Catelyn is an idiot

[Light a wight tonight]

Another stroke of genius by Cat at the Red Wedding: Hmmm, the Freys have armor on under their party duds; I guess I'll go have a discussion with the Maester about the bride-to-be's breeding prospects.

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

I think OnionAhaiReborn has the right of it. Cat regretted falling apart. I don't think she spared half a thought for Jon Snow. Cat was not a monster of even the worst mother in the story but she was cold hearted and vindictive. Which only made her ultimate fate all the more ironic. I won't say that she cared too much for her own children but IMO she clearly did not care enough for the children of others. I go back again to Ned in Kings Landing...there were three potential pretenders to the thrown but he could not throw them under the wayn because they somebodies children. It got him killed but it was in his character to act as he did. He was too noble for the Game of Thrones. Not so with Cat, she was good at the Game of Thrones up to a point but she did not win. Not yet anyway. And as far as she knows she has lost all. Each of her beloved children was taken from her. She is tragic but she is not good.

[Balefont]

Another stroke of genius by Cat at the Red Wedding: Hmmm, the Freys have armor on under their party duds; I guess I'll go have a discussion with the Maester about the bride-to-be's breeding prospects.

Huh?

If IRC, Catelyn didn't realize they were wearing armor until just before all hell brakes loose.

[Balefont]

Catelyn just doesn't let go - her sense of pride makes it too hard for her to do that. And she's the sort of person who thinks she knows what's best and feels the need to take charge of the situation.

That explains why

1. she refused to accept Jon as a member of Ned's family - c'mon 15 years, give it a rest Lady.

So easy to pass jugement when you have no idea how you yourself would handle the situation. Sure, you hope you'd be the bigger, better person but that's also because of our societal influences as opposed to Westeros.

2. she refuses to leave Bran's bedside to attend to - her other younger son.

Again, sickened with grief and loss, you hope you'd be the bigger, better person yet this behavior is not unheard of by parents of even our society.

3. she ups and travels to KL to advise Ned of the peril, instead of passing on the duty to a courier.

And she provides pretty solid, inarguable reasons for doing so. This is huge news that only a few in Winterfell know or dare share with anyone. If word got into the wrong hands, it would have devastating effects.

4. she decides to kidnap Tyrion on the spur of the moment

I agree it was a rash decision on her part. However, she does this on her way back from meeting with Ned, Varys and Littlefinger and, to the best of her knowledge (and theirs, real or implied), Tyrion was a strong suspect in Bran's attempted murder. Why risk the possibility of him soon being safe behind his sister's skirts?

5. she decides to accompany Robb to war

To advise him. Even if she isn't a military commander or strategist, she does have invaluable information about Rob's lord's bannermen. Plus, he's her firstborn son. As a mother, knowing that your other children are either safe or hostages, it's no wonder she wanted to be by Rob's side rather than sit and worry about him while she's at Winterfell.

6. she inexplicablly decides to trust Jamie the Oathbreaker and help a major enemy combantant leader escape.

I won't defend her setting Jamie free. All I can chalk this up to is a grieving mother's last ditch effort to try and save her children after being told two of them were killed.

7. foolishly demanding a burial for her escort soldiers under impossible circumstances in the Vale - risking everything and also getting pretty angry she couldn't have had HER WAY

She may have "demanded it" initially but she listened to the advise of those that she was with and did not pursue the matter further.

Anyway, arguing with Catelyn's fans is very much like arguing with Catelyn herself.

Thank you.

[David Selig]

Hun?

If IRC, Catelyn didn't realize they were wearing armor until just before all hell brakes loose.

This is correct. When she sensed one of the Freys wearing armour, she immediately realised something is terribly wrong and took actions.

[Ran]

And she doesn't trust Jaime, I should note (AGAIN).

Even the dullard Jaime Lannister is able to figure this out all on his lonesome.

[alguien]

Yes... but GRRM specifically indicated that he was not thinking about that at all. So to hold to your position, alguien, you'll have to believe that for some reason George is unwilling to admit it was a wink or nod... when he's very willing to admit many other winks and nods (the Three Stooges, House Jordayne of the Tor, etc.) he has in the books.

Isn't it easier to just take him at his word? What possible purpose is there for him to outright deny something if he did it? Given that he wasn't being coy about Renly and Loras being lovers at that time?

ETA: Sorry for thread drift, hadn't noticed other posts.

Anyway. Its... an extraordinary coincidence, then. And I have a hard time believing he wasn't aware of it. And, reading your link, that actually makes sense.

Note that he said that the rainbow guard wasn't meant to symbolize Renly's sexuality.

Nowhere did he deny he wasn't aware of what rainbows currently symbolize in the US. This is what I meant by happy coincidence.

Oh, and here's a wiki for another poster who asked about the Three Stooges:

http://awoiaf.wester...ndex.php/Lharys

Finally, I don't think Catelyn is an idiot. I don't agree with many of her decisions from a reader's perspective, but from her perspective, as a mother, she's made clear choices--while being very aware of the potential consequences--in order to preserve the safety of her children.

[Lady of Long Lake]

What book are you reading? It's not the book everyone else is reading.

It's spelled out, in black and white, on the page. Wilful ignorance does not help your argument.

You gotta be kidding me. Isn't that against your own rules/FAQs/TOS?

[Ran]

Why would it be? Sometimes people are willfully ignorant. Sometimes an argument is clearly built on that ignorance, such as ignorance of the text one purports to be discussing. It's a choice one makes, not to look at the material.

There's no foul in calling that out. Don't want to have errors of fact pointed out? Don't make them.

[Drowsey Dragon]

I think OnionAhaiReborn has the right of it. Cat regretted falling apart. I don't think she spared half a thought for Jon Snow. Cat was not a monster of even the worst mother in the story but she was cold hearted and vindictive. Which only made her ultimate fate all the more ironic. I won't say that she cared too much for her own children but IMO she clearly did not care enough for the children of others. I go back again to Ned in Kings Landing...there were three potential pretenders to the thrown but he could not throw them under the wayn because they somebodies children. It got him killed but it was in his character to act as he did. He was too noble for the Game of Thrones. Not so with Cat, she was good at the Game of Thrones up to a point but she did not win. Not yet anyway. And as far as she knows she has lost all. Each of her beloved children was taken from her. She is tragic but she is not good.

You say she was cold hearted. Are you refering to her treatment of Jon? If so, you think it is realistic in that society for her to be warm and loving to her husbands bastard? Your comparison to Ned and how he thought of the Lannister children is irrelevant. None of them were Cats bastard. What indicates that if Cat was in Neds position she would have had the Lannister children killed, instead of trying to have them flee?

How was she vindictive? please give an example.

We can agree that she was a tragic character, but I don't know how you can claim she was not good. She certainly was no Cercei.

[The hairy bear]

I must confess I'm amazed by the versatility of the cat-haters:

• When Catelyn sticks to Bran's bedside she is blamed for not caring enough for her other sons, leaving Robb to rule Winterfell all of his own. When he decides to accompany Robb to council him during the war she is a bad mother for not leaving him alone and making him look weak.
  
• She should have trusted someone else to go to KL to reaval the news of the knife to her husband. But she was wrong in trusting Littlefinger when he accused Tyrion of owning it.
  
• She is cruel because she treats his husband's bastard coldly and not as a member of her family, but she also too soft because she tries to avoid letting unburied the corpses of men that died defending her, at her own peril.
  
• Upon the news of Bran and Rickon's death, Robb reacts marrying Jeyne and Catelyn reacts freeing Jaime. The text of the book explicitly states that the first directly leads to Robb's downfall and murder, while the second is presented as a move with little real strategic value. But still, Catelyn is blamed for Robb's downfall.
  

Catelyn just doesn't let go - her sense of pride makes it too hard for her to do that. And she's the sort of person who thinks she knows what's best and feels the need to take charge of the situation.

It's debatable whether it's sense of "pride", sense of "duty", or even sense of "family". In any case, the above description would fit Tyrion, Dany, Jaime, Stannis, Renly, Tywin,... All of them are proud, have a sense of self-entitlement, and make rash (and often erroneous) decisions. Yet you still single out Catelyn for her faults and call her "idiot". The double standard here is evident.

[Drowsey Dragon]

I must confess I'm amazed by the versatility of the cat-haters:

• When Catelyn sticks to Bran's bedside she is blamed for not caring enough for her other sons, leaving Robb to rule Winerfell all of his own. When he decides to accompany Robb to counsil him during the war she is a bad mother for not leaving him alone and making him look weak.
  
• She should have trusted someone else to go to KL to reaval the news of the knife to her husband. But she was wrong in trusting Littlefinger when he accused Tyrion of owning it.
  
• She is cruel because she treats his husband's bastard coldly and not as a member of her family, but she also too soft because she tries to avoid letting unburied the corpses of men that died defending her, at her own peril.
  
• Upon the news of Bran and Rickon's death, Robb reacts marrying Jeyne and Catelyn reacts freeing Jaime. The text of the book explicitly states that the first directly directs to Robb's downfall and murder, while the second is presented as a move with little real strategic value. But still, Catelyn is blamed for Robb's downfall.
  

It's debatable whether it's sense of "pride", sense of "duty", or even sense of "family". In any case, the above description would fit Tyrion, Dany, Jaime, Stannis, Renly, Tywin,... All of them are proud, have a sense of self-entitlement, and make rash (and often erroneous) decisions. Yet you still single out Catelyn for her faults and call her "idiot". The double standard here is evident.

Agreed. Cat cannot win either way with the haters. She is damned if she does, damned if she doesn't.

[Ygrette]

Uhm.

Okay, I did not know this was a touchy topic, as I am new to the community and still reading SoS.

I just finished the chapter where Catelyn died and nearly cried my eyes out. Not only for Cat, but for her, too.

I am quite delighted that there are people who can voice their arguments a lot better than me(*), so I will be short. I did resent her for looking down at Jon, I did not like some of her decisions, but never did I hate her or think she is an idiot or even an asshole. Quite the contrary, I think within her social limits she has been extraordinarily self-controlled, brave and compassionate and she is among my Top 10 favourite characters. Mind you, this is not based on anything awfully smart, this is just my gut feeling.

Does she do stupid things? Sure she does. All of them do. It makes her human, relateable, an anti-hero. She has weaknesses. All of my favourite characters have done stupid things either for love or in affect or simply because they did not know about things. We know things. They don't. We are sitting comfortably in our chairs while reading those stories.

I can tell you what helps relating to the characters doing silly decisions in the bloody chaos of their painful lives sometimes: listening to the stories while you race down an icy slope with your borderline crazy siberian husky tied to a fragile sled. Listening to ASoIaF while you are sitting at -30°C frost in front of a fire. Listening to the story while mucking out your stable, next to two stubborn horses fighting over a bale of hay.

This may seem absurdly off Topic and I know many of you will resent me for saying that. But it really does put things in perspective. Heck, even having cold feet or being hungry helps. You simply are not the same person when you are suffering, when things are rushing at you, when things knock you off the sled. You become extremely forgiving and understanding.

And so, from a deeply intuitive heart, I really did like Catelyn. Like I also like other unpopular characters. Are they perfect? No way. Are they better than we are? I don't think so. But are WE better? Prove it to me - I don't think so either.

(*) Thanks 1000 times to Ran and The hairy bear among others...

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

You say she was cold hearted. Are you refering to her treatment of Jon? If so, you think it is realistic in that society for her to be warm and loving to her husbands bastard? Your comparison to Ned and how he thought of the Lannister children is irrelevant. None of them were Cats bastard. What indicates that if Cat was in Neds position she would have had the Lannister children killed, instead of trying to have them flee?

How was she vindictive? please give an example.

We can agree that she was a tragic character, but I don't know how you can claim she was not good. She certainly was no Cercei.

I reference Ned in response to excuse that Cat, by virtue of the time and place where she lived and the lack of regard for bastards, is innocent whre Jon Snow is concerned. I pointed out that Ned rose above time and place more than once. Cersei's children were incestuous cuckholds of Ned's King and best friend. He had every excuse to disregard their lives if he had wanted an excuse. But he was a good man. He rises above Westorosi social convention again when he gets Arya a fencing master. Westeros is no excuse for Cat. IMO.

Catelyn's treament of Jon was deplorable, period. I don't expect her to be warm and loving? She isn't. For some reason some people want to pretend like she is. I think that I good person would have been able to manage "civil" or sympathetic. Bran was Jon's little brother. Jon was a good boy. Birth be damned. She has no excuse.

Bran's injury do not excuse Cat either. There is a proverb that says, "Tragic events don't build character, they reveal it." I really believe that this is our introduction to Cat for a reason. This is the "core" Cat.

I stand by what I said, what she becomes is simply what she was, with the outward trappings and courtesies removed.

Cat is brave and fierce and intelligent and proud, but warm and loving and good? I don't see it.

I don't hate Cat, I just don't like her. The people I like are good at heart. Jon, Ned, Dany, Arya, Brienne. Cat doesn't have the inner goodness of any of those characters.

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

And FTR I don't expect anyone to be perfect. I don't wnat cartoon cutouts for characters. i like complex as much as the next reader. Jon is self-pitying, Ned is anive and rigid, Dany is gullible, Arya is rash, Brienne, well Brienne has a lot of problems, but I think they are all good. I think that Cat is on the "good" side but not of good character.

[The GRRumbler]

Well, i guess feeling sad for your son beeing in a coma and problably dying is the ultmost horrible crime on the history of Westeros.

My point is people who feel such hatred towrds Catelyn are often using double standards, biased against her, and considering her mistakes to be a lot worse than the actions comitted by other characters. I don't think there's room for argumentation in threads such as this.

[The GRRumbler]

You are the one presenting false claims here, nobody said she treated him well.

Actually by the standards of Westeros Cat treated Jon quite well.

Well i stand corrected, one person said she treated him weel, out of every single thread in these forums and form the hundreds of comments made, 1 person said that, good for you onion, that completely changes the picture, if one person said that, then EVERYBODY said that.

Doran II, on 14 February 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

But the books imply that she was cold and distant with him, not agressive (except for that scene), there's a difference.

Response:

OnionAhaiReborn, on 13 February 2012 - 05:39 PM, said:

the other textual evidence like: Jon wanting to get the hell out of Winterfell at his first opportunity, Jon saying that the way Catelyn looked at him he felt like she begrudged him every bite of food, Robb clearly being apprehensive about the way Jon's goodbye to Bran may have gone with Catelyn in the room.

So your textual evidence that she treated him agressively is him feeling unconfortable in Winterfell and because shes giving him a sour look?

That's only proof that she treated him coldly, not agressively, that quote you made actually proves my point.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Well, i guess feeling sad for your son beeing in a coma and problably dying is the ultmost horrible crime on the history of Westeros.

My point is people who feel such hatred towrds Catelyn are often using double standards, biased against her, and considering her mistakes to be a lot worse than the actions comitted by other characters. I don't think there's room for argumentation in threads such as this.

If you are interested in having a thoughtful discussion on this issue, it would probably be best if you didn't put words in people's mouths and generalize about the opinions of Catelyn's detractors. I have seen some criticisms of Catelyn that I find unreasonable, and I have pointed them out. I, and others, are trying to make a more subtle point than "OMG cat is an idiot!!" or "she is the most evil person ever.' If you aren't going to be willing to see the difference between the position of disliking Catelyn and thinking she is the most evil person ever to exist in Westeros, we really can't have thoughtful or fair discussion.

Well i stand corrected, one person said she treated him weel, out of every single thread in these forums and form the hundreds of comments made, 1 person said that, good for you onion, that completely changes the picture, if one person said that, then EVERYBODY said that.

The comment I quoted, when last I looked, had two 'likes' on it, and I've seen the argument made before that Catelyn either a) treated him well or B) would have been justified in treating him worse. One person on one single thread, hardly.

But the books imply that she was cold and distant with him, not agressive (except for that scene), there's a difference.

Response:

OnionAhaiReborn, on 13 February 2012 - 05:39 PM, said:

the other textual evidence like: Jon wanting to get the hell out of Winterfell at his first opportunity, Jon saying that the way Catelyn looked at him he felt like she begrudged him every bite of food, Robb clearly being apprehensive about the way Jon's goodbye to Bran may have gone with Catelyn in the room.

So your textual evidence that she treated him agressively is him feeling unconfortable in Winterfell and because shes giving him a sour look?

That's only proof that she treated him coldly, not agressively, that quote you made actually proves my point.

You're right on the point that I can't prove she acted 'aggressively.' I'm inclined to believe that there were probably other moments where she lashed out. But more to the point, I don't think abuse is always aggressive. And I use the evidence from the text to try to show that Jon as well as other characters recognize Catelyn's mistreatment of Jon and have been affected by it.

[The GRRumbler]

If you are interested in having a thoughtful discussion on this issue, it would probably be best if you didn't put words in people's mouths and generalize about the opinions of Catelyn's detractors. I have seen some criticisms of Catelyn that I find unreasonable, and I have pointed them out. I, and others, are trying to make a more subtle point than "OMG cat is an idiot!!" or "she is the most evil person ever.' If you aren't going to be willing to see the difference between the position of disliking Catelyn and thinking she is the most evil person ever to exist in Westeros, we really can't have thoughtful or fair discussion.

Well, thats exactly what you've been doing in this thread, feel free to disagree with me, it won't make your opnions less biased against the character.

The comment I quoted, when last I looked, had two 'likes' on it, and I've seen the argument made before that Catelyn either a) treated him well or B) would have been justified in treating him worse. One person on one single thread, hardly.

Yeah, so now we're gonna rank the comments by the amounts of like it has. You know what, we can do even better lets just supend/ban users that failed to reach the "likes" quota of the month.

You're right on the point that I can't prove she acted 'aggressively.' I'm inclined to believe that there were probably other moments where she lashed out. But more to the point, I don't think abuse is always aggressive. And I use the evidence from the text to try to show that Jon as well as other characters recognize Catelyn's mistreatment of Jon and have been affected by it.

First of all, from what we saw in the books that was the only one, saying it wasn't is pure speculation, because we didn't saw any other one in the books. Second, and more important, the Autor himself said it was the only one, and to me that closes the case.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

@ Doran II

You're just not being fair to me or my arguments if you are going to tell me I am making points that I have not only not made, but actively rejected. Since it's obvious that I will not be getting a fair hearing-out of what I have to say and instead will be told by you what my opinions are so you can strike them down, I'm going to be done with this conversation.