Descriptions of Male vs. Female Characters: Another Sexism Thread

[Verboten]

I think that's very interesting, and definitely fits with the way the text has set them up the inverse relationship between them - Brienne's femininity is internal, while Cersei's is external. I don't necessarily think GRRM intends us to view Cersei as transgendered - it's more that she is a product of a society that deems women as inferior. There are these two discourses going on, where she's at once female and therefore inferior, weak, powerless chattel, and also a Lannister queen and everything that goes along with that. And so I think more than anything there's a real disconnect from her own body (in the same way that Elizabeth I famously said "I may have the body of a weak and feeble woman, but I have the heart and stomach of a king"

Queen Elizabeth is way too awesome and terrifying to be compared to Cersei. Also Cersei is not transgendered, she just wants to be Jaime. Her bitterness over her gender is from the way she used to dress up as Jaime as a child and therefore had firsthand experience with how people treated her differently.

[Sevumar]

Nobody gets admitted to anything without the power of a patron to back them up. That's a constant of life. Tywin himself get appointed hand, by his patron, aerys, while Ned get appointed by his patron Robert. Thats the nature of a feudel society (and to some degree a capitalist one as well). Now is Tyrion actually treated as an outcast by most people he encounters because of his apperance?

You're right in that feudal society depends on the agreement of someone else higher in the social chain to secure your position, but I still think Tyrion's case is somewhat different. Tywin and Ned are powerful men in their own right and that's a good part of the reason why they're sought out as Hands. They have long records of success and have proven themselves capable (if radically different kinds of) rulers. Tyrion's authority derives entirely from his father's say-so and reputation, and no one takes him seriously until the weight of Tywin is behind him.

With a few exceptions (LC Mormont, Maester Aemon, and a few others), the reaction of the men of the Night's Watch is a pretty good illustration of how he's treated. If he is treated with respect and deference, it's because of his family name. When he's not present, people mock him quite openly. In ASoS, when he imposes the tax on prostitutes, it's called the "dwarf's penny" not the Hand's penny.

Tyrion's problem is that he believes people hate him and shun him for his looks and height, so therefor he might as well "play the monster". So he does play the monster, and then is hated for it, which he blames on his height and looks. One of the most instructive parts of this is when he asks Bywater whether he is unpopular.

We've seen that the commoners react differently to people who have "freakish" looks. Bloodraven is a very useful parallel here, in fact. Both of these characters are considered ugly by most people, both hold the position of Hand of the King, and both are objects of fear, derision, and gossip. Compare that with Tywin's time as Hand. What do we hear about him? Well, he shits gold, pays his debts, and isn't afraid to make examples of those who cross him. There's quite a difference here, even though all these people have done harsh things.

[Shaggydog Stark]

@ Woman of War

I was about to sign off and then I read your post. Well said and out of all the Lannisters, I sympathize with him the most though I do not excuse him for the crimes he has committed or Tysha etc. But as you have pointed out they are inexcusable and not to be glossed over.

However, it is important to point out that with that family it is a wonder he turned out this way and not worse. A bit screwed up but still trying. And yes, I too find his many layers fascinating.

With that, I am off to bed!

[Sevumar]

Sevumar, I just wanted to respond to this bit directly. Does she really function as a woman in most of her sexual encounters? It's interesting to think about actually :)

With Robert she eats his sperm

With Taena she attempts to perform as the male

With Lancel and the Kettleback(s) she is involved in performing a role

Perhaps Jaime is the only one with whom she behaves as a "woman" in the sense of being a genuine partner to him.

I still think that she does see herself as a woman in all of those situations, except her encounter with Taena Merryweather. Performing oral sex on Robert is not out of the range of feminine sexuality for Westeros, nor is the act of swallowing. She undoubtedly puts her own spin on what the act means, but it's an expression of her personal disgust for Robert, not her status as woman.

I think she sees herself as a woman shrewdly using her wiles to manipulate Lancel and the Kettleblacks. She'd rather exercise power openly, but I think she sees herself here as a woman cunningly making use of her assets to make her move behind the scenes.

Sadly, I think her relationship with Jaime is the most "conventional" of them all. They seem to have pretty normal sexual roles for their society, if you take away the incestuous aspect of their relationship.

[holding]

Queen Elizabeth is way too awesome and terrifying to be compared to Cersei.

I wasn't exactly comparing them, so much as pointing out that there is a historical precedent of powerful women using the rhetoric of masculinity in the way they think about themselves. Although actually, isn't that exactly the sort of character that GRRM is evoking with Cersei? I see her very much as a Shakespearean/Senecan character - like Lady Macbeth invoking nature to "unsex me now" so that she can murder Duncan, or York's description of Queen Margaret as a "tiger's heart wrapt in a woman's hide [...] Women are soft, mild, pitiful and flexible/Thou stern, obdurate, flinty, rough, remorseless". Or maybe I'm giving GRRM too much credit.

[brashcandy]

I think that's very interesting, and definitely fits with the way the text has set them up the inverse relationship between them - Brienne's femininity is internal, while Cersei's is external. I don't necessarily think GRRM intends us to view Cersei as transgendered - it's more that she is a product of a society that deems women as inferior. There are these two discourses going on, where she's at once female and therefore inferior, weak, powerless chattel, and also a Lannister queen and everything that goes along with that. And so I think more than anything there's a real disconnect from her own body (in the same way that Elizabeth I famously said "I may have the body of a weak and feeble woman, but I have the heart and stomach of a king, and a king of England too"). Which also relates to her sexuality, and inability to actually get any pleasure from sex, and the way she uses her own body like currency. Ironically, you can also relate it to Tyrion's view of himself which is somewhat similar - they both are concurrently incredibly privileged and incredibly disadvantaged.

Indeed, I don't believe GRRM wants us to think of her as transgendered anymore than we should consider Brienne to be. But there is an underlying identity crisis that doesn't receive as much critical attention as it should.

I agree that Cersei experiences a disconnect from her own body - she has played the role of the glamorous Queen for so long - whilst aspiring to be have more access to power like a man - that she doesn't even seem to realise that her body is not what it used to be. This was one of the more heartbreaking aspects of her walk for me.

[Sevumar]

Indeed, I don't believe GRRM wants us to think of her as transgendered anymore than we should consider Brienne to be. But there is an underlying identity crisis that doesn't receive as much critical attention as it should.

I agree with you here. There's no room or vocabulary in Westerosi experience for what we call transgendered today. I was raising it as a frame for discussing whether Cersei's feelings about her womanhood are a response to a deeply misogynistic society or indicative of an identity conflict within herself. If she suddenly had the recognition and the power to rule in her own right, how would she respond psychologically?

I agree that Cersei experiences a disconnect from her own body - she has played the role of the glamorous Queen for so long - whilst aspiring to be have more access to power like a man - that she doesn't even seem to realise that her body is not what it used to be. This was one of the more heartbreaking aspects of her walk for me.

Some of those changes are pretty recent in the story and in her experience. It takes time for anyone to update their own conception of their body to something that's happened that recently. With some work (and access to makeup and a seamstress), she probably could pull off the appearance of a glamorous queen again.

She's not just disconnected from her own body, she's disconnected from sex as anything other than a tool. There's some evidence that at the beginning of the story, she genuinely enjoys sex with Jaime, but by AFFC, she's reduced to using it to try to manipulate him.

[holding]

This was one of the more heartbreaking aspects of her walk for me.

I think that the reason her walk was so heartbreaking was because it forced her to really inhabit her own body - it was such a gender specific punishment, and her loss of pride is so directly related to that. I actually think that the issue of mind vs. body is key to Cersei's character and also a really neat way of thinking about the Jaime/Cersei relationship, because he is the exact opposite - he is entirely body - she thinks and he acts. She describes him as her "strong right hand" and that's exactly how he functions - there are so many scenes, both flashbacks and in the present, where she threatens her enemies by telling them 'my brother will kill you' as though she were going to do it herself. And their relationship falls apart when they can no longer function that way (because he literally loses his hand), and they both fall apart individually when their relationship does.

I do wish that some of the other female characters engaged more directly with ideas of gender, because it would be interesting to see the comparisons. Obviously there's a lot to be said about Brienne, Arya, Cat, Sansa, etc, but they don't tend to think much of it themselves. I do love how much mirroring goes on with all the female characters and I think a lot can be made of that - Cersei/Brienne, Cersei/Sansa, Sansa/Arya, Cat/Cersei, Brienne/Sansa. And those are just the ones I find most interesting - there's loads that can be said about the other women too, especially Daenerys, who is really explicitly mirrored with Cersei in their final chapters of ADWD, although I'm not entirely sure why.

[Alexia]

Cersei is a fairly feminine character. She wishes she were a man because she perceives power and strength as being linked to men. But she's not transexual or uncomfortable with her feminine body. That charge would be better lobbed at Brienne.

[brashcandy]

Cersei is a fairly feminine character. She wishes she were a man because she perceives power and strength as being linked to men. But she's not transexual or uncomfortable with her feminine body. That charge would be better lobbed at Brienne.

I would argue that whilst she's not uncomfortable with her feminine body, she may be uncomfortable with what that feminine body represents. Sure she is able to exploit it, and use it to manipulate others, but IMO there is a disconnect not just in what that body now looks like, but in terms of how she identifies with it as a sexual being, and obviously with how much it limits her access to power and authority.

[lady crackhead]

I can think of a couple of boarders who will find something sexist in anything.

I think a lot of the perception that GRRM writes unpleasant women as ugly comes from the reader's perspective and/or reaction to the characters in question. writes the characters.

There are about two boarders right now making that argument very consistently in different threads (some having nothing to do with the subject)

Happy Birthday to you all.

What do you have against anyone finding sexism in the writing of these books? You may not feel the same way, but plenty of people more erudite than any of you -or I- have made salient, cogent & valid points, for months now. I'm sure some of it has sailed right past the comprehension of a lot of you, but what can be done about that? Nothing. Here's a fancy trick though, if youre caught up on the descriptions vs gender thing and you have 2years in which to do it faithfully and without exclusion due to bias ... write out all the POV characters and next to them, how they are described, every time theyre described. That's a start, anyway.

I'd like to see how that shakes out, but I wont be doing it. Id rather waste my fingerpads over Theon than try to convince anyone of what they dont seem to be equipped to understand.

[Woman of War]

To krakenhead:

I have nothing against finding sexism in the writng of these books, this is actually what people are doing in this thread.

And I am sure there is some be found, like in virtually any book because authors are products of their time, their more or less gender-oriented upbringing and their environment, like all of us.

If you look thouroughly you will find sexism in the works of Alice Munro or Günther Grass, Doris Lessing or Gabriel Garcia Marquez ( LOTS OF! ), depending on your personal concept of what sexism would be. See topics like sex and the appropriate age or "shipping" ( a topic where I personally find that some posters are awfully sexist, selling out little girls in their fantasies, my personal opinion, thoughts are free, the night is your own :blushing: and everybody is free to discuss it ;) )

The question can be: How much sexism is in a book, more than is to be expected given its genre, its timesetting and the publishing date? Gratuitious to thrill the readers or making sense in the context, more, sharper, uglier than in other books of the same category? Even the most sadistic and cruel description of sexual activity is not necessarily sexist, if it serves a pupose in the book ( Theon - Reek ). Sex may at first sight seem to be sex in those drastic scenes but sexual torture is torture using sex, so there should be started a debate of violence in books as well.

If readers see sexism in these books it should be discussed, I see some but I see more aspects convincing me that I am reading a good book, not so very much biased when it comes to gender stereotypes, especially compared to other books of the genre fantasy ( though posters might have a point with the description of Cersei - only a small point ). On the contrary. Now discussing if Brienne is Martin's alibi for not being called sexist or an interesting literary invention - well, she IS an interesting literary invention, I decide not to have double thoughts and to enjoy her.

And if finally a reader sees too much sexism in the books even to dicuss this topic any longer because the book as a whole is a hopeless case - stop reading, give it to the next garage sale and spoil your neighbours' children. I have done it with so many fantasy books, to the point that I was not willing to read that genre crap anymore. I won't do it with these books.

One more word ( edited ) : I rrrrreeeally enjoy well written sex scenes, i like them juicy, funny, graphic - this is not a childrens' book. I don't mind written pornography, no actor is exploited. Unfortunately there are sooo few situations where a really joyful sex scene might actually happen. Most are, like the books, pathetic, full of sadness, violence, at best "bittersweet" - but isn' t life bittersweet.? ;)

[kissdbyfire]

I agree with those who said that, if we are reading a POV of a character who is inherently sexist, that chapter will ‘read’ sexist’. And I think this serves a purpose, literarily. I disagree that the books are sexist in general. Whether I think this because the whole thing is above my level of comprehension is really not for me to say; if that is the case, I wouldn’t be aware of my inadequacies as reader. I think it is complicated to assess things that are subjective; erudition is one such, IMO. I know people who have read everything, with several universities degrees that would be considered erudite but fall appallingly short.

So, just because more erudite readers have been commenting on sexism in these books, or in GRRM’s work in general, doesn’t mean this is factual. I would imagine there are very erudite readers who don’t consider the books or GRRM’s work sexist. Suum cuique, to each his own. Interpretations are subjective, IMO.

I think GRRM has a true gift in creating these characters. When I read, for instance, a Cersei POV, I can picture her childhood in my head. I think about Jaime and her, before Tyrion was born, being raised by Tywin to believe they are better than everyone else, entitled to everything, and that the means justify the end – to name a few things. The mighty lord Tywin’s golden twins.

I’m not even going to go into what happens (in my head) when Tyrion is born.

As to Cersei, I don’t think she sees herself as superior to other women only; I think she thinks herself as superior to everyone. I also think this has to do with who she is, both constitutionally and because of her upbringing. To me, her biggest issue is that she is not only not perceived as a proper player in the game of thrones, and in fact isn't, because she is a woman. I think she is one of the characters who actually question the sexism in westerosi society. How often, in her POVs, does she think about how unfair it is for her not to be allowed to learn to fight, to rule in her own right? She is Jaime’s twin but she is also older than him; had the twins been both male, wouldn’t the one born first be the heir? She should be able to inherit Casterly Rock; she shouldn’t have to bend her will to her father’s, or her husband’s, or even her sons’. And, finally, I don’t think there ever was any love in her relationship with Jaime – on her part. I think she is a classic narcissist; her one true love is her own reflection. And she sees in Jaime not only herself, but also what she could have done/been if only she had been born a man. And even in this instance, I don’t think she wishes she had been born a man, necessarily. In my opinion, she only wishes she were in a position to have real power and be a major player in her own right, regardless of gender.

[I'dsingforyou]

I would argue that whilst she's not uncomfortable with her feminine body, she may be uncomfortable with what that feminine body represents. Sure she is able to exploit it, and use it to manipulate others, but IMO there is a disconnect not just in what that body now looks like, but in terms of how she identifies with it as a sexual being, and obviously with how much it limits her access to power and authority.

So true brashcandy. Her beauty was a double edged sword. It gave her power and she used that to her best advantage and sexual manipulation but on the flip side she never had true power because of she was a woman in that society born to never rule and the men couldn't see past that beauty to see her as a real contender in the game of thrones.

I never found the series sexist at all. I take it all in context and in those times things were what they were.

You would expect something different in today's civilised society (thankfully we have moved past public beheadings) but war can bring out the worst in people so in medieval days you would imagine the cruelty of those times would only be tenfold.

[headtrip_honey]

Happy Birthday to you all.

What do you have against anyone finding sexism in the writing of these books? You may not feel the same way, but plenty of people more erudite than any of you -or I- have made salient, cogent & valid points, for months now. I'm sure some of it has sailed right past the comprehension of a lot of you, but what can be done about that? Nothing. Here's a fancy trick though, if youre caught up on the descriptions vs gender thing and you have 2years in which to do it faithfully and without exclusion due to bias ... write out all the POV characters and next to them, how they are described, every time theyre described. That's a start, anyway.

I'd like to see how that shakes out, but I wont be doing it. Id rather waste my fingerpads over Theon than try to convince anyone of what they dont seem to be equipped to understand.

I have nothing against people who see sexism in these books. I see it myself.

The point I was trying to make (and clearly was unsuccessful - that's my own fault, I was rushed and did not compose my thoughts well) was that I do feel that some of the "GRRM describes unpleasant characters as ugly" argument is not always true - but this may come from the fact that I'm invested in Sansa's story line, a lot of which is finding out that fair faces often mask foul intentions.

What I have found is that there is a section of readers who, when describing certain characters they dislike, use their physical attributes as a means to insult them. In the case of Selyse, of course Stannis couldn't love her, she's a foul ugly bitch, amirite?

This is not to say that GRRM does not have latent sexism present in his writing. It's there. It's in a lot of authors' work. I don't like it. But it's been my experience that the majority of the sexism comes from the readers, not the original text. But that could just be how I see it.

[Shaggydog Stark]

So true brashcandy. Her beauty was a double edged sword. It gave her power and she used that to her best advantage and sexual manipulation but on the flip side she never had true power because of she was a woman in that society born to never rule and the men couldn't see past that beauty to see her as a real contender in the game of thrones.

I never found the series sexist at all. I take it all in context and in those times things were what they were.

You would expect something different in today's civilised society (thankfully we have moved past public beheadings) but war can bring out the worst in people so in medieval days you would imagine the cruelty of those times would only be tenfold.

I don't subscribe to this. If anything the QOT shows us that women do in fact have power. Here is an example of a woman who is old, not pretty but oh so dangerous! And LF has respect for her.

Other examples of women having power, we can agree or disagree on whether their decisions were wise, but it doesn't change the fact that it is because they have power that they can do these things and none of them use their sexuality:

1-Cat when she kidnaps Tyrion.

2-Lysa Arryn when she sends her letter to Cat and poisoning Jon Arryn

3-Lysa Arryn keeping the Vale out of the war

4-Arriane wanting to crown Myrcella (well maybe she did use her sexuality with Arys but not with everyone else)

5-Brienne of Tarth becoming a semi-knight

6-QOT (need I say more?)

7-Dany (she doesn't use her sexuality to gain power, she just enjoys sex in a healthy way so this does not apply to her.)

All these women, at times find things out of their control and have to submit to circumstances but I wouldn't call them exactly helpless. Each one has played a role in shaping the events of Westeros. And even Cersei submits to Tywin, so I don't see her any different from the others in that respect. And these women are just off the top of my head.

Dany, especially is much more beautiful than Cersei and she could have used sex as a tool but she doesn't. Using sex as a tool in my opinion is a cop out. This is another reason I so dislike Cersei, because all she does is reinforce the sexist attitudes of the society by her actions. None of the others do that. And the others have all had it much rougher than Cersei. Cersei was spoiled as a child, she was married to a king, power came to her easy while Dany had to fight for everything she has, every step of the way. If anyone's beauty could be called a double edged sword it would be Dany. She could have used her beauty to get things. She could have easily manipulated Ser Jorah, for example etc. But she doesn't!

At least we agree that GRRM is not being sexist, if he was he would have turned them all into sex nymphs. He doesn't do that. I have respect, compassion, etc. for the other female characters in the series, despite sometimes being exasperated by some of the stuff they do, I don't dislike them. I will criticize them when they deserve it but I will not condemn them. Cersei however, is a totally different nut. She has no conscience. She was a murderer as a child killing her friend out of jealousy. :stillsick:

In the chapter where she is helping Qyburn torture the Blue Bard, she doesn't even take responsibility for her actions and blames the torture on Margaery. Then she tells herself that she is doing all this for Tommen, when we know that in the previous chapter she discusses Maggy the Frog's prophecy with Qyburn and tells him she is afraid because another queen will cast her down. That is when Qyburn tells her you know what you have to do. That is when she starts to move against Margaery. Not for Tommen but for herself, because she does not want to be cast down. It's all about Cersei with her.

Cersei uses her being feminine and beautiful as an excuse for not being appreciated and respected, whereas the reality is that it has nothing to do with her sex but with who she is as a person that she gets no respect.

[Tini]

It was always all about Cersei with her. She often has more than one reason for her actions, but will not admit that even to herself. When she persuaded Jaime to join the King's Guard, it was not only about wanting to be together with Jaime. I think she was plotting even then to remove Jaime from the Lannister succession, and replace him as Tywin's heir. It is telling that she asked Jaime to give up his position in the King's Guard to become her Hand as soon as Tywin was dead and she was Lady of Casterly Rock.

[Shaggydog Stark]

It was always all about Cersei with her. She often has more than one reason for her actions, but will not admit that even to herself. When she persuaded Jaime to join the King's Guard, it was not only about wanting to be together with Jaime. I think she was plotting even then to remove Jaime from the Lannister succession, and replace him as Tywin's heir. It is telling that she asked Jaime to give up his position in the King's Guard to become her Hand as soon as Tywin was dead and she was Lady of Casterly Rock.

I always believed that is why she asked Jaime to join the KG too. Excellent point about wanting Jaime to be hand!

[holding]

Dany (she doesn't use her sexuality to gain power, she just enjoys sex in a healthy way so this does not apply to her.)

I think that Dany definitely uses her sexuality to gain power. The only power she has initially is as Khal Drogo's wife, and doesn't she specifically get this power through her sexual relationship with him? From what I remember he treats her like a slave until she learns to sexually manipulate him. The fact that she enjoys it and grows to love him doesn't change that. She also repeatedly makes use of her beauty to manipulate others, although it's true that she doesn't go as far as having sex with them. Is using the prospect of sex acceptable as long as you don't actually go through with it? All her power comes from her status as somebody's wife, and then once she loses that she conveniently acquires dragons, and the power that they bring, at which point she no longer needs to use her sexuality.

One thing I do find interesting about Dany is that at the beginning of her arc she tended to be a lot more empathetic and to relate to other women (in a way that Cersei really doesn't), attempting to help them by taking them as her slaves rather than let them be raped. I do feel like that's a side of her we see a lot less at this point; if anything she has become closer to Cersei in the way she thinks of herself and the sort of discourses surrounding her ("Dany looked at him helplessly. It was good that dragons did not cry"/"Because you're safe, [Cersei] wanted to tell him. Because no harm will ever come to you. 'You are mistaken. A lion never cries.'"). Dany repeats her line about being "just a young girl" but in her inner monologue thinks of herself in terms of being "the blood of the dragon", more linked to her dragons than womanhood. And of course, the fact that she is barren makes this literal - her power comes at the cost of her femaleness.

At least we agree that GRRM is not being sexist, if he was he would have turned them all into sex nymphs. He doesn't do that.

Except that sexism doesn't function in only one way. It is also sexist to, for example, privilege 'masculine' qualities and those who possess them over those considered 'feminine', and I would argue that this is exactly what he does in AGOT with Sansa and Arya.

Cersei however, is a totally different nut. She has no conscience. She was a murderer as a child killing her friend out of jealousy.

Completely unrelated to the issue of sexism, but I've seen this a few times and I'm curious - do we have any textual evidence for her killing Melara out of jealousy? I was under the impression that she killed her but we had yet to know a reason; she says something like "she taught me never to trust anyone but Jaime" and so I assumed that she betrayed Cersei in some way, leading to her murder.

[Shaggydog Stark]

I think that Dany definitely uses her sexuality to gain power. The only power she has initially is as Khal Drogo's wife, and doesn't she specifically get this power through her sexual relationship with him? From what I remember he treats her like a slave until she learns to sexually manipulate him. The fact that she enjoys it and grows to love him doesn't change that. She also repeatedly makes use of her beauty to manipulate others, although it's true that she doesn't go as far as having sex with them. Is using the prospect of sex acceptable as long as you don't actually go through with it? All her power comes from her status as somebody's wife, and then once she loses that she conveniently acquires dragons, and the power that they bring, at which point she no longer needs to use her sexuality.

Sometimes, I feel like I am reading a different book ;). I did not think Dany was trying to manipulate Drogo. I think of her as a realist and she found herself in a situation not of her making where she can either try to make the best of her circumstances or just be unhappy, resentful and vengeful. This girl is extremely adaptable to circumstances, and I rather think of that as one of her strengths which I really admire her for. The fact that they both fall in love with each other just shows me how wise she is for her age. She could have behaved like, shall we say, Cersei? Robert did force himself on her a few times, and how did Cersei deal with that situation? Compare her marriage to Robert with Dany's marriage to Drogo. Frankly, it's incomparable. Btw, I do not condone rape in marriages but in those times there was a smart way to deal with it and a stupid way. Dany chose the smart way. Dany finds ways of empowering herself whilst Cersei finds ways of undermining herself.

One thing I do find interesting about Dany is that at the beginning of her arc she tended to be a lot more empathetic and to relate to other women (in a way that Cersei really doesn't), attempting to help them by taking them as her slaves rather than let them be raped. I do feel like that's a side of her we see a lot less at this point; if anything she has become closer to Cersei in the way she thinks of herself and the sort of discourses surrounding her ("Dany looked at him helplessly. It was good that dragons did not cry"/"Because you're safe, [Cersei] wanted to tell him. Because no harm will ever come to you. 'You are mistaken. A lion never cries.'"). Dany repeats her line about being "just a young girl" but in her inner monologue thinks of herself in terms of being "the blood of the dragon", more linked to her dragons than womanhood. And of course, the fact that she is barren makes this literal - her power comes at the cost of her femaleness.

I still find Dany an empathetic character and not only to women, but to everyone in general. Again another quality that I admire about her but sometimes I get worried she will burn herself out, but that is another topic. I think it unfair to assume that just because she has dragons, she gains power. That really detracts from her character and is untrue! Her dragons brought her more problems when they were first hatched then solved any. She had to go through a desert, where many of those she loved died on the way. People began seeing ways of taking advantage of her so that they could get their hands on her dragons, etc. She has not had it easy and power has not come easy.

As for her thinking she is the blood of the dragon, I believe that many of the characters do that. Off the top of my head, I would say Arya does that. That seems to be the way families in Westeros relate to the sigils of their houses.

Except that sexism doesn't function in only one way. It is also sexist to, for example, privilege 'masculine' qualities and those who possess them over those considered 'feminine', and I would argue that this is exactly what he does in AGOT with Sansa and Arya.

I don't agree with this. Nowhere, have I as a reader, thought sewing was inferior to sword fighting. What GRRM does with Sansa in AGOT is project her as an innocent, young, naive girl who has become infatuated with the handsome prince right out of a song. She desperately wants to hold onto this belief which is why she turns a blind eye to many of his faults, etc.

I believe that this is all part of a greater character arc that he had planned for Sansa all along. Sansa has matured into a very respectable woman and as far as I know she has not picked up sword fighting along the way. Nor has her distaste for riding changed. But we all love her and she is one of the most feminine characters in the book. So where is the sexism? Whereas Arya, who happens to be one of my favorite characters, seems to be going down a dark path and I do not know if I like where she seems to be headed. So I am sorry but that is really an invalid argument.

Completely unrelated to the issue of sexism, but I've seen this a few times and I'm curious - do we have any textual evidence for her killing Melara out of jealousy? I was under the impression that she killed her but we had yet to know a reason; she says something like "she taught me never to trust anyone but Jaime" and so I assumed that she betrayed Cersei in some way, leading to her murder.

In AFFC, a Cersei chapter, I can't remember which one but Cersei has a dream of the whole encounter with Maggy the Frog. Towards the end of the dream when she wants to leave, Melara objects that she still hasn't had her reading. Cersei grabs her arm and tries to pull her out of the tent, so Melara blurts out her question about Jaime, wondering if he will marry her.

Maggy replies: "Not Jaime, nor any other man," said Maggy. "worms will have your maidenhead. Your death is here tonight, little one. Can you smell her breath? She is very close."