Eddard’s mother, aka ‘Lady Stark’

[Petyr Patter]

I like the theory she is a Skavossi, and considering the island's sinister reputation, no one talks about it and just claim things like "she's a Flint" daughter.

Why? Because why else would Rickon be there if not for family? It's not easy to get to and the natives recently rebelled (100 years ago per wiki) from the Starks. I get that its "the last place anyone would look," but there's a reason for that.

[honeyed chicken]

Next, If Ned's mother was from House Reed, then Howand Reed would have likely been his cousin, not just his friend. And Meera would likely have mentioned their close relation to Bran - and to Ned's grandmother who was this famous daugthter from the Mountain Flints. So I think we can exclude House Reed on that basis.

You are probably right.

But I wish she were from House Reed. that would be cool in a number of ways.

[three-eyed monkey]

I agree with the OP the lady in Bran's vision is Ned's mother.

It is clear the visions are running backward in time. The vision of the pregnant lady emerging from the pool is bracketed by two visions whose timeframe we can roughly establish.

First Lyanna and Benjen playing at swords. Lyanna was born in 267 AL and was gone from Winterfell by the time of the tourney in Harrenhal in 281 AL. If Bran mistakes her for Arya then perhaps Lyanna was around 10 in the vision. So we can say 277 AL +/- 5 years.

Next we have the tall knight, Ser Duncan the Tall imo. Ser Duncan lived between 192 and 259 AL. I'm not sure what age he was when he visited Winterfell, but we know that we're somewhere in the first half of the 3rd century, probably 210-240 AL.

Now, if the pregnant woman is Ned's mother then the son she is praying for must be Brandon. Brandon was born in 260 AL, so as she is heavy with child, then it is more than likely 260 AL, which fits perfectly into the window between the other visions.

Here's my theory on who she is, what vengeance she is praying for, and how the old gods answered her prayer.

Ned's maternal grandmother was a Flint. The Flints are said to be connected to House Hornwood through the female line. This could mean that Ned's mother's mother was a Flint and her father was a Hornwood, hence she was a Hornwood. I think it does, and here's why.

When Lord Halys Hornwood answers Robb's calling of his banners in AGoT, he asks for permission to build a dam on the White Knife, some hunting rights, and curiously a holdfast taken from his grandfather, some unnamed Lord Hornwood. I think this unnamed Lord Hornwood was Ned's mother's father. That would mean her brother was Halys Hornwood's father. But if the Starks took this Hornwood Holdfast then it must have been over some dispute, and I'm speculating that Ned's mother's father, the un-named Lord Horwood, Halys Hornwoods grandfather, was killed in the dispute. Maybe Ned's mother's marriage to Lord Rickard was part of the peace agreement, making her an unwilling Stark, almost a ward if you like.

And how Brandon answered her prayers, pretty much causing the death of Lord Rickard.

So in summary.

Flint woman, Ned's maternal grandmother, marries unnamed Lord Hornwood, Ned's maternal grandfather. They have at least two children, a boy and a girl, before Lord Hornwood is killed in a dispute with the Starks, for which the holdfast is seized. The male child becomes Lord Hornwood, Halys Hornwood's father. The female child is married to Rickard Stark, who was probably not the Lord of Winterfell yet, and becomes Ned's mother. Confused?

I

[honeyed chicken]

Bit of a stretch, but its more than I've got.

[three-eyed monkey]

Yeah, some of it is speculative of course, but not as much of a stretch as some of the Targ theories. It's hard to put the picture together when we only have three of four pieces of the puzzle, so there will be speculation involved.

Firstly, I think the vision timeline fits the fact that the pregnant woman is Lady Stark and the child she is carrying is Brandon. She is praying to the old gods, hence has northern roots, and she wants a son that will avenge her. As Rickard is obviously alive and well at the time of Brandon's birth, then Lady Stark is not praying for vengeance of her husband, nor a child as Brandon was her first, which means it is most likely a parent or a sibling she wants avenged.

We know Lady Stark's mother was a Flint. IMO, Hornwood and Flint is a very plausible marriage, and there is even some suggestion that the Flints were connected to the Hornwoods through the female line. Of course as Jon tells Stannis about the Karstark/ Stark blood connection, the same can be said of most of the noble houses of the north. We also know that the Halys Hornwood's grandfather had a holdfast taken by the Starks, which suggests a Stark/Hornwood dispute in the not too distant past.

[Ludd]

No it is Ricards mother who was a Flint of the mountains.

We know NOTHING of Ned's mother, Eddard's mother which is very odd because we have a complete genealogy of Catelyn Stark/Tully

[honeyed chicken]

Yeah, some of it is speculative of course, but not as much of a stretch as some of the Targ theories. It's hard to put the picture together when we only have three of four pieces of the puzzle, so there will be speculation involved.

Firstly, I think the vision timeline fits the fact that the pregnant woman is Lady Stark and the child she is carrying is Brandon. She is praying to the old gods, hence has northern roots, and she wants a son that will avenge her. As Rickard is obviously alive and well at the time of Brandon's birth, then Lady Stark is not praying for vengeance of her husband, nor a child as Brandon was her first, which means it is most likely a parent or a sibling she wants avenged.

We know Lady Stark's mother was a Flint. IMO, Hornwood and Flint is a very plausible marriage, and there is even some suggestion that the Flints were connected to the Hornwoods through the female line. Of course as Jon tells Stannis about the Karstark/ Stark blood connection, the same can be said of most of the noble houses of the north. We also know that the Halys Hornwood's grandfather had a holdfast taken by the Starks, which suggests a Stark/Hornwood dispute in the not too distant past.

It would be helpful if you would use book/page references for the various statements of fact.

I'm not doubting the Stark/Hornwood holdfast taking you cite. I just don't remember it and a ref would be nice, if you have it - thanks!

Also, there have been several refs to the "pregnant lady" that's not even from ASOIAF, if I remember correctly. It's from a book I don't have. So if somebody would include an extended quote of that, that would be greatly appreciated.

[three-eyed monkey]

No it is Ricards mother who was a Flint of the mountains.

We know NOTHING of Ned's mother, Eddard's mother which is very odd because we have a complete genealogy of Catelyn Stark/Tully

I might be wrong but I believe it was Ned's maternal grandmother who was a Flint, according to Bran's reflection on what Old Nan told him in the chapter where he meets the Liddle in ASoS. Bran II according to the chapter summary on wiki. I don't have the books at hand so sorry I can't quote. Will try and dig it out tonight.

It would be helpful if you would use book/page references for the various statements of fact.

I'm not doubting the Stark/Hornwood holdfast taking you cite. I just don't remember it and a ref would be nice, if you have it - thanks!

Also, there have been several refs to the "pregnant lady" that's not even from ASOIAF, if I remember correctly. It's from a book I don't have. So if somebody would include an extended quote of that, that would be greatly appreciated.

As I said I don't have the books to hand so I can't dig out the quote, sorry, but it comes from Bran VI in AGoT. This is what the wiki says about Halys Hornwood. I know wiki is not canon, but...

Quote:

Lord Halys goes to Winterfell when Robb Stark calls the banners. He gives gifts to Robb in hopes that he will give him leave to dam the White Knife, hunting privileges north of a ridge, and a holdfast taken from his grandfather.[1] He is sent with Lord Roose Bolton when the northern army split. He is killed at the Battle of the Green Fork.[2]

[honeyed chicken]

Thank you!

My question would be how do you know it was the Starks that took the Hornwood holdfast?

[three-eyed monkey]

Thank you!

My question would be how do you know it was the Starks that took the Hornwood holdfast?

Well, I don't know for sure. But as Lord Halys is asking the Starks for it back, then either the Starks are in possession of the holdfast or they are in a position to rule on the possession of the holdfast. So the Starks must have taken the holdfast from the Hornwoods or ruled against Halys' grandfather's procession of the holdfast for whatever reason.

I might add, speculatively of course, that IF the scenario I propose was true, then Halys chose an opportune time to ask for the holdfast back, with Winterfell in the hands of Robb and Ned a prisoner of the crown. Could have been a sore subject with Ned and Halys might better have fancied his chances with Robb.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

I think she's a Hornwood for no reason.

[Mrs_Darcy]

I agree with the OP the lady in Bran's vision is Ned's mother.

It is clear the visions are running backward in time. The vision of the pregnant lady emerging from the pool is bracketed by two visions whose timeframe we can roughly establish.

First Lyanna and Benjen playing at swords. Lyanna was born in 267 AL and was gone from Winterfell by the time of the tourney in Harrenhal in 281 AL. If Bran mistakes her for Arya then perhaps Lyanna was around 10 in the vision. So we can say 277 AL +/- 5 years.

Next we have the tall knight, Ser Duncan the Tall imo. Ser Duncan lived between 192 and 259 AL. I'm not sure what age he was when he visited Winterfell, but we know that we're somewhere in the first half of the 3rd century, probably 210-240 AL.

Now, if the pregnant woman is Ned's mother then the son she is praying for must be Brandon. Brandon was born in 260 AL, so as she is heavy with child, then it is more than likely 260 AL, which fits perfectly into the window between the other visions.

Here's my theory on who she is, what vengeance she is praying for, and how the old gods answered her prayer.

Ned's maternal grandmother was a Flint. The Flints are said to be connected to House Hornwood through the female line. This could mean that Ned's mother's mother was a Flint and her father was a Hornwood, hence she was a Hornwood. I think it does, and here's why.

When Lord Halys Hornwood answers Robb's calling of his banners in AGoT, he asks for permission to build a dam on the White Knife, some hunting rights, and curiously a holdfast taken from his grandfather, some unnamed Lord Hornwood. I think this unnamed Lord Hornwood was Ned's mother's father. That would mean her brother was Halys Hornwood's father. But if the Starks took this Hornwood Holdfast then it must have been over some dispute, and I'm speculating that Ned's mother's father, the un-named Lord Horwood, Halys Hornwoods grandfather, was killed in the dispute. Maybe Ned's mother's marriage to Lord Rickard was part of the peace agreement, making her an unwilling Stark, almost a ward if you like.

And how Brandon answered her prayers, pretty much causing the death of Lord Rickard.

So in summary.

Flint woman, Ned's maternal grandmother, marries unnamed Lord Hornwood, Ned's maternal grandfather. They have at least two children, a boy and a girl, before Lord Hornwood is killed in a dispute with the Starks, for which the holdfast is seized. The male child becomes Lord Hornwood, Halys Hornwood's father. The female child is married to Rickard Stark, who was probably not the Lord of Winterfell yet, and becomes Ned's mother. Confused?

I

I think you are right about the timeframe, but I do not think, she was a Hornwood. I just think, that the fact, that no Northern (and no Southron house either) ever mentions the relatively close family ties with the Starks means, that we still have to meet members of her House.

Remember, when Halys Hornwood asked about the privileges he wanted from Robb (holdfast, hunting rights etc. ) he never mentions, that the Hornwoods are the closest Northern relatives to the Starks, a fact, that most lords would exploit to their advantage.

Additionally, when the Hornwood inheritance case is discussed, it is never mentioned, that the Starks have a claim, too. If they were related to house Hornwood though the female line, it would have been discussed.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

What about a Flint of Widow's Watch or a Locke ?

[three-eyed monkey]

I think you are right about the timeframe, but I do not think, she was a Hornwood. I just think, that the fact, that no Northern (and no Southron house either) ever mentions the relatively close family ties with the Starks means, that we still have to meet members of her House.

Remember, when Halys Hornwood asked about the privileges he wanted from Robb (holdfast, hunting rights etc. ) he never mentions, that the Hornwoods are the closest Northern relatives to the Starks, a fact, that most lords would exploit to their advantage.

Additionally, when the Hornwood inheritance case is discussed, it is never mentioned, that the Starks have a claim, too. If they were related to house Hornwood though the female line, it would have been discussed.

While it's possible that Ned's mother comes from a house we have not heard of, I don't think that has to be the case. We don't know what house Lord Rickard's mother comes from and no house ever mentions that relatively close relationship to the Starks either. So would that make two houses we haven't met yet or is it the case that, like Ned's mother's house, we have met them but the connection has never being mentioned?

Halys may not have mentioned the Hornwood/Stark relationship while presenting to Robb for a number of reasons, such as, it may have been so obvious as not to merit mention. Or perhaps if the circumstances of Lord Rickard and Ned's mother's union were unhappy, then he might have felt it better not to pick at an old scab. If that is the case then it would have been easier to avoid with Robb than it would have been with Ned.

IIRC the Hornwood inheritance case being between Halys' bastard Larence Snow and Halys' sister Berena's second son, Beren. I don't see why there would be need to go back to Halys' aunt so the Starks wouldn't come into it. A sister comes before an aunt, but the question in this case is should a bastard inherit first? But I need to read that part again.

[three-eyed monkey]

What about a Flint of Widow's Watch or a Locke ?

IIRC, Old Nan attributed Bran's love of climbing to his Flint blood, which might suggest, though not confirm admittedly, that she was talking about the Flint's of the mountains.

[three-eyed monkey]

No it is Ricards mother who was a Flint of the mountains.

We know NOTHING of Ned's mother, Eddard's mother which is very odd because we have a complete genealogy of Catelyn Stark/Tully

What about a Flint of Widow's Watch or a Locke ?

Here's the relevant quote from Bran II in ASoS.

Quote:

"There's people," Bran told her. "The Umbers are mostly east of the kingsroad, but they graze their sheep in the high meadows in summer. There are Wulls west of mountains along the Bay of Ice, Harclays back behind us in the hills, and Knotts and Liddles and Norreys and even some Flints up here in the high places." His father's mother's mother had been a Flint of the mountains. Old Nan once said that it was her blood in him that made Bran such a fool for climbing before his fall. ...

[tormund's beard]

ned's grandmom a.k.a rickards mother-in-law was a flint ?

[three-eyed monkey]

It would be helpful if you would use book/page references for the various statements of fact.

I'm not doubting the Stark/Hornwood holdfast taking you cite. I just don't remember it and a ref would be nice, if you have it - thanks!

The relevant quote from Bran VI in AGoT.

Quote:

Jovial Lord Hornwood had no daughters, but he did bring gifts, a horse one day, a haunch of venison the next, a silver-chased hunting horn the day after, and he asked nothing in return... nothing but a certain holdfast taken from his grandfather, and hunting rights north of a certain ridge, and leave to dam the White Knife, if it please the lord.

[Rooghar Targaryen]

First Vision: Young Ned wishing Jon and Robb can be as brothers. After Robert's Rebellion, best guess date, Late 283 AL or 284 AL.

Second Vision: Child Lyanna playing swords with child Benjen. Lyanna was born 267 AL so best guess date, 274 AL - 279 AL.

Third Vision: Naked chick emerging from pool. Must be "Lady Stark," pregnant with Brandon. Has to be Eddard/Brandon's mother because it fits in the time being chronological. She wants a son to avenge her so she doesn't already have a son, must be Brandon. Brandon was born in 260 AL or 261 AL so best guess date is 259 AL or 260 AL.

Fourth Vision: Really tall, young knight kisses a slender girl. Most likely Dunk is the really tall knight and "Old" Nan is the girl. The Tourney at Ashford (The Hedge Knight) was in 209 AL. The Sworn Sword took place around 210 AL or 211 AL. The Whitewalls Tourney (The Mystery Knight) was in 212 AL and GRRM said the fourth D&E adventure would be the She Wolves of Winterfell. Dunk and Egg were already on there way to Winterfell to answer a call for arms by Lord Beron Stark when they decided to stop by the Whitewalls Tourney. So it would seem that they would arrive in Winterfell fairly soon to start their next adventure. So best guess date is 213 AL - 215 AL.

Early Fifth Vision: “A dark-eyed youth, pale and fierce, sliced three branches off the weirwood and shaped them into arrows." If weirwood arrows help kill dragons, this would be around the time of King Torrhen Stark. Brandon Snow was Torrhen's bastard half-brother, that thought they could assassinate dragons with stealth (Weirwood Arrows?). The dark-eyed youth, pale and fierce could be Brandon Snow making weirwood arrows to kill Aegon the Conqueror's dragons. So best guess date is 0 AL - 2 AL.

Middle Part of Fifth Vision: "And now the lords Bran glimpsed were tall and hard, stern men in fur and chain mail. Some wore faces he remembered from the statues in the crypts, but they were gone before he could put a name to them." This signifies lots and lots of time is passing. Bran basically recognizes a bunch of old Stark kings, bunch of kings equals a bunch of time passing.

Last Part of Fifth Vision: "Then, as he watched, a bearded man forced a captive down onto his knees before the heart tree. A white-haired woman stepped toward them through a drift of dark red leaves, a bronze sickle in her hand. The woman grabbed the captive by the hair, hooked the sickle round his throat, and slashed. " So now we are back a really, really long time ago. Around 12,000 years before Aegon Landed the First Men came to Westeros. They had bronze weapons so that is interesting. They fought with the Children of the Forest for awhile and then they made a pact and lived for 4,000 years in peace. Around 8,000 years before Aegon's Landing the Long Winter happened and the First Men and Children of the Forest defeated the Others. The Wall was built after the victory so they could never be caught unaware again. Around 6,000 years before Aegon's Landing the Andals came to Westeros and conquered all the kingdoms but the North. The Andals brought iron weapons with them and killed the remaining Children of the Forest South of Moat Cailin.

Soooo if we want to make a guess we could say that due to the Bronze weapon this event happened in 10,000 BAL - 5,000 BAL, also known as the Age of Heroes + 1000 years as a buffer zone lol. The only characters we know that are from the North and were around during that time period are Bran the Builder and the Night's King. Now we don't know much of anything about Bran the Builder, except he was perhaps the founder of House Stark and the builder of the Wall and Winterfall and maybe Storm's End. We know that the Night's King was the 13th Lord Commander of the Nights Watch and that he was a brother of the King in the North. He might have married a White Walker and then announced he was King and took over the Nightfort for 13 years. Legend says he committed lots of atrocities and was also doing sacrifices to the White Walkers. Now if the Knight's King was captured he might have been brought to Winterfell to be executed. He could be the significant guy getting killed.

[Lady Flandrensis]

Ned's mother must have CotF in her. Where else would all the abilities come from?