and doesn't go for popular fandom, except in the case of coughsansaandsandorcough, in which case it is totally deserved, foreshadowed, predictable, expected, obvious, natural, ok I'll stop :D

I have to agree about Ser Hyle and Brienne.....quietly muttering agreement about the second one, for fear of invoking wrath.

[1234567]

Is it an unpopular opinion to root for LF that all his stalking efforts may pay off in the end? He marries Sansa and both live a long and happy life with many babies? :P

I suspect that maybe ever so slightly unpopular. Although I'd rather see Sansa with LF than Tyrion. (Running to hide from rocks now)

[Woman of War]

"I never really judge character's as people anyway. They're characters. Even characters whose actions I despise still make my favorite character list."

Thank you, ZacharyB THIS HAD TO BE SAID

[Melifeather]

Go with your own feelings. Every person has a unique view of the world and this is transferred to how you read the books. This is a good thing, and you shouldn't let others influence that.

yeah, right...we're just fucking stupid if we have our own opinions....

[Sevumar]

"I never really judge character's as people anyway. They're characters. Even characters whose actions I despise still make my favorite character list."

Thank you, ZacharyB THIS HAD TO BE SAID

I can understand this point of view, but I prefer to think about them as people because, on the whole, Martin has done a fantastic job of making them realistic and believable. As long as people realize that nothing is really at stake in arguments over the motives or actions of characters, I don't think it does any harm.

[Alexia]

I suspect that maybe ever so slightly unpopular. Although I'd rather see Sansa with LF than Tyrion. (Running to hide from rocks now)

LF is really just as bad as Tyrion, he just looks more attractive. He's done absolutely heinous things to her family and Jeyne Poole, and is just as ugly on the inside as Tyrion is on the outside. Plus, there's a decent chance he'll try to kill her or take some hideous revenge on her if/when she finally tells him NO.

The thing is Rapsie is that Brienne actually has more chemistry with Ser Hyle... I hope GRRM realises this and doesn't go for popular fandom, except in the case of coughsansaandsandorcough, in which case it is totally deserved, foreshadowed, predictable, expected, obvious, natural, ok I'll stop

If Brienne winds up with anyone, I think it'll be Hyle. I think she really liked him and that's why she was so angry with him over the bet (which was pretty insulting and a huge mistake on Hyle's part). But I think they could be good together.

And each to their own, I guess. Jaime/Brienne is a ship I find less actively disturbing and more hilarious. Like, it could not be more of a bromance. I am really hoping though that they don't end up together, if only because that would make Brienne's entire arc the plot of a bad high school movie.

Well, I wouldn't go so far as to call it a bromance because Brienne has a crush on him. I'd be interested if it happened, but logically speaking I don't think it will. People have "types" and I don't see Jaime going for a woman like Cersei to a woman like Brienne. It just doesn't make logical sense to me.

I can understand this point of view, but I prefer to think about them as people because, on the whole, Martin has done a fantastic job of making them realistic and believable. As long as people realize that nothing is really at stake in arguments over the motives or actions of characters, I don't think it does any harm.

:agree:

Rather a compliment to the author when people argue about the motives and actions of characters as though they are real people, anyway.

[holding]

The thing is Rapsie is that Brienne actually has more chemistry with Ser Hyle

Yay! I'm SO on Team Brienne/Hyle! God I hope he's still alive.

My other favourite ship (besides Jaime/Cersei which at this point may be fairly obvious) is Jorah/Dany. I know it's wrong, but I can't help myself - I just want them to kiss and make up so he can stop having sex with random silver haired prostitutes.