Eddard’s mother, aka ‘Lady Stark’

[Masha]

If Eddards mother hated his father and wanted revenge on him using her children, its kind of strange that neither one of their children ended up hating their father.

Brendon loved his father enough to die for him - in Kings Landing. Mad King didn't murder Brendon outright - he tied a loose noose over Brendan neck that tightened as he struggled to help his father being broiled alive in his armor. If Brendon wanted to somehow hurt or punish his father - would he struggle to die for him? I don't think so. He would struggle a bit, get hurt a bit but not strangled himself.

Otherwise - she died before she could instill her desire for revenge on Brandon (her eldest) - unlikely - as she lived long enough to have 3 more children. Or her revenge consisted in getting her children be wild, unruly and getting themselves into trouble (Lyanna running away with Rhaegar and Brendon rushing in screaming revenge in KL).

Therefore - I don't think if its Eddards mother wanted revenge on her husband. And if it was her, in the vision, she probably wanted revenge on someone else - perhaps her own father, brother or someone else entirely. And it also quite likely that it was Eddards grandmother who wanted revenge on her husband - and she was pregnant with Rickard.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I thought the pregnant woman was Mellantha Blackwood and had what was in my own humble opinion a really fantastic theory. Only to have it blown out of the water by the birth order of Mellantha's children.

Damn it!

[Bael's Bastard]

The vision of Ned seems to be about 283-284. If the young girl and boy are Lyanna and Benjen, and they are as old as Bran thinks they look, that would put that vision around 275-277. If the pregnant woman was Brandon's mother, and she was pregnant with him, that would put that vision around 261-262.

It lines up relatively well in the sense that the second vision takes place in the decade prior to the first, and the third would take place in the decade prior to the second. But the one that is likely Dunk would seem likely to be prior to Egg becoming king in 233 (if it is from the story we were supposed to get about the She Wolves), and the one that seems to be Brandon Snow is nearly two centuries before Dunk.

[pettes]

According to TWoIaF Rickard Stark married his cousin Lyarra Stark daughter of Rodrik (the wandering wolf) Stark and Arya Flint

[Connartist92]

If Eddards mother hated his father and wanted revenge on him using her children, its kind of strange that neither one of their children ended up hating their father.

Brendon loved his father enough to die for him - in Kings Landing. Mad King didn't murder Brendon outright - he tied a loose noose over Brendan neck that tightened as he struggled to help his father being broiled alive in his armor. If Brendon wanted to somehow hurt or punish his father - would he struggle to die for him? I don't think so. He would struggle a bit, get hurt a bit but not strangled himself.

Otherwise - she died before she could instill her desire for revenge on Brandon (her eldest) - unlikely - as she lived long enough to have 3 more children. Or her revenge consisted in getting her children be wild, unruly and getting themselves into trouble (Lyanna running away with Rhaegar and Brendon rushing in screaming revenge in KL).

Therefore - I don't think if its Eddards mother wanted revenge on her husband. And if it was her, in the vision, she probably wanted revenge on someone else - perhaps her own father, brother or someone else entirely. And it also quite likely that it was Eddards grandmother who wanted revenge on her husband - and she was pregnant with Rickard.

This I do see as the biggest flaw the theory that the pregnant woman was her. As you said, her dying fairly young could be the reason why. Do we know how much older Brandon was than Benjen? We do, roughly. Brandon was born in 262, and Benjen in "267 or later," according to their wiki pages.

So Brandon is at least 5 years older, and was at least 5 when his mother died. I think it's safe to assume she was dead before Robert's Rebellion, and that started in 282. IF (big if) she died not long after having Benjen, it would make sense that the children didn't know about her desire for revenge, because they were still very young and not likely to understand or keep it a secret.

I do find it a bit odd that GRRM is so vague about her death. Why did she die? How did she die? WHEN did she die? No one ever talks about her! >.< If I am right that is was her in the vision, could someone have found out about her planning and somehow had her killed? Once again I'm reaching...

I need more information! I know this whole theory balances delicately on a bunch of what-ifs and maybes, but it seems to be one of many possibilities, at the very least.

[Bael's Bastard]

I think when he was writing the first books GRRM probably didn't know so many people would be as interested in the identities and fates of some of the ancestors of the current characters as some of us are. I don't think the lack of information about her in the books is all that unusual. We are only just now learning the identities of Tywin's mother, Joanna's parents, Aerys II and Rhaella's mother, Robert's grandfather, and we are still in the dark about Doran's parents, Edric Dayne's father, and so on. Maybe there is some interesting story behind Lady Stark's exclusion up to now, but I tend to think not. Not to say I am not interesting in knowing when she died, and whatever there is to know about her relationships with Rickard and her children. I just don't think there is some major secret being held back.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

I think the "honor of the Starks" is a construct of getting the vast majority of our information about the House through Ned, his wife, and his children.

It was Eddard Stark, the Quiet Wolf, who was known far and wide as a man of honor. This was the influence of Jon Arryn, whose House words are "As High As Honor." The implicit message is that while Robert ingested part of Jon A's example, as the Baratheon heir, he was very much an "ours is the fury" type. But Ned was the second son, the one who was reared knowing his brother would inherit, who was quiet and thoughtful and had a personal code of honor that appealed to Cat (house words: "Family, Duty, Honor") and that they passed to their children. The Stark kids (and yes, I include Jon Snow in that number, since he was raised in Winterfell) all take the fact that honor is virtuous at face value because of Ned and Cat's influence.

And, there may be a case to be made after we learn more about the backstory that neither Brandon, nor Lyanna, nor Benjen were just these poor dead honorable heroic figures, but like everyone else in ASOIAF, grey. I like meta posts that explore if Brandon may not have been so gentlemanly with Ashara, or if Lyanna may have not been a hapless victim (although, in the end, she was), or if little Benjen was complicit in creating the KOLT. I love the idea that HR may have "cheated" at the ToJ battle by using magic or ambush, which would plague Ned. Because what's honorable and what's not isn't just about an arbitrary code or set of rules. It really depends on the context of any specific action.

House Stark didn't survive 8000 years as the grim Kings of Winter solely through honor. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a darker backstory just one generation back.

[three-eyed monkey]

If Eddards mother hated his father and wanted revenge on him using her children, its kind of strange that neither one of their children ended up hating their father.

Brendon loved his father enough to die for him - in Kings Landing. Mad King didn't murder Brendon outright - he tied a loose noose over Brendan neck that tightened as he struggled to help his father being broiled alive in his armor. If Brendon wanted to somehow hurt or punish his father - would he struggle to die for him? I don't think so. He would struggle a bit, get hurt a bit but not strangled himself.

Otherwise - she died before she could instill her desire for revenge on Brandon (her eldest) - unlikely - as she lived long enough to have 3 more children. Or her revenge consisted in getting her children be wild, unruly and getting themselves into trouble (Lyanna running away with Rhaegar and Brendon rushing in screaming revenge in KL).

Therefore - I don't think if its Eddards mother wanted revenge on her husband. And if it was her, in the vision, she probably wanted revenge on someone else - perhaps her own father, brother or someone else entirely. And it also quite likely that it was Eddards grandmother who wanted revenge on her husband - and she was pregnant with Rickard.

I don't doubt that Brandon loved his father. But as Connartist92 suggests, Lyarra could have died giving birth to Benjen, so her children would have been very young, under the age of seven, when she was taken from them. Alternatively, she may have grown to love Rickard, but the Old Gods answered her prayer anyway in a "careful what you wish for" twist.

Of course, Marna Locke pregnant with Rickard would work too. But of the two I feel Lyarra would be that bit more interesting and perhaps more revealing of a dark side to the Starks.

On a related subject, I don't think the girl kissing Dunk is Old Nan. I suspect that Dunk and Old Nan missed each other at Winterfell by three or four years, depending on how long Dunk stayed. I think the girl is more likely to be a Stark, in line with the rest of the visions, so maybe she's a she-wolf. I imagine that we'll get the answer to that question in the next D&E story. The pregnant woman, would be sometime between the mid 230's and 262, depending on whether it is Ned's mother or grandmother.

[Connartist92]

On a related subject, I don't think the girl kissing Dunk is Old Nan. I suspect that Dunk and Old Nan missed each other at Winterfell by three or four years, depending on how long Dunk stayed. I think the girl is more likely to be a Stark, in line with the rest of the visions, so maybe she's a she-wolf. I imagine that we'll get the answer to that question in the next D&E story. The pregnant woman, would be sometime between the mid 230's and 262, depending on whether it is Ned's mother or grandmother.

I agree! However, I still think Hodor is Dunk's descendent. There were two generations between Old Nan and Hodor. It's possible that her kids or grandkids had a child with Dunk's kids or grandkids, and thus Hodor.

[Connartist92]

I think the "honor of the Starks" is a construct of getting the vast majority of our information about the House through Ned, his wife, and his children.

It was Eddard Stark, the Quiet Wolf, who was known far and wide as a man of honor. This was the influence of Jon Arryn, whose House words are "As High As Honor." The implicit message is that while Robert ingested part of Jon A's example, as the Baratheon heir, he was very much an "ours is the fury" type. But Ned was the second son, the one who was reared knowing his brother would inherit, who was quiet and thoughtful and had a personal code of honor that appealed to Cat (house words: "Family, Duty, Honor") and that they passed to their children. The Stark kids (and yes, I include Jon Snow in that number, since he was raised in Winterfell) all take the fact that honor is virtuous at face value because of Ned and Cat's influence.

And, there may be a case to be made after we learn more about the backstory that neither Brandon, nor Lyanna, nor Benjen were just these poor dead honorable heroic figures, but like everyone else in ASOIAF, grey. I like meta posts that explore if Brandon may not have been so gentlemanly with Ashara, or if Lyanna may have not been a hapless victim (although, in the end, she was), or if little Benjen was complicit in creating the KOLT. I love the idea that HR may have "cheated" at the ToJ battle by using magic or ambush, which would plague Ned. Because what's honorable and what's not isn't just about an arbitrary code or set of rules. It really depends on the context of any specific action.

House Stark didn't survive 8000 years as the grim Kings of Winter solely through honor. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a darker backstory just one generation back.

You're right, I definitely over-thought the Starks' honor as a whole family lol.

I think Lyanna was the KotLT, and Benjen helped her acquire the armor and suit up. The vision Bran has of them training together in the godswood as children would hint that Benjen knew that his sister wasn't one to shy away from arms like most ladies.

I would be very interested to learn more about the dynamics between Brandon and Ashara. Sadly, I'm not sure if it's important enough to make the cut in the next two novels... Unless Ashara is still alive (coughcoughseptalemore)

[Bendon stark]

Ned's mother was Lyarra Stark according to TWOIAF. She was Rickard's cousin, daughter of Rodrik Stark and Arya Flint  :cool4:

[The Jon]

The hint there is a bronze sickle. The First Men used bronze weapons, I'm guessing iron didn't end up in circulation until the Andals turned up. The (sacrifice? Execution?) may have taken place in the earliest days of Winterfell.

It's interesting when Val comes back to the wall after meeting Tormund, she's also described as having a similar bronze weapon. Perhaps this shows her (and maybe Dalla's) connection to the First Men

[lordstewie]

what is most interesting is that the character does not know anything, not even the name.

most likely it will be revealed when we will have a big surprise

[Lady Blizzardborn]

 

what is most interesting is that the character does not know anything, not even the name.

most likely it will be revealed when we will have a big surprise

 

I vote for it being one of the She-Wolves.

[spoon89]

It's interesting when Val comes back to the wall after meeting Tormund, she's also described as having a similar bronze weapon. Perhaps this shows her (and maybe Dalla's) connection to the First Men

 

She has a bone knife not a bronze sickle.

Val patted the long bone knife on her hip. "Lord Crow is welcome to steal into my bed any night he dares. Once he's been gelded, keeping those vows will come much easier for him."

 

What is interesting is her cloak brooch.

Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings.

[Taenqyrhae]

I have a theory that the Pact of Ice and Fire that was supposed to include intermarriage between the Starks and the Targaryans, that they supposedly planned but never enacted, was actually signed in secret because the agreement would be seen as dishonorable by many Targaryans and Starks.  Part of this agreement was that the Targaryans would produce children with Starks once per generation.

This would be foreshadowed by the talk of how the Starks once took all the daughters of a defeated family of powerful skinchangers and raped them to produce half-Stark children who had skinchanging powers.  I think they did the same thing with the Targaryans - they saw another powerful hereditary trait that they lacked (dragonriding) and made a deal - they would bend the knee without fighting, and in exchange the Targaryans would allow them to keep their old laws, promise that the Starks would always have Winterfell, and provide dragonseed babies once a generation to Stark women.  The Targaryans were willing to deal because they knew the Starks had a secret weapon that could destroy them.

 

This is why Lyarra left - she was a strong willed woman who probably did not know about this secret pact when she married Ned's father.  She either grudgingly agreed or was forced to have a Targaryan impregnate her and she couldn't bear to live with Rickard after knowing he would allow it.  Her daughter Lyanna also had problems with keeping up her end of the Pact, so Rhaegar kidnapped her - and because both the Targs and the Starks are keeping the pact secret, several of the strange details of the events leading to Robert's rebellion make more sense.  We know why Rhaegar did such a risky thing.  We know why so much care was given to keeping Lyanna away from the fighting and why nobody can explain why it happened and had to make up stories about Rhaegar being madly in love with this young girl.  It's why Rickard felt like he could go to the mad King and ask for his son to be released (not his daughter!) with the expectation that the Targaryan king would agree.  It's why Brandon felt safe threatening the Crown Prince at the gates of the Red Keep - the Starks are in a position of power over the Targaryans and he didn't realize that Aerys was crazy enough to risk the destruction of his empire by going up against the Starks.  And it explains why Rickard was intent on forming alliances with the southern Houses - he was upset over losing his wife over the Pact and was looking for a way out for future generations of Stark women.

 

If you look further into the Stark/Targaryan history, you see other clues.  For instance, look at the many wives and children of Cregan Stark, the Stark in Winterfell when Jacaerys came to visit on the back of a dragon and stayed a while.  There are rumors that the dragon laid eggs at Winterfell, but that may be a poetic description of what actually happened _ Jacaerys came to fulfill the pact and knock up one of Cregan's wives.  I wasn't able to find out the order of his wives so I don't know which one was his wife when Jacaerys came, but they are all interesting - his first wife, Arra Norrey, is from the northernmost of the old mountain clans, the one closest to the Wall.  His second wife was a Blackwood, enough said.  His third is a mysterious woman named Lynara that we don't know much about.  Interestingly, his first wife only had one child, Rickon, who is recorded in "Conquest of Dorn" as being fiercely loyal to the Targaryans and who died outside the Sunspear in battle.  He had two daughters - one married an Umber but had no children, and ended up marrying her uncle, and produced two sons and twin daughters who were married off to important old Northern houses (Cerwyn and Umber).  His second wife, the Blackwood, gave him 4 daughters, none of which appear to have had any children of their own.  His final wife gave him his second, third, and fourth sons, who attempted intermarry with descendents of Cregan's first wife - if you look at the family tree, you see a pattern where the progeny of one of the daughters is married back into the dame family tree, and their children are married off to all the great Northern houses.  It looks like a very thorough breeding program to spread Targaryan DNA throughout the North and keep it isolated from the rest of Westeros - which would be why the Starks always marry their vassals even though that's normally not something you want to do very often.

So, who are these Targaryan/Stark children?  Not sure…but we might be able to figure it out from the clues.  It seems likely to me that the pact specifies clearly who has to bear the Targaryan children so that jealous husbands don't try to maneuver their way out of keeping up their end - maybe it's the first child of the first wife, in a kind of First Night scenario.  In that case, the most recent one we know of would have been Ned's brother Brandon Stark, who seems like a likely candidate for a bit of Targaryan hot-headedness and it could explain why Aerys was so cruel to him if he knew his origin…he might have seen Brandon as a bastard half-brother and a threat to his reign.  It could explain why he put Brandon in a situation where he had to kill himself to save Rickard, who was not actually his father, from fire…a bit of irony there.  It could explain why Cregan's later progeny tried to marry into the line of his first son, Rickon.

Of course, the Starks may have not wanted the Targaryans to have the first child, so they could keep their succession relatively clear, and the Targaryans may have wanted to make sure that the woman was fertile first.  Maybe it was second son, or first daughter.  That also works well with the ancestral Starks, and if Lyarra left after having the Targ baby, it could be Benjen.  We may know now why Benjen went to the Wall, and why Benjen and Jon have so much in common.

I think there will be a big twist related to R+L=J if it's true, and this would definitely provide that.  Jon may not have been the product of passion or prophecy, but the result of a very old deliberate breeding program.  Lyanna may have begged Ned to not let the child of rape be treated as a Stark.  Maybe he made him promise to not let it happen to his daughters, which is why he was eager to marry Sansa off to a powerful Southron.

This would also tie in to another big mystery of the series.  I mentioned that the Targaryans were afraid of the Starks secret weapon, what is it?  Only the powerful ancient spirits of the Stark ancestors, who had a magical connection to the very essence of Winter, which is why the Stark words are so different from the houses.  The Targaryans were told that if the Starks were given what they wanted and kept their ancestral seat, they would never have to deal with the Others invading their empire.  This is why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell, the Pact is enforced by magic.  The Others woke up (and magic started returning to the world) when a Targaryan broke the pact and killed the lord of Winterfell and his heir.  When the Starks were driven out of Winterfell as a result of Targaryan actions, they came to punish them for breaking the pact.

[The Jon]

 
She has a bone knife not a bronze sickle.
Val patted the long bone knife on her hip. "Lord Crow is welcome to steal into my bed any night he dares. Once he's been gelded, keeping those vows will come much easier for him."
 
What is interesting is her cloak brooch.
Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings.

Ahh thanks for that correction.. I've been reading through so many of these threads must've gotten it confused, but her striking presence upon return is definitely a sign of some type of change while she was gone