Sandor and Sansa II

[Rarm]

If Sandor is indeed still alive, there is no way he is not a better person now than what he was before. Isn't that the whole definition of a "redemption arc" ? Not saying that Jaime isn't on one, that's a horse of a different color :P but It would seem pretty likely from what we learn on his travels with Arya, that he has reached rock bottom and is bringing himself back up.

[Aeryon]

Initially I disliked Sansa and took to Arya's interpretation of her. She was raised to think herself as A Lady, rejecting any other reality - which did nothing to protect her from the coming storm. (On the other hand, Arya rejected the "Lady" notions. What an argument for nature over nurture, hey?) When this storm did come, my sympathy fell entirely on Sansa's side. By the end of the first book I empathized with her a lot better; then more and more as the books rolled on. (There's nothing like prolonged hostage-holding and torture to make us side with a character.) The recent events of her life have instilled her with more of a sense of reality and intelligence than I would have initially believed possible.

I agree about Catelyn, too. It's like I want to like her, but many of her actions make this impossible. As an agent of justice via Lady Stoneheart, however, I'm intrigued. I'd LOVE to see her killing off LF.

I tried to like and understand all the Starks. (I empathized most with Robb, Jon, Bran and Arya. Imagine my reaction during Bran's "death" and the Red Wedding.) From my understanding, Sansa is the least critical of them. Her POV (even her latter ones) shows that she is still reactive to her surroundings. Even the death of Ned was not enough to truly change her perspective. Part of my dislike for Sansa and Catelyn are their "high"born outlook towards Jon Snow. It's ironic that she's playing the part of a bastard.

[headtrip_honey]

I tried to like and understand all the Starks. (I empathized most with Robb, Jon, Bran and Arya. Imagine my reaction during Bran's "death" and the Red Wedding.) From my understanding, Sansa is the least critical of them. Her POV (even her latter ones) shows that she is still reactive to her surroundings. Even the death of Ned was not enough to truly change her perspective. Part of my dislike for Sansa and Catelyn are their "high"born outlook towards Jon Snow. It's ironic that she's playing the part of a bastard.

I'm not sure what you mean by "reactive to her surroundings." Please explain?

[headtrip_honey]

I tried to like and understand all the Starks. (I empathized most with Robb, Jon, Bran and Arya. Imagine my reaction during Bran's "death" and the Red Wedding.) From my understanding, Sansa is the least critical of them. Her POV (even her latter ones) shows that she is still reactive to her surroundings. Even the death of Ned was not enough to truly change her perspective. Part of my dislike for Sansa and Catelyn are their "high"born outlook towards Jon Snow. It's ironic that she's playing the part of a bastard.

Oh, and by the way, she thinks the same thing in AFFC re: her being a bastard:

"She had not thought of Jon in ages. He was only her half-brother, but still...with Robb and Bran and Rickon dead, Jon Snow was the only brother that remained to her. I am a bastard too, now, just like him. Oh, it would be so sweet, to see him once again."

[Rarm]

Oh, and by the way, she thinks the same thing in AFFC re: her being a bastard:

"She had not thought of Jon in ages. He was only her half-brother, but still...with Robb and Bran and Rickon dead, Jon Snow was the only brother that remained to her. I am a bastard too, now, just like him. Oh, it would be so sweet, to see him once again."

That was one of my favorite parts of her AFFC chapters I thought it was very sweet.

[kephv]

@Manyfacedone - there is a difference between having changes take place to you and actually changing. The former applies to Jaime - he didn't change so much as it was having his comfort levels changed.

You're right. Tough decisions always make themselves.

Also, his comfort levels? Like having his hand cut off, turning down his father's offer and practically being disowned, being put in a situation that where he's very likely to come into conflict with his vows that he's trying to successfully keep. He's been strained and tested at ever point. His journey has only become more difficult.

And everyone is shaped by their environment and their circumstances. Jaime's no different.

[brashcandy]

You're right. Tough decisions always make themselves.

Also, his comfort levels? Like having his hand cut off, turning down his father's offer and practically being disowned, being put in a situation that where he's very likely to come into conflict with his vows that he's trying to successfully keep. He's been strained and tested at ever point. His journey has only become more difficult.

And everyone is shaped by their environment and their circumstances. Jaime's no different.

Sorry, my wording was a bit off there. Anyways, my point is that Sandor seems to change from a real internal crisis, and this is why I believe his redemption is sincere, and why I believe he'll emerge a changed man. With regards to Jaime, he's lost his hand and he's lost his sister, but he still appears to be the same man we've always known. His desertion of Cersei is not because he's suddenly noble, and doesn't want to be involved in her schemes, but because he's upset over her treatment of him and the fact that she slept with some other guys. His loss of his hand might have weakened him, but he is still invested in the espousing the Lannister code of ethics (there are none) and protecting their interests. I have always believed that if Jaime is still alive when TWOW opens, that will be the real start of any redemption for him, not before.

[Rarm]

Sorry, my wording was a bit off there. Anyways, my point is that Sandor seems to change from a real internal crisis, and this is why I believe his redemption is sincere, and why I believe he'll emerge a changed man. With regards to Jaime, he's lost his hand and he's lost his sister, but he still appears to be the same man we've always known. His desertion of Cersei is not because he's suddenly noble, and doesn't want to be involved in her schemes, but because he's upset over her treatment of him and the fact that she slept with some other guys. His loss of his hand might have weakened him, but he is still invested in the espousing the Lannister code of ethics (there are none) and protecting their interests. I have always believed that if Jaime is still alive when TWOW opens, that will be the real start of any redemption for him, not before.

I think Jaime's "redemption" has more to do with the fact that we are seeing inside his head, and his side of the story, than with actual positive changes. We just are understanding his actions better.

[brashcandy]

You know what I find interesting in this contrast between Jaime and Sandor is that Sandor seems like a man with a lot still to live for. He's had an awful life so far, but I get the feeling that there is hope for him, not least because of his romantic connection to Sansa. This is why I think GRRM has made his redemption so clear to readers. Jaime on the other hand, seems like a man slowly moving towards death. His life now is about fulfilling oaths, and tying up loose ends. His great romance appears to be over, and he's filled with bitterness and regret. I don't see the attraction thing between him and Brienne honestly. It would be totally out of character for Jaime to fall for someone like that and GRRM has actually written better chemistry between Brienne and Ser Hyle.

We know the chemistry between Sandor and Sansa is off the charts ;) and honestly I hope Martin explores some more of this in TWOW. It would be too painful to not have them reconnect until ADOS. We've seen the violent, anti-social, broken side of Sandor, and whilst I don't want him to lose the essence of the man we know and love, I hope Martin hooks him back up with Sansa so we can see just how much he's changed in regards to how he interacts with her.

[Fire Eater]

And the Prophet said, "And lo, the beast looked upon the face of beauty. And it stayed its hand from killing. And from that day, it was as one dead."

Opening scene from King Kong

[Rossi]

Sandor, as much as I think him the most awesome character next to Jaime, is Done with. He is chillin on the Quiet Isle for ever more. All y'all want him to come back and be some fierce saviour knight, and it ain't gonna happen kids. Face the facts. He has been awesome, for like, at least three books. Now he's beat up, injured, stabbed, bad magic'd, still blue ballin for Sansa, and luckily he still has his crazy ass rip snortin horse to pet. Methinks Sandor's arc is doooone, unfortunately. Cuz I'd love to see him tear shit up in Kings Landing. But it ain't gonna happen. He Is Retired. For Good.

Deal with it.

[Zmeischa]

He wanted her to turn hateful and ugly like he did when he lost all his illusions of valiant knights, and instead she continued to be compassionate and kind to others -- even those who didn't deserve it.

I beg to disagree. He doesn't want her to turn hateful. When he derides her obsession with "true knight", he is projecting a lot, it is really more about the feelings that he used to have as a child than anything else. I believe that in a very twisted way he is trying to protect her, by breaking her illusions in advance, so she wouldn's suffer the way he did. (And I'm sure that his dissapointment in knighthood and gods hurt as much as actual burns). But - well, he is clearly jealous, because she had managed to keep the naive faith which he had lost in such a terrible way. So he is half fascinated by her innocence, half scared for her, because she is so trusting and helpless, half envious, and half mad at himself for being so hateful to this sweet child. (That was four halves, right? :drunk: )

BTW, hi everyone.

[1234567]

Hello Zemischa! That was a great little post.

Something occurred to me this morning, in the Sansa chapter following the Purple Wedding.

The lines are : "I could never abide the weeping of women, Joff once said".

However the only people who heard that line are Sandor and Tyrion. Would one of them have told her about it? I was just interested as it may tie up with the mis-memory of the kiss.

Although I am not so sure that Sansa is wargging Sandor or anything like that because of her other mis-memory regarding the name of Joff's sword.

[voodooqueen126]

Hello Zemischa! That was a great little post.

Something occurred to me this morning, in the Sansa chapter following the Purple Wedding.

The lines are : "I could never abide the weeping of women, Joff once said".

However the only people who heard that line are Sandor and Tyrion. Would one of them have told her about it? I was just interested as it may tie up with the mis-memory of the kiss.

Although I am not so sure that Sansa is wargging Sandor or anything like that because of her other mis-memory regarding the name of Joff's sword.

Perhaps he said it more than once.

[FanTasy]

I beg to disagree. He doesn't want her to turn hateful. When he derides her obsession with "true knight", he is projecting a lot, it is really more about the feelings that he used to have as a child than anything else. I believe that in a very twisted way he is trying to protect her, by breaking her illusions in advance, so she wouldn's suffer the way he did. (And I'm sure that his dissapointment in knighthood and gods hurt as much as actual burns). But - well, he is clearly jealous, because she had managed to keep the naive faith which he had lost in such a terrible way. So he is half fascinated by her innocence, half scared for her, because she is so trusting and helpless, half envious, and half mad at himself for being so hateful to this sweet child. (That was four halves, right? :drunk: )

BTW, hi everyone.

Nice post! I do hope we will hear more about Sandor in the books that are due. I doubt somehow that Sandor will meet Sansa again but it would be nice to know more about what made Sandor act towards Sansa as he did - and towards Arya. Maybe what happened to his sister had something to do with it? She is mentioned somewhere but we know nothing about her. GRRM said somewhere in an interview that she is dead but how old she was, how she died, it is not known. Maybe Gregor was as unpleasant and cruel to her as he was towards his brother.

[voodooqueen126]

Nice post! I do hope we will hear more about Sandor in the books that are due. I doubt somehow that Sandor will meet Sansa again but it would be nice to know more about what made Sandor act towards Sansa as he did - and towards Arya. Maybe what happened to his sister had something to do with it? She is mentioned somewhere but we know nothing about her. GRRM said somewhere in an interview that she is dead but how old she was, how she died, it is not known. Maybe Gregor was as unpleasant and cruel to her as he was towards his brother.

I think for word to have reached Ned up North... what happened to Gregor's sister must have been infamous in the Westerlands....

[Zmeischa]

Sandor is on an extended pity party because he's done bad things, and was robbed of killing his brother.

I've wondered about it for some time. Did he really intend to kill Gregor? He said that a lot, and it is a common knowledge of sorts, but when it come to his feelings, Sandor is the most inreliable narrator ever. It's not that he is a liar (far from that), but he always tries to appear cruel, heartless, fearless and terribly byronic. Elder Brother evidently fell for this act, but need we do the same?

Sure, Sandor has ample reasons to kill Gregor, and is not afraid to be a kinslayer, because he doesn't believe in gods (or he says so - abundantly). But - have you ever seen him try? He had and excellent opportunity at the Tourney of the King, who would blame him, if he "by chance" killed his brother while defending Loras's life? Such thing happen during melees, terrible misfortune, lots of witnesses to confirm that Gregor started it... Sandor does not strike him once. While Gregor, by the way, tries to murder him in earnest.

Then again, after Sandor leaves KL, nothing can stop him from searching for Gregor and attempting to cut off his head. Does he even try? No, he drinks, he falls asleep under trees, he kidnaps Arya, and behaves like he has no "goal in life" at all. On the other hand, Gregor's henchmen are all aware that taking Sandor captive or killing him will win them Gregor's favors. That's what a man out for his brother's blood looks like.

[1234567]

In AGOT even Ned notices that Sandor doesn't aim for Gregor's uncovered head, which would have been an easy target, as it's big enough after all! Sandor's actions can be compared to the Inigo Montoya phrase that I've been in the revenge business so long I don't know what to do: he wants to kill his brother but as it is all he lives for he also doesn't want to as well. Sometimes I think he wanted recognition from Gregor of what he did to him.

[A Maidens Fantasy]

In AGOT even Ned notices that Sandor doesn't aim for Gregor's uncovered head, which would have been an easy target, as it's big enough after all! Sandor's actions can be compared to the Inigo Montoya phrase that I've been in the revenge business so long I don't know what to do: he wants to kill his brother but as it is all he lives for he also doesn't want to as well. Sometimes I think he wanted recognition from Gregor of what he did to him.

Agree on the bolded part. And if he cannot get recognition from Gregor, I think he would like to burn him rather than kill him with a sword since this would be a clean death.

[Zmeischa]

Hello Zemischa! That was a great little post.

Although I am not so sure that Sansa is wargging Sandor or anything like that because of her other mis-memory regarding the name of Joff's sword.

Hi!

I'm sure she is not wargging him. We've already seen the reaction of a human to the intrusion of the skinchanger. It's an extremely traumatic event, there is no way it could pass unnoticed by either party. I believe Sansa could skinchange into a dog, given the right surcumstances (we already know that it is the easiest animal), but not into a man. It would take many years of marriage :drunk: .

Nice post! I do hope we will hear more about Sandor in the books that are due. I doubt somehow that Sandor will meet Sansa again but it would be nice to know more about what made Sandor act towards Sansa as he did - and towards Arya. Maybe what happened to his sister had something to do with it? She is mentioned somewhere but we know nothing about her. GRRM said somewhere in an interview that she is dead but how old she was, how she died, it is not known. Maybe Gregor was as unpleasant and cruel to her as he was towards his brother.

Well, he obviously has some issues concerning children (and I don't mean it in a bad way). It is probably related to what happened to him, to what happened to his sister, and to the years he spent with Joffrey. He is protective of children, but his protection wastly consists of "telling them that this world is a dark, cruel, dangerous place and teaching them how to defend themselves". It might be a good idea (the world of Westeros is a dark and cruel place, after all), but he really, really, really should have minded his mouth with Joffrey. All this "i killed a man when I was twelve"... Seriously? That is the kind of things you say to a twelve-year boy? Especially that kind of boy. Especially if he can send you to kill other boys. Terrible.