Catelyn is an idiot

[David Selig]

I still firmly believe that what she eventually becomes is an ironic mirror of what she already was inside. Cold and vindictive.

Cat has qualities but empathy and mercy are not among them.

Take Jaime and Brienne. Cat's uses them, she doesn't "care" about either of them.

Cat certainly cared about Brienne a quite a bit. She saved her life even though she barely knew her and it was quite risky, took her with her to Riverrun, accepted the offered oath of fealty, and gave her an important task of the type which Brienne desperately wanted.

As fro Jaime, she deeply loathed him, but releasing was the only way she saw to get her daughters back.

The lack of empathy is often cited as one of Catelyn's flaws, but I've never understood why. Look at her praying in the cept in ACOK - she showed plenty of empathy towards even Cersei. When Mya Stone told her the name of her love, she felt sad for her because she knew a noble won't stay for long with someone like Mya.

Her feelings of shame later do not get specifically defined, but it never even occurred to me that she felt guilty about what she said to Jon.

We have this:

Catelyn had nothing against this girl, but suddenly she could not help but think of Ned’s bastard on the Wall, and the thought made her angry and guilty, both at once.

[Ygrette]

@Imp Beyond the Wall

I agree that Catelyn is not the kind of person who cares overly much about the greater good, "the realm" or the wellbeing or freedom of people in general (unlike Dany). Catelyn's compassion is very much limited to her family and Winterfell/Riverrun and its people, even the lower ones. What defines her in my perception is her love and loyalty towards her family and Winterfell/Riverrun. Sure, everyone else can get lost if you ask her. And everyone who poses a threat to her family and/or Winterfell can't expect mercy from her. This may not be a very loveable trait if you happen not to be part of her family and may be perceived as narrow-minded. But I also believe she's still generally just and honorable, not like Cersei and her statement that "the enemy is everyone who is not us".

She doesn't want to eliminate everyone else, she doesn't even care too much about power or Robb being king of Westeros or king of the North. I believe all she wants is her family and people to be left in peace.

For some reason she believes Jon is a potential threat to her family.

@Phat Walda

Oh I think I get where you're coming from. I agree that her rejection of Jon is genuine. She truly has no love for him, that much is clear and that's the part I cannot understand as well. It's not right to blame a child for what the father did. She should have discussed it with Ned and eventually overcome her feelings towards Jon. I just don't think that her falsely projected feelings towards Jon define who she is in a whole.

To me, she is a lot more than "the woman who couldn't get over her husband's unfaithfulness". There are more facets of her personality than just her incapability to love/accept Jon.

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

"Cat certainly cared about Brienne a quite a bit." -- Ya think? She was not hostile toward Brienne, but I thought she regarded her on the level of a servant.

Admittedly I have re-reads to do, and maybe I see see more nuance as I go, but thought Cat tended to see people in terms of what they could do for her, rather than for any intrinsic "human" value they posessed. Hosters banners that help her arrest Tyrion for instance.

I got the sense that the wheels never stopped turning, all head, no heart.

[Balefont]

"Cat certainly cared about Brienne a quite a bit." -- Ya think? She was not hostile toward Brienne, but I thought she regarded her on the level of a servant.

Admittedly I have re-reads to do, and maybe I see see more nuance as I go, but thought Cat tended to see people in terms of what they could do for her, rather than for any intrinsic "human" value they posessed. Hosters banners that help her arrest Tyrion for instance.

I got the sense that the wheels never stopped turning, all head, no heart.

I can understand this impression.

Perhaps when you do a re-read, you might be closer to the mark if you take her point of view as protecting her family/survival of her children. She has to be calculating at all times because trusting to truth, justice, and the Stark way will get your head chopped off.

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

[T]rusting to truth, justice, and the Stark way will get your head chopped off.

Very true. No argument there.

It is hard for me to give Cat very much credit for anything she does in defense of her own blood, because I see that as an extension of herself. It's with other people where I think she a disturbing lack of empathy. I am not saying Cat is a monster, she obviously has courage, intelligence, determination and certain leadership qualities, but I think there is a serious flaw in there somewhere.

Even Cersei, who is thoroughly narcissistic, loves her children.

[Ygrette]

Catelyn as I understand her extends her loyalty and love not only towards her own blood, but to her people as well. She treats everyone in Winterfell, including servants and smallfolk, with dignity and respect and I believe she truly cares for them. If I remember correctly, she includes them in her prayers in the septon near Storm's End. I can't believe she'd enjoy it if any of them suffered.

She does have an unjustified issue with Jon. And I'm not sure I could explain the why's and how's of that relationship beyond the fact that she seems him as a potential threat and reminder of Ned's unfaithfulness. But my point is, her undoubtedly unfortunate relationship with Jon is an isolated issue, not an expression of her general cruel personality and also not a reason to believe that she enjoys "picking on the weak".

She does not pick on Jon in general, just because he's of a lower status. Jon angers her for very personal, deep and individual reasons. Not because she just hates everyone who's not a highborn Tully/Baratheon/Stark.

Her issue with Jon is just that, an issue with Jon. She has strong feelings against him. I do not fully understand those feelings, but I do respect the fact that she usually does not act upon those feelings. She might give him a stern look or a snappy remark here or there and there was this one outburst, but I can't see that she proactively follows him around to make him feel miserable.

[ICE CROW]

Catelyn as I understand her extends her loyalty and love not only towards her own blood, but to her people as well. She treats everyone in Winterfell, including servants and smallfolk, with dignity and respect and I believe she truly cares for them. If I remember correctly, she includes them in her prayers in the septon near Storm's End. I can't believe she'd enjoy it if any of them suffered.

She does have an unjustified issue with Jon. And I'm not sure I could explain the why's and how's of that relationship beyond the fact that she seems him as a potential threat and reminder of Ned's unfaithfulness. But my point is, her undoubtedly unfortunate relationship with Jon is an isolated issue, not an expression of her general cruel personality and also not a reason to believe that she enjoys "picking on the weak".

She does not pick on Jon in general, just because he's of a lower status. Jon angers her for very personal, deep and individual reasons. Not because she just hates everyone who's not a highborn Tully/Baratheon/Stark.

Her issue with Jon is just that, an issue with Jon. She has strong feelings against him. I do not fully understand those feelings, but I do respect the fact that she usually does not act upon those feelings. She might give him a stern look or a snappy remark here or there and there was this one outburst, but I can't see that she proactively follows him around to make him feel miserable.

i think this is a great post, the problem is everyone is basing there accusations of Catelyns "evil" solely based on her relationship with Jon. Yea she said some mean things in Bran's room, but staying with the heart of this series "Words are Wind".

[David Selig]

"Cat certainly cared about Brienne a quite a bit." -- Ya think? She was not hostile toward Brienne, but I thought she regarded her on the level of a servant.

Admittedly I have re-reads to do, and maybe I see see more nuance as I go, but thought Cat tended to see people in terms of what they could do for her, rather than for any intrinsic "human" value they posessed. Hosters banners that help her arrest Tyrion for instance.

I got the sense that the wheels never stopped turning, all head, no heart.

It's interesting how people's impression on the same character can be so drastically different. Many posters (some even in this thread) consider Catelyn is too emotional and irrational, making decision with her heart instead of her head, etc. ;)

As for Brienne - I don't think Catelyn save her from death and take her take her into her service mostly because that was useful to her and she wanted to use her. The most rational (but also cold and ruthless) course of action would've been to left her to be killed by Renly's guards. At the time she had no idea she'd have much need of a personal retainer sworn to her since Rob would've given her 20 knights if she asked.

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

Catelyn as I understand her extends her loyalty and love not only towards her own blood, but to her people as well. ... I can't believe she'd enjoy it if any of them suffered.

She does have an unjustified issue with Jon...she seems him as a potential threat and reminder of Ned's unfaithfulness..."picking on the weak".

Jon angers her for very personal, deep and individual reasons. Not because she just hates everyone who's not a highborn Tully/Baratheon/Stark.

I don't think that Cat is a sociopath who delights in cruelty, I think she is selfish. I would imagine that Lord Tywin is loyal to his household, more or less, and probably does not go out of his way to see them suffer (Unless it advances his plans somehow).

As far as Jon is concerned, her beef is with Ned but she takes it out on Jon. She may not be a class bound snob to the degree some others are but I see her as a "kicking down" at weaker Jon because she can get away with it, rather than giving Ned 14 years worth of grief over Jon, because that would have been WAY more difficult for her. I can't accept "she didn't give Ned hell because it wasn't a woman's place" either, because we know that Cat can buck convention when she is motivated to do so. I don't think she is a mad woman, I think she is calculating and self-absorbed. Maybe a bit hypocritical. Her son is everything, her son's brother is nothing.

I think it shows that something is lacking in her character that she can not recognize the similarity of Jon and Robb, and their bond as brothers, and how hard Jon is trying to live up to being Ned's son. It is not the situation or even time necessarily that I think should have softened her heart, it's Jon, who tries so damned hard. If Cat had not driven him to the wall, when Robb stood for King in the North, I guarantee, Jon Snow would have had his back. Who knows, Jon and Ghost might have saved both their lives.

There are psychos in the story who engage in wanton cruelty, Joff, Ramsay, Gregor. Cat is nothing like any of them. She is not a psycho. Nor is she a "no conscience" back stabber like Petyr. My point about her "using" people, Jaime and Brienne for example, is to say Cat is player in the "Game of Thrones" (not unlike Cersei but with greater skill). She knows what is going on and she knows what she is doing. She takes threats and slights to her blood seriously, but not particularly sentimentally. The break down over Bran shows that she is human, but as soon as it is clear that it was an attack, rather than an accident she goes right into retaliation mode. That is not entirely a criticism, just an observation, head rules over heart.

Take Little Finger, she knows his back story, she knows his feelings for her. Doesn't it say that she never bothered to see him again afer the duel with Brandon? But she did not hesitate to use him in King Landing. He's a dirty dog who stabs her in the back, but from her perspective I think she saw a resource more than an actual "person," and that is kind of what blinds her to Petyr's treachery.

Here is another bit of heresy that will probably get me flamed, I wonder how much actual romantic love there was for Ned. She was fond of him and she was a loyal wife, obviously, but I think it was a little chilly (that could have been as much Ned as Cat). Seems like she took his death fairly unsentimentally. Ned and Winterfell represented her position and security, but maybe not her passionate love.

I say she is cold, hard, calculating and merciless, not at all likely to forgive an insult. It remains to be seen how much Cat persists in Un-Cat but it would not surprise me if it were quite a bit. Un-Cat seems "in character."

@David Selig - I cannot answer for anyone elses impressions of this character. I see a cold fish rather than a hothead. All I can do is be honest. :-)

[Phat Walda]

ETA: Even Phat Walda's post content has shown dramatic improvement over the course of the thread.

:cheers:

[Phat Walda]

i think this is a great post, the problem is everyone is basing there accusations of Catelyns "evil" solely based on her relationship with Jon. Yea she said some mean things in Bran's room, but staying with the heart of this series "Words are Wind".

I don't know if anyone else has said that she's "evil", but I certainly don't think that. I just don't like her, but "evil" she ain't.

[Noelle Snow]

I don't think she is a mad woman, I think she is calculating and self-absorbed. Maybe a bit hypocritical. Her son is everything, her son's brother is nothing.

I've been lurking for quite a while and am making my first post just to agree with this and extend on it. It's not just "her son's brother is nothing" - other people's sons are nothing as well. I agree with a lot of what has been said of Cat in terms of her being selfish, cold, and self-absorbed. I don't think she's evil or maliciously cruel. But "not cruel" doesn't equate to "nice".

My point about it's all about her children and to hell with everyone else's is her reaction and complete lack of empathy to Rickard Karstark and his reaction to the death of his sons. She would do or say anything to protect or avenge her sons but can't possibly understand why Karstark may feel the same. She even says at one point that he shouldn't be upset because they died defending their liege lord as they were required to do. To a parent who's grieving, she should get that it doesn't matter how your children died, just that they're dead. And then turns around and shrugs off others' anger and grief over her releasing Jaime because all that matters was that it was in her best interest to do so. I'm not debating whether it was wrong or right of her to do so. Just that she did it based on what she wanted and it didn't matter what others may have needed for their own family peace.

As far as Jon is concerned, I don't believe at all that her cruel comments to Jon in Bran's room were an isolated incident. Jon's reaction to just entering the room, Robb's apprehension about how the interaction went and other moments such as these let me know that in no time in those 14 years did she ever have a kind word or gesture to that boy. Perhaps she never said anything as cruel as saying he should be the one dying instead of Bran, but there's plenty of ways to emotionally and verbally abuse children without saying or doing extreme things such as that. Sansa's whole "he's our half brother" bit and all the children referring to him as their "bastard brother", where do you think they got that from? I doubt it was Ned.

Now I'm not a mother but I have some experience with this as my father had a son with another woman while he was married to my mother. As angry and hurt as my mother was, she always made a point of not taking her anger out on my brother because, as she says, "he didn't ask to be here". Now my brother didn't live with us, but she did make sure that he and I eventually met and got to know each other. If anyone took their anger out on him, it was me, not my mom. And I got past that once I realized who I needed to be angry towards. She was even able to deal with him on family trips sometimes.

Now I'm not saying Cat should have embraced Jon with all her heart. That's a lot to ask of anyone. But I don't get how in 14 years you couldn't find any place in your heart for this child that you pretty much raised and took all your anger and resentment for your husband's infidelity out on the child. That, in my mind, makes her not a nice person.

[Phat Walda]

I've been lurking for quite a while and am making my first post just to agree with this and extend on it. It's not just "her son's brother is nothing" - other people's sons are nothing as well. I agree with a lot of what has been said of Cat in terms of her being selfish, cold, and self-absorbed. I don't think she's evil or maliciously cruel. But "not cruel" doesn't equate to "nice".

My point about it's all about her children and to hell with everyone else's is her reaction and complete lack of empathy to Rickard Karstark and his reaction to the death of his sons. She would do or say anything to protect or avenge her sons but can't possibly understand why Karstark may feel the same. She even says at one point that he shouldn't be upset because they died defending their liege lord as they were required to do. To a parent who's grieving, she should get that it doesn't matter how your children died, just that they're dead. And then turns around and shrugs off others' anger and grief over her releasing Jaime because all that matters was that it was in her best interest to do so. I'm not debating whether it was wrong or right of her to do so. Just that she did it based on what she wanted and it didn't matter what others may have needed for their own family peace.

As far as Jon is concerned, I don't believe at all that her cruel comments to Jon in Bran's room were an isolated incident. Jon's reaction to just entering the room, Robb's apprehension about how the interaction went and other moments such as these let me know that in no time in those 14 years did she ever have a kind word or gesture to that boy. Perhaps she never said anything as cruel as saying he should be the one dying instead of Bran, but there's plenty of ways to emotionally and verbally abuse children without saying or doing extreme things such as that. Sansa's whole "he's our half brother" bit and all the children referring to him as their "bastard brother", where do you think they got that from? I doubt it was Ned.

Now I'm not a mother but I have some experience with this as my father had a son with another woman while he was married to my mother. As angry and hurt as my mother was, she always made a point of not taking her anger out on my brother because, as she says, "he didn't ask to be here". Now my brother didn't live with us, but she did make sure that he and I eventually met and got to know each other. If anyone took their anger out on him, it was me, not my mom. And I got past that once I realized who I needed to be angry towards. She was even able to deal with him on family trips sometimes.

Now I'm not saying Cat should have embraced Jon with all her heart. That's a lot to ask of anyone. But I don't get how in 14 years you couldn't find any place in your heart for this child that you pretty much raised and took all your anger and resentment for your husband's infidelity out on the child. That, in my mind, makes her not a nice person.

:agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree:

[David Selig]

*edit* Damn, I wrote I long post which somehow got messed up for the most part, had to rewrite most of it. Anyway..

My point about it's all about her children and to hell with everyone else's is her reaction and complete lack of empathy to Rickard Karstark and his reaction to the death of his sons. She would do or say anything to protect or avenge her sons but can't possibly understand why Karstark may feel the same. She even says at one point that he shouldn't be upset because they died defending their liege lord as they were required to do. To a parent who's grieving, she should get that it doesn't matter how your children died, just that they're dead.

I am pretty sure you're misremembering and Catelyn never said that. More precisely, she said something along the second part only ("Your men did what they were sworn to do, Robb. They died protecting their liege lord. Grieve for them. Honor them for their valor.) and Lord Karstark wasn't there when she said it. I think she clearly understood Lord Rickard's feelings and that was one of the reasons she wanted Robb to punish her - so he could get at least some partial satisfaction and lessen his anger.

Here is another bit of heresy that will probably get me flamed, I wonder how much actual romantic love there was for Ned. She was fond of him and she was a loyal wife, obviously, but I think it was a little chilly (that could have been as much Ned as Cat). Seems like she took his death fairly unsentimentally. Ned and Winterfell represented her position and security, but maybe not her passionate love.

Flame mode on!

Just kidding. ;)

I'll only post two quotes from the books.

First Catelyn PoV after Ned's death:

It was a stirring sight, yet it did not lift her heart. She wondered if indeed her heart would ever lift again. Oh, Ned …

Later on, middle of ACOK:

Catelyn had not eaten today. Perhaps that had been unwise. She told herself that there had been no time, but the truth was that food had lost its savor in a world without Ned. When they took his head off, they killed me too.

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

@David Selig -- Thanks. More info is more info.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

One thing that makes me particularly like Catelyn is that she is kind of the exception in the Stark family. Those characteristics of hers that people criticize (though I might not agree completely there is some point) makes her a better player of the game than Ned and she seems to care more about her family first and how to achieve its safety than say honor. So in my view the Starks gain something from having Catelyn in their family, and her existence increases their chances of self-preservation. As I like the Starks that is a positive.

Now to be clear I don't think that Catelyn doesn't care about other people's children and people, I actually think that she does care. The difference is that when push comes to shove her priority is her family like the Tully words say and in those cases she cares mostly for her family when she makes decisions more than say Ned. If she was in Ned's shoes I don't see her going to Cersei and that different action has a positive and a negative.

Like all people of the Stark family as of the start of the story I think she is a good person actually but there are some aspects of her personality than in a great tragedy can lead into a vindictive person and I do believe that some part of Cat remains in Uncat. Even if she wasn't a zombie and she retained her memories, what happened her at the red wedding would have affected her dearly because firstly great tragedy does affect us all and could lead to a person with similar reactions and priorities. Now considering how much tragedy happens to her from the very start of the story (and yes she did love Ned she is however a person that after the first tragedy stroke she was more composed so she can help her children without being lost in saddness but I guess she probably loved him less than her children as silly to compare loves is) and how she coped with it, I don't think she wasn't a good person until she lost everything. Then she became obsessed with revenge and became lost.

[Ygrette]

I think it all boils down to the fact that we all read the same book - but we all fill the gaps of what is NOT written in the book differently.

I like Cat, because I assume that she did not "take all her anger and resentment for your husband's infidelity out on the child". I believe she never acted on those feelings. She did not love him, but neither did she abuse him except from what we see in her one outburst. GRRM failed to makes this clear within the books, but he supports this view somehow by saying it was an isolated incident.

Some of you don't like Cat, because you assume she's been mean to Jon all the time while we've not been looking. I agree that she has not been kind to him, but neither has she been cruel. That may be seen as cruelty in itself by some, but not by me.

And about her love to Ned... read David Selig's quotes... these lines almost choke me to tears. I never doubted that she loved Ned, quite the contrary. I believe all her coldness after his death is deeply rooted in her feeling of loss, mourning and having died with her beloved Ned. *goes get some tissues*

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Ok. To jump back in, let me say that when I think of why I don't like Cat the first thing my mind goes to is not the incident at Jon's bedside. It gets so much discussion because there is a gigantic gap between the way people see the scene. To me it's setting the stage for who the characters Jon and Cat are and what their relationship is. I feel the need to strongly disagree when people say that it is actually a scene meant to show us how much Catelyn is suffered not only from Bran's fall but also from 14 years of being under the cruel yoke of having to be near a child who has done her no harm but who represents an insult to her honor. And I think she did mistreat and abuse Jon for his whole life, that's what he was running from. And I want to parse that GRRM quote a little bit where he's asked about mistreatment.

"Mistreatment" is a loaded word. Did Catelyn beat Jon bloody? No. Did she distance herself from him? Yes. Did she verbally abuse and attack him? No. (The instance in Bran's bedroom was obviously a very special case). But I am sure she was very protective of the rights of her own children, and in that sense always drew the line sharply between bastard and trueborn where issues like seating on the high table for the king's visit were at issue. And Jon surely knew that she would have preferred to have him elsewhere."

Ok there it I've put it in my own post no one can accused me of ignoring it :P . His immediate reply is '"Mistreatment is a loaded word."'- when people resist a term because of it's connotations what they are usually saying is, 'well, it depends on what you mean by that term'- and usually does not mean that the term entirely does not apply. So then GRRM clarifies: No beatings and no verbal abuse and attacking save for the incident by Bran's bedside. All well and good. But then he says some other things, which are important to look at too in light of the fact that he has chosen not to reject the term 'mistreat' but instead to clarify the meaning of it. And so he tells us she would always be certain to draw a sharp line between Ned's trueborn and bastard children. So if the King is coming to Winterfell for a feast and Cat says to Ned and everyone in front of Jon and the other children, 'no way we're putting the bastard on the dais that's an insult to the Royal Family,' that is mistreatment. I can see your replies coming about her being right that he royal family may have been offended and that is not the point, the point is how would you feel as a child if you heard this type of thing your whole life. Because Martin so spake that Cat clearly drew these types of lines frequently and Jon knew it damn well. A direct verbal lashing it may not be; but an emotionally affecting, potentially scarring form of mistreatment it certainly is.

I initially intended not to spend two paragraphs on Jon & Cat and instead talk about other things. I don't know if my fingers have the energy or my hangover addled mind can handle the points I wanted to make, so maybe I'll come back later to make my other super-secret-excellent-trumpcard-argument-winning-points. For now, I agree with those who have called Cat selfish and not compassionate, etc, etc. Some really awesome points are being made by my fellow anti-Cat partisans! :commie:

[David Selig]

But how it's mistreatment Jon not to be seated on the royal table? It's basic protocol - only the trueborn high nobles gets places there. Nobody else from those living in Winterfell was seated there either. I doubt even if Ned had to decide on his own, he'd have put Jon on the table - he's willing to disregard conventions to a degree, but it was hardly a secret that Cersei is touchy about bastards and Robert doesn't dare bring his own to the capital. That's even without taking into account the "R+L=J" theory.

I don't see what's so wrong with Catelyn drawing sharp line between her children and Jon. Fact is he's not her child, neither is she expected to be any kind of stepmother to him. It's also a fact that trueborn children and bastards have very different prospects in life in Westeros and pretending it isn't so won't change that.

Besides, one of the main expected responsibilities of someone in Ned or Cat's position is to try to avoid anything that could create potential problems with the succession. That's why it was necessary for her to draw clear lines between Jon and his siblings. An acknowledged bastard is a threat for his trueborn siblings, and more so the more he's treated the same as them by the Lord and the Lady. I think lowering the chance of a succession struggle (which can potential lead to plenty of deaths and sufferings) is worth hurting the feelings of one child. You may disagree, of course, but the situation is a lot more complicated than Catelyn being mean to Jon just because she was selfish, cold, her pride was hurt and he was a remainder of Ned's infidelity. A major part of her motivation is selfish in as much as protecting her children could be considered selfish, but she was also thinking about the bigger picture.

And before anyone says "But Jon would've never done that since he is honourable and loves his siblings" - Cat had no way to know this for sure, especially when Jon was younger, since people change with age. Jon's possible children were also a potential thread.

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

Two small points:

1) I think maybe I was reading too much into the circumstances of Cat and Ned's marriage (i.e. it was arranged, first it was Brandon, then it was Ned, then it was war, then there is this baby) and that maybe that expalined why Cat was so "weird" in my opinion. It actually mitigates in her favor in a way in that if she was all along making the best of a situation that was not exactly her hearts desire than maybe it is undersnadable why she remains a little salty. However, the quotes provided, 9and others not provided) indicate the Cat and Ned loved each other "ENOUGH" that it is not really an issue. I was off base on that.

2) One of the reasons why I put so much stock in the scene by Bran's sick bed is that the moment was just Jon and Cat. No one as watching. It was a moment where class and convention and even past resentments and slights need not rule day. It was private, they were both scared for Bran and emotionally vulnerable. It is not explicitedly stated this way, but Jon seems to be saying, "Putting our THING aside, I feel your pain." And the best she can manage is, "F-You bastard." That is why it defines the two characters for me. In my mind Jon's defining quality (up to that point anyway) is that he wants to fit in as a Stark, in Cat's eyes as much as Ned's in a way, and her defining quality is, "I cannot yield, I cannot forgive, not even in secret, not even just between us."