Unpopular Opinions IV

[brashcandy]

Quentyn Martell, with his 4 measly POV chapters, to be a more believable, sympathetic, and compelling character than Danerys has been in her four books worth of POV’s combined.

then surely you must read again. There was nothing compelling about Quentyn Martell, except perhaps in the way he died. He was utterly predictable and to suggest that he's more sympathetic than a girl who was on the run for all of her life, with a psychotic brother for company, and gets sold into a marriage at 13 yrs old is frankly puzzling.

One thing that is blatantly obvious about Dany, the woman whom GRRM has specifically pointed to as Cersei’s foil, is that she does not really WANT power. She is perfectly satisfied (in AGOT) playing the role of the conventional wife and mother. Then, when Viserys dies, she reflects that being Drogo’s wife and the mother of his children would be enough for any woman—however, unfortunately, she, Dany, has the duty to restore her family legacy. (“If I were not the blood of the dragon, she thought wistfully, this could be my home. She was Khaleeesi, she had a strong man and a swift horse, handmaids to serve her, warriors to keep her safe, an honored place in the dosh khaleen awaiting her when she grew old… and in her womb grew a son...That should be enough for any woman... but not for the dragon. With Viserys gone, Danerys was the last, the very last.” (AGOT, p. 489.) Power, war, queenship—she does not want these things, only her son and stars. Then her husband dies, and she gains a miraculous trio of Dragons, which allow her to seize power, whatever her own capabilities. She never expresses a desire to seize power, and never really actively seeks it out. When she does seize power, it is to rescue people and usurp horrific, almost inhumanly monstrous leaders.

Did I miss the memo when GRRM specifically pointed to Dany as Cersei's foil? Anyways, it's no matter. We can compare and contrast these women as we like, but we cannot get away from the fact that Dany is still a very young girl whilst Cersei is a grown woman. There are certain expectations that therefore come with their actions. Dany has been sold into a marriage and it worked out well for the most part. She is capable of adapting and making peace with her circumstances which actually speaks a lot to her maturity. That she longs for a peaceful life with her husband and son is not hard to fathom given how much she has suffered in the past due to constant uprooting and fear.

That Cersei does not long for these simple pleasures is because she's had her fill of them. She's grown up being indulged, admired and flattered. Her quest for power is necessarily a lot more urgent than Dany's because she feels as though she's been denied all her life. She had to marry a man whom she could not love and who could not love her. She's embittered by marriage and men in general. However, Cersei could have very easily been in Dany's position if she had married Rhaegar. She certainly seemed like she would have been content raising Rhaegar's babies and living life as his Queen quietly, but fate brought her Robert and the rest is history.

Now, I don't know what you mean by Dany "gains a miraculous trio of Dragons". I don't know why people find it necessary to belittle and undermine Dany's effort and sacrifice here. The girl lost her husband and son, and had to walk into a fire to give birth to these dragons. There was nothing miraculous about it.

And then, when she is queen,

she frequently reflects on how she is tired of being strong all the time, just wants to get laid, etc. She girlishly obsesses over her lover and then, after sleeping with him a few times, again thinks (like she did earlier with Drogo) that most women (including herself) would be only too happy to make Daario their world; to run off with him and screw him happily forever. (“If she had been some ordinary woman, she would gladly have spent her whole life touching Daario, tracing his scars and making him telling her how he’d come by every one. I would give up my crown if he asked it of me, Dany thought… but he had not asked it, and never would. Daario might whisper words of love when the two of them were as one, but she knew it was the dragon queen he loved. If I gave up my crown, he would not want me.” (ADWD, 565.) In short, the supposedly empowered Danerys never seeks out power, never truly desires it, only seizes it for altruistic reasons, dislikes having it when she has it. And it is made painfully clear that what she wants more than anything is to settle into a romantic relationship with the traditional male/ female power structure, where she will fulfill the submissive role.

This is okay in and of itself. But it becomes problematic when one recalls that Dany is frequently cited as the paragon of a positively drawn ambitious female in these books. And the fact that GRRM has expressly said that he intended to draw a parallel between Cersei and Danery’s characters. People have said that these books show no bias against ambitious females, and that the only difference between Dany and Cersei is that Dany has compassion, while Cersei lacks it. I’d argue that this is not the case—there are many differences between Dany and Cersei. Namely, Dany worshipped her husband, wanted to bear his children, happily assumed the submissive role in her relationship, never wanted power, and only seeks it because of feelings of duty and a desire to rescue those in peril. In contrast, Cersei has rejected her submissive role and rebelled against her husband every step of the way, and ostensibly wants power more than love with a man.

You've performed an unfair reading of Daenerys here. Yes, she frequently thinks of how she would like to run off with Daario, but that doesn't mean that she's not ambitious, or doesn't take her role as Queen seriously, it just means that she was an infatuated young girl, who rightly felt burdened by the responsibilities and expectations that she had to bear. Dany is an example of a positively drawn ambitious female, however, many people think she's quite ruthless and has the potential, especially after ADWD to become evil/immoral. Dany didn't seek power because she wanted to rescue those in peril, it's her position of power that allows her to rescue those in peril. She seeks power because it is her birthright (duty as you indicated), and initially she wants to see that her son gets what he deserves, but she actually shows that she will not submit to her husband in terms of the injustices perpetuated by his people on helpless women.

The problem is that with Cersei it's always all or nothing. She cannot reach compromise, she will not temper her responses and she lacks any empathy for the suffering of others. Cersei also does not have a healthy attitude to sex. Whether through her marriage to Robert, or not, Cersei can only find pleasure in her brother's bed, whereas Dany actively enjoys sex, doesn't use it to manipulate or bribe others, and as such, can experience the full pleasures that it has to offer. Having said this, your assertion that all Dany wants is to settle into a romantic relationship where she can fulfil the submissive role does not hold up when we consider Dany as a whole.

She flirts with the idea that she would give it all up for Daario, but what she realises is that her power is too important, not only to him, but to her as well.

Remember that Dany chained up her dragons in ADWD, trying very hard to deny that aspect of her personality and her power. Ultimately, at the end, she realises that she cannot, and must embrace her destiny as the dragon. She would never have been happy simply being Daario's wife, but it was a tempting fantasy. Remember when she is delirious and she speaks to Jorah telling him how she simply wanted to be a young girl, to plant trees and watch them grow. These are idyllic fantasies that she realises she could never legitimately embrace. It is profoundly absurd to suggest that because Dany expresses interest in remaining with Daario that ALL she wants is a some fairytale romance that will allow her play the good wife. Not only is this ridiculous, but these are the kinds of readings that foster sexist assumptions about women

So many posters trumpet Margary and Olenna as evidence that the author supports female ambition and women in powers, but evidence actually points to the opposite conclusion. Comparing the ostentatiously smart, capable Queen of thorns and Margary with the idiotic, inept Cersei (as GRRM so obviously does in AFFC) is an obvious device. Both Margary and Olenna work strictly behind the scenes, more than happy to stick to their socially assigned position as women and play submissive roles. (The worthy Danerys, it is also worth mentioning, only takes power when it is thrust into her hands, and continues to seize it because she feels she must, and for altruistic reasons.) Most significantly, they have no real ambition for power for themselves. They don’t even show the indication to want to increase power for their families. All of their behind the scenes scheming basically amounts to attempts to keep themselves and their loved ones safe, after Mace Tyrell has schemed and placed them in danger. This is in staunch contrast to the stupid, inept Cersei who so ostensibly wants power for herself, and takes steps to get it.

But these women do represent GRRM's portrayal of women with powers, and they are ambitious. Just because Lady Olenna is looking out for her family doesn't mean that she was never genuinely ambitious, but she's a grandmother now - Grandmothers normally act in this very way. It's not about them anymore, it's about ensuring the safety of the next generation. LF may claim that Margaery doesn't care much about her crown, but we the readers see that this is actually far from the truth. She wants to be a good Queen and goes about courting the smallfolk and trying to encourage her boy husband to take a more active part in the affairs of the realm.

Margaery and Olenna were actively involved in the plot to kill Joffrey so I don't know what is submissive about that or evidence that they're happy with their assigned social roles. If they act behind the scenes, it's because they're smart, not because they're not ambitious. Cersei's lust for power for herself does not negate or make irrelevant other ambitious females in the series. And I think we forget that a lot of the reasons why Cersei is so frantic is because she too is very worried over her children.

And wasn't the Sansa/Willas plot a bold example of how Lady Olenna was trying to gain more power for her family? I can assure you that they were not doing it out of some altruistic desire to help Sansa Stark escape the Lannisters. Margaery doesn't appear too worried that she has to marry a boy King, because she's committed to increasing power for her family.

When has power ever been thrust into Dany's hands? The girl started out being sold into a marriage! She had no power outside of her name and her position as Khal Drogo's wife, and he basically came to force himself on her every night. Every aspect of her power has come from her being a victim first. No one gave her power, she took it every step of the way.

Now, if you feel that Cersei underwent a character assassination in AFFC by the author then fine, but trying to pick apart, undermine and invalidate the very real dangers and efforts that other women have faced and made throughout the series will not win you any points. We don't just have AFFC to base opinions about Cersei's character on.

And I like both Dany and Cersei; I think they've each had to battle with some unfortunate events and people in their lives, but we cannot forget just how young Dany is, and that she's a remarkably different person and in even more challenging circumstances than Cersei. I actually prefer to compare Dany and Sansa rather than Dany and Cersei. I think that is a more rewarding exercise on the whole, as both are young girls, started out as pawns, married for their birthrights and have become (Dany) or in the process of becoming (Sansa) major political players.

[Tini]

I actually prefer to compare Dany and Sansa rather than Dany and Cersei. I think that is a more rewarding exercise on the whole, as both are young girls, started out as pawns, married for their birthrights and have become (Dany) or in the process of becoming (Sansa) major political players.

Reading this, I realized that Cersei is no different from them, despite the apparent difference in age.

In some respects Cersei is actually younger than Dany and Sansa. Dany started developing her independence after the death of her brother Viserys who filled the father-role for her, and the death of her first husband. Sansa started developing hers after her father's death. She was forced into marrying Tyrion, but Cersei's marriage was much worse, and lasted longer. Sansa had no one to defend her against Tywin Lannister... but neither did Cersei. Cersei's father died more recently than Viserys and Lord Eddard, and it seems Cersei only started developing her own independence after he died.

She may be 20 years older than Sansa and Dany, but her reaction to Tywin's plans to find her another suitable husband shows that she had no more independence than those two girls. She was just as (or even more) immature as they were, but held much more power.

This must be the first time that I actually feel sorry for Cersei.

[King_In_The_North]

Queen Cersei I

The problem with Cersei is indeed that she wants power - wants it that much, that she doesn't give a damn about the price. That she wants too much power she can have with "cosher" means - she can be an iron lady of Casterly Rock and even King's reagent sharing power with Tyrels. But she wants to be more - to be the sole winner of Game of Thrones - the only one with power.

Not that she is "a woman" who wants too much power , but that she is "a person", who wants too much power.

We have positive examples of women who doesn't want "classic" women role - Brain, Aria (and may be i am forgetting somebody else). We also have positive (in my view anyway) example of a woman who wants power, but not as obsessively as Cersei - Asha.

I agree. Cersei just hoards power. As much power as possible. It's not even reasonable. And what's worse - she can't use that power well. I mean, not only is she bad for the realm, she is also bad for herself. She's too busy hoarding power, that she'll never be able to hold it, and even if she did, she'll screw it up in a such a manner that will lead to her own demise. She just can't do anything well.

[Alexia]

I agree. Cersei just hoards power. As much power as possible. It's not even reasonable. And what's worse - she can't use that power well. I mean, not only is she bad for the realm, she is also bad for herself. She's too busy hoarding power, that she'll never be able to hold it, and even if she did, she'll screw it up in a such a manner that will lead to her own demise. She just can't do anything well.

Actually, it was a valuable skill that really benefited her family members who knew what to do with what she gained. For example, Tyrek's marriage was Cersei's doing. Holding the Redwyne twins kept a naval fleet out of the war. Holding Sansa gave them Winterfell's heir. She started strengthening the goldcloaks and ordered wildfire production for the war. She also made some very unfortunate mistakes, but she had some fairly good ideas too.

She had no successes that I recall off the top of my head in AFFC due to her unfortunate lobotomy, but her power hoarding greatly benefited her family and put them in a good position for the future and with regard to the war. No one could have predicted Tyrion's murder of Tywin.

[brashcandy]

Reading this, I realized that Cersei is no different from them, despite the apparent difference in age.

In some respects Cersei is actually younger than Dany and Sansa. Dany started developing her independence after the death of her brother Viserys who filled the father-role for her, and the death of her first husband. Sansa started developing hers after her father's death. She was forced into marrying Tyrion, but Cersei's marriage was much worse, and lasted longer. Sansa had no one to defend her against Tywin Lannister... but neither did Cersei. Cersei's father died more recently than Viserys and Lord Eddard, and it seems Cersei only started developing her own independence after he died.

She may be 20 years older than Sansa and Dany, but her reaction to Tywin's plans to find her another suitable husband shows that she had no more independence than those two girls. She was just as (or even more) immature as they were, but held much more power.

This must be the first time that I actually feel sorry for Cersei.

I have sympathy for Cersei too, but I will not indulge in some idea that Cersei is caught in some teenaged cocoon, and that this explains/justifies her actions. She is very much a grown woman who has put away childish things.

Viserys was never a father figure to Dany - he was a brute who threatened her, deserted her to her fate with Khal Drogo, and only wanted to use her to secure his birthright. Dany's maturity and sense of independence was quite evident even before his death and that of her husband.

As for claiming that Cersei was just as vulnerable to Tywin Lannister as Sansa was, don't even go there (no offence, but really). Tywin was not a model father to any of his children, but her situation with Robert is worlds away from what Sansa had to endure as a Lannister pawn and prisoner. (A situation that Cersei helped to create and control). Cersei was mistreated in her marriage to Robert, but we would be doing Cersei a disservice if we don't believe that she had a hand in the failure or collapse of that marriage as well. By all accounts, Tywin was enamoured with his daughter, treated her like a prize jewel, and actively sought to ensure the best possible marriage for her. He may have her neglected her personal wishes to do with taking part in Lannister business, but she was very much daddy's little girl.

Cersei's reaction to Tywin's plans doesn't show that she's immature, it shows that she's smart - she knows, as she so sagely tells Sansa, a woman's life is nine parts mess to one part magic. Marriage has not been kind to Cersei, but she chose to go down a dark path, no one made her do this. And Cersei was doing her own thing long before Tywin died. She got pregnant three times by her brother, and kills her husband. If Cersei realises anything after Tywin's death it's that she no longer has to worry about him curtailing her excesses, so if this is what you mean by becoming independent then fine.

Cersei is not more immature than Sansa and Dany in any form or fashion. These girls may certainly act more mature than her at times, but that just speaks more to Cersei's selfishness and her lack of empathy more than anything else.

Cersei may be a victim of a world where women are restricted as wives and mothers, but we've seen her resist these limitations at every turn, and it's one of the reasons why I grudgingly admire her. But her clear knowledge of right and wrong, and her perpetual habit of making other people victims is why I cannot love or overly pity her, or compare her situation to someone like Sansa Stark. Cersei had a choice to be a better person, but she chooses not to be.

[Melifeather]

I don't think Jaime has redeemed himself at all. He's still a monster for pushing Bran.

I don't like Sansa. She's as devious and snooty as Littlefinger. He sees they are kindred spirits and he's training her on how to play the Game of Thrones.

I hope Brienne kills Jaime, but then who'd strangle Cersai?

[eyeheartsansa]

I don't think Jaime has redeemed himself at all. He's still a monster for pushing Bran.

Agreed. Not the biggest Jaime fan here..

[Hound's She-wolf]

However part of me (and this is an unpopular opinion even with myself), is that they will stay married. Tyrion is GRRM's favourite character and one of the three main characters and Sansa is his reward.

I hate this idea, but I have a terrible suspicion you could be right.

[Shaggydog Stark]

Cersei had a choice to be a better person, but she chooses not to be.

Exactly! The end does not justify the means. Throughout history people like Cersei have been overthrown or murdered. She has so much in common with Aerys its terrifying. Sometimes power corrupts some men and women in exactly the same way.

[Jamie Lannister]

I don't think Jaime has redeemed himself at all. He's still a monster for pushing Bran.

Well, if Bran had mouthed off then Cersei reasonably may have died. Jaime would've died for fucking the queen. They're twins - questions would've be asked about the extent of their relationship. Their (foolishly conceived) bastard children could've been demoted to heads on spikes. It was a brash move and pretty heinous, but in the heat of the moment... it's either that, or lose everything you have.

Here's one: Jaime never had a redemption arc. He's a complex, interesting character, whose role has remained consistent and dynamic from start to finish. He wants redemption, but he's probably never going to get it. He's simply too self-centered; second guessing his immoral choices only when the ramifications of them blow up in his face. Did that really change? Well, give or take. His stated intention to pry Tommen away from Cersei is admirable. His desperate attempts to garner some "honour" by saving Sansa and keeping his word to Cat is a nice change of pace too, though ultimately his personal sense of right and wrong has done the realm, his House and his loved ones more chaos than good. I don't think redemption is the right word to describe Jaime Lannister's tale so far.

I love him though. <3

[Raksha the Demon]

I often find myself comparing Sansa to Daenerys. Sansa started out with everything, two loving and powerful parents, a happy childhood, a betrothal that Sansa herself welcomed to the son of her father's old friend, and a journey to her betrothed's home. Sansa is then stripped of everything, losing her parents to murder (legalized, in her father's case), her family's support, her best friend is taken away, and she is subjected to physical and emotional abuse from her betrothed, who turns out to be monstrous. She manages to maintain her sanity and her life by employing great self-control most of the time, and does not, curiously, lose her compassion, even for an enemy such as Lancel Lannister. Sansa continues to be used ruthlessly as a pawn to the ambitions and schemes of others; and she is currently hidden under the protection of a very dangerous mentor, growing personally more cynical but also more aware of the game into which she has been thrust.

Daenerys, by contrast, grew up with very little; no parents, a loving but increasingly ill foster-father, being kicked out of her childhood home after that foster-father died with only her insecure but personally tyrannical older brother to depend on, wandering from place to place including many that were less than savory or appropriate for a little girl, ending sold into marriage with a man viewed as an uncivilized savage by many, a man whose language and culture Daenerys does not understand, a man and a marriage that Daenerys fears. Her brother, who has always been an authority figure to Dany, someone she had probably expected, per his tales of Targaryen tradition, to marry, threatens Dany with rape and punishment if she does not succeed in pleasing her new and terrifying bridegroom.

Daenerys is married to Khal Drogo with nothing but her own pride in her Targaryen heritage to armor her. Unlike Sansa, she is forced to consummate the marriage; though the first night is not brutal, it is still a matter of coerced sex. The following nights are brutal, rough sex at night on a body already tired by constant riding.

One would expect Dany to either wilt like a hothouse flower in the sun or come up with a plan to poison her unwanted bridegroom and get the heck out of there with the dragon eggs. She does neither. Dany manages to accustom herself to her new life, embraces the Dothraki culture and figures out how to embrace Khal Drogo on her own terms and make him like it. She loses her dependance on her brother and also her fear of him, and sheds no tears at his horrific death. For a time, Dany is happy, and uses her power and growing influence wisely; enjoying the love of her husband and the anticipation of their child's birth. And even when she loses all of that - husband, child, even the power of being Khaleesi to a living Khal, Dany finds an unexpected way to regain power and promptly becomes a major player in the Game of Thrones.

If the dragon eggs had been truly dead, petrified things that could never hatch, or if she had never had the dragon eggs at all, I think that Dany would have found a way to escape the fate of living out her life in Dosh Khaleen, and ended up being able to choose a different destiny, one more to her liking. Dany was always, unlike Sansa, very clear-sighted about the motivations of those who would use her and also clear-sighted about how dangerous the world was. The only time she failed was in assessing Mirri Maz Duur's offer to help Khal Drogo, or what the price would be; and at the time, Dany was desperate with fear for her beloved husband's life...

Dany's plot direction since the end of AGOT has been somewhat frustrating; but she is still mistress of her own destiny, and only growing stronger in terms of experience.

It would be very interesting for Dany and Sansa to meet and compare notes one day; though I doubt they would ever become so chummy, what with Sansa being the daughter of one of the chief rebels who toppled the reign of Dany's father.

[Verboten]

"2. I think the treatment of Shireen Baratheon is rather condescending and pitying, rather than equal/ respectful, as Tyrion is presented."

Yes adult males viewing a deformed eleven year old girl with mildly condescending pity is just so unrealistic. As for the other character, we only see her through Tyrion's eyes and that's why she comes off so one-dimensional. Just like Shae. It's more of a reflection on Tyrion's character than anything else.

[Miryana]

Even in the ADWD forums, a book in which some particularly repulsive deeds were included, I've seen people talk about how GRRM has shown us there is no good and evil; in general, there's the selling point of "the bad guys win" and how edgy ASOIAF is. I disagree with that sentiment in the sense that I don't admire the characters who commit murders, tortures or other abuses because they're somehow more realistic or admirable for letting go of all that "decency" nonsense. All the darkness of the books just makes me care even more about GRRM's good characters, or those trying to do good, because in his writing he makes the consequences of cruel and selfish behaviour so horrifyingly real and consequently those capable of selflessness become, in my eyes, even more admirable because they're being moral in the face of terrible odds. The villains are awful people, and while the series is so very dark that even if the good characters survive I don't actually expect any of them to be happy with their lives, I still want Freys, Boltons, Littlefinger and the like to die even if that makes me old-fashioned and predictable. I think the evil in the books is very real, thanks to GRRM's writing, and it's made me very emotionally invested in the series: I'll keep on reading the books, hoping the characters will pay for their crimes.

I don't think Jaime will be redeemed until he feels remorse for trying to kill a child. Fans make up all sorts of defences for that deed, some of them contradicting Jaime's character in AGOT and even the end of AFFC, but Jaime himself just doesn't care. That's why all his "redemption" reads to me as a hunt for abstract honour, the kind that I've seen his fans say Ned was guilty of when he tried to save Jaime's children and "caused" the war while they praise Jaime for nobly attempting child-murder in order to save more lives than would be lost due to the revelation of Jaime's treason (so, Bran's life versus those of the twins, because pre-end of ASOS Jaime didn't give a damn about his own children or the realm). Again, fans come up with all kinds of excuses about why he didn't have a choice (even though he did, it would just have meant answering for crimes he willingly committed and paying the price for selfishly and arrogantly risking the lives of Cersei and the kids), but to not even feel sorry about what he "had" to do? I just can't get past what his POVs reveal about his total disinterest in the child he crippled, even after he himself experiences what life is like without his hand.

[eyeheartsansa]

Yeah, I don't think it's a matter of 'no good and evil, everyone is grey;' so much as good and evil are often on the same team, or even within the same person. Melisandre, arguably the character the most committed to fighting Others/what she perceives to be 'evil', has this thing for burning innocent people alive. What are we to make of this? I'm not sure, but I enjoy having to guess.

[Nev yn]

I don't think Jaime will be redeemed until he feels remorse for trying to kill a child. Fans make up all sorts of defences for that deed, some of them contradicting Jaime's character in AGOT and even the end of AFFC, but Jaime himself just doesn't care.

The fact that he actually blames Bran in AFFC speaks volumes. So what if the kid heard voices and decided to listen in? He's a kid. They're curious. That doesn't mean they're fair game for murder.

Again, fans come up with all kinds of excuses about why he didn't have a choice (even though he did, it would just have meant answering for crimes he willingly committed and paying the price for selfishly and arrogantly risking the lives of Cersei and the kids)

He had a choice, even without answering for crimes. Although Bran tells Osha he understands the idea of mating, he thought the twins were just wrestling. He doesn't know that it's treason. Even bloodthirsty megalomaniac Cersei didn't see those as the only options. She had intended to intimidate or confuse Bran, not to kill him or to confess to treason. Jamie just didn't care enough to bother. He was throwing a hissy fit because all he wanted to do was nail his twin, and how dare this little snot get in the way and snoop. There's no justification or way of making his character look better. It's laid bare in his POV in AFFC.

[Melifeather]

The reason why I dislike Sansa started right from the beginning when she lied about Arya and Joffrey's sword fight, next she went behind her father's back to tell Cercei he was sending her and Arya home, which ultimately led to her own father's beheading, and lastly, she seems like a willing participant in Littlefingers schemes. I think she likes them very much because she wants to be in a position of power. I think she's a "Cersei" in the development.

[eyeheartsansa]

He had a choice, even without answering for crimes. Although Bran tells Osha he understands the idea of mating, he thought the twins were just wrestling. He doesn't know that it's treason. Even bloodthirsty megalomaniac Cersei didn't see those as the only options. She had intended to intimidate or confuse Bran, not to kill him or to confess to treason. Jamie just didn't care enough to bother. He was throwing a hissy fit because all he wanted to do was nail his twin, and how dare this little snot get in the way and snoop. There's no justification or way of making his character look better. It's laid bare in his POV in AFFC.

Yeah. Hurting a child is one of the worst things anyone can do, no matter what. I don't think anyone could justify anything like this this in today's world, no matter how witty and likeable someone is. The fact that he did this instinctively, as a knee jerk reaction, without even flinching, makes it that much worse! And not so much as an apology to Cat either.

[holding]

Not only do I not think Jaime has been redeemed, I actually find him more unlikeable now than I did at the beginning - I genuinely think that putting that letter in the fire was a worse thing to do than pushing Bran. Maybe not literally so, but definitely done for worse motives. Pushing Bran was reckless, thoughtless and displayed an utter disregard for human life and lack of empathy, but ultimately was done for understandable reasons. Even Ned Stark when he finds out considers briefly whether he wouldn't have done the same thing, were it a choice between his children and a stranger's. Burning Cersei's letter was entirely out of his own wounded pride, self-pity, bitterness and anger, all of which IMO have far more to do with losing his hand and how he feels about that than anything Cersei has actually done. This is how they've always functioned - she is the head, he is the hand - she thinks, he acts - they work as one person. It makes complete sense that her fidelity is emotional/mental while his is physical. Not to mention the fact that she's been married to Robert for fifteen years, and has been sleeping with him for all that time. When Jaime returns to King's Landing he shows no sympathy at all for the fact that Joffrey is dead, and actually feels sorry for himself because he doesn't feel sad about it. He immediately asks Cersei to marry him, and then spends the rest of the book sulking when she points out the fact that they can't get married, because it would, you know, lead to their untimely violent deaths. He refuses to be Hand, again purely out of self-pity, even when Cersei is literally begging for his help. And he spends his spare time walking around the countryside, feeling sorry for himself and threatening to murder children. So how any part of that is Jaime's Redemption Arc I just don't know. It would piss me off, but given all of that and the way it ties in with Cersei's concurrent arc, I'm fairly sure we are supposed to understand he's being ridiculous.

[brashcandy]

I've made my feelings on Jaime Lannister clear from the get go, I don't like the man. Pushing a kid through a window to cover up your sleazy crimes is beyond low and yes, until he comes to terms with it, cries like Sandor did when he confessed to Arya about how he treated Sansa, I won't believe in any kind of redemption for him.

His desertion of Cersei, when it suits him, only adds to my dislike. It's fine to love and protect her when you think she's all yours, but get a whiff that's she been sleeping with someone else and you proceed to lose your mind over it and abandon her to her fate. :stillsick:

I'm actually wondering if GRRM has plans for some kind of encounter between him and Bran in the future...

The reason why I dislike Sansa started right from the beginning when she lied about Arya and Joffrey's sword fight, next she went behind her father's back to tell Cercei he was sending her and Arya home, which ultimately led to her own father's beheading, and lastly, she seems like a willing participant in Littlefingers schemes. I think she likes them very much because she wants to be in a position of power. I think she's a "Cersei" in the development.

Sansa is not a Cersei in development - there are parallels between her and Cersei, but only for contrast. And she isn't a willing participant in LF's schemes - the man basically has her as a prisoner in the Eyrie, after implicating her in a two murders so that he could tighten his perverted hold on her. We cannot expect Sansa to rebel (yet) against the one person who could kill/or hand her back to the Lannisters to be killed. She has to bide her time and find a way to undermine him. I think she will save Sweetrobin, but if she doesn't I'm not going to be too hard on her. LF is an extremely dangerous man and Lysa Tully is the one responsible for what is happening to her child today, not Sansa.

[Alexia]

Jaime also wants to tell Myrcella that she's a bastard borne of incest and her father isn't really her father, because that's just what every child needs to learn about their background! I find that cruel.

I agree that there was nothing admirable in burning Cersei's letter. He sat there thinking that there was nothing he could do without his hand when he was at the head of an army.

Sansa is not a Cersei in development - there are parallels between her and Cersei, but only for contrast. And she isn't a willing participant in LF's schemes - the man basically has her as a prisoner in the Eyrie, after implicating her in a two murders so that he could tighten his perverted hold on her.

When Cersei was Sansa's age, she was murdering Melara and molesting Tyrion. Sansa, OTOH, saved Dontos, helped Lancel, and defended Tommen. As for LF, she specifically thinks that LF is no friend of hers, that she would flee him if she could but she has no place to go, and that she never wanted to play the game and now her head is at risk.

The parallels between her and Cersei are fantastic. Look at how Sansa behaved during her captivity, gaining the respect and admiration of many of her captors and those around her, versus how Cersei behaved during captivity in the sept.