Catelyn is an idiot

[lyvyathan]

Yes... but GRRM specifically indicated that he was not thinking about that at all. So to hold to your position, alguien, you'll have to believe that for some reason George is unwilling to admit it was a wink or nod... when he's very willing to admit many other winks and nods (the Three Stooges, House Jordayne of the Tor, etc.) he has in the books.

Isn't it easier to just take him at his word? What possible purpose is there for him to outright deny something if he did it? Given that he wasn't being coy about Renly and Loras being lovers at that time?

Because writers lie or their memory confuses them or they wish to hide glaring mistakes. I like GRRM's works - but I don't worship him or have to take his word as gospel true.

Consider another writer - in this case another George - George Lucas - who now claims that when he wrote the Star Wars story, Greedo shot first.

http://www.escapistm...ways-Shot-First

Of course we should still consider what the writer claims his intentions were - and weight up its merits. But I feel no obligation to treat the writer's word as gospel truth, I'd respect it. But respecting and accepting it 100% are quite different things.

[The GRRumbler]

But Catelyn Stark is no ordinary person, she's not common folk. She's a noblewoman - of House Stark and House Tully. What she does, every action she makes has reprecussions.

She's also an adult and she should have known better.

In this series we have several highborne people that make a lot of worse stuff, with a lot worse consequences than what she did, i don't see several "Jaime was an idiot" or "Theon was an idiot" or "Renly was an idiot" or "Robb was an idiot" chapters around here.

Based on her actions in this series she gets a lot more hate than most of the other characters and is judged a lot more harshly, and more often than not such judgement comes with a lot of sexism, just like the "The woman should be back taking care of her children instead of getting involved in war and politics" though not exactly with these words but is very frequent in such threads.

[lyvyathan]

The Warrior's Sons, we now know, are all closeted gay men -- they, too, wear rainbow cloaks. :P

I could concieve Robert, Stannis, or Ned wearing a rainbow cloak, if it fit their heraldry.

Sorry, I simply haven't sublimated the idea that rainbows "equal" gay. Rainbows are rainbows, a lovely natural phenomena, the subject of heraldry historically (the heraldic rainbow has 4 colors, BTW; the LGBT rainbow has 6; Martin's rainbow has 7, which is what we commonly see and which is why it recommended itself to him as a symbol of the Seven), quite a lot of art and use and depiction in contexts outside of LGBT rights (in fact, a search for "Rainbow" doesn't yield a single LGBT-related event, group, or other reference in at least the first five pages of a Google search -- you find companies named Rainbow Cleaning Systems as an example [near and dear to my heart -- my father used to sell their vacuum cleaners door-to-door to make extra money when I was young, as a soldier's wages weren't quite stretching far enough]).

Give it a rest already.

And did you know that when your dad was young - the word "gay" did not have any homosexual overtones?

The US 42nd Division serving in WW1 - was called the Rainbow Division - and used that term with pride.

[lyvyathan]

In this series we have several highborne people that make a lot of worse stuff, with a lot worse consequences than what she did, i don't see several "Jaime was an idiot" or "Theon was an idiot" or "Renly was an idiot" or "Robb was an idiot" chapters around here.

Really? I thought it was pretty obvious they were idiots or did very foolish things.

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

I am not sure what I am wading into here, this is apparently an old argument and I am a new comer.

Let me state up front, I hate Catelyn. I think she is cold, selfish, the reverse of Cersei's ruthlessness coin (The consequences of Cat's choices inidicate to me that you wields power (and chooses who to trust) no better Cersei, but that is not why I hate her).

I can't get over the Jon Snow thing. I would not expect Cat to love the infant Jon Snow, he was Ned's bastard and a rival to her own son. But the fact that could not respect and value the obedient dutiful boy who grew up in her home and who was her son Robb's best friend, that she could not share the grief over Bran with Jon or at the very lesast pass up the opportunity to get in a nasty dig at Jon beside Bran's sickbed, reveals a stone cold heart.

Un-Cat is just Cat with courtesy and social convention removed. IMHO.

[Ran]

lyvvathan,

I've already noted elsewhere that GRRM's claim that Westeros is the size of South America is mistaken on his part. Same as when GRRM hemmed and hawwed on whether the Wall was an accurate scale, another -- so don't try to lay the "gospel" notion on me.

The onus is on the person claiming that the writer is lying to find proof of it. You guys want to say George is lying about this, when he admits so many other references? Prove it. We can see that Lucas is lying because his shooting scripts are out there and they clearly laid out his original intent. That's proof. Find the equivalent for this business of the Rainbow Guard

And did you know that when your dad was young - the word "gay" did not have any homosexual overtones?

And? He wasn't selling Rainbow vacuum cleaners in 1960, if that's what you're thinking.

The University of Hawaii basketball team are still the Rainbow Warriors, and athletes are about as macho a bunch of guys as you'll come across.

Imp,

that she could not share the grief over Bran with Jon or at the very lesast pass up the opportunity to get in a nasty dig at Jon beside Bran's sickbed, reveals a stone cold heart.

No. It reveals a person in a deep, black depression, who's in such agony that she cannot sleep, barely eats for days, looks like she's aged twenty years. It's reveals a person who, when she finally snaps out of it, looks back at the hazy memory of how she acted over that time, and feels shame:

When she opened them again, they told her that she had slept four days. Catelyn nodded and sat up in bed. It all seemed like a nightmare to her now, everything since Bran's fall, a terrible dream of blood and grief, but she had the pain in her hands to remind her that it was real. She felt weak and light-headed, yet strangely resolute, as if a great weight had lifted from her.

Catelyn remembered the way she had been before, and she was ashamed.

[mor2]

On topic of the rainbow guard, I have recently discovered that each member is wearing a cloak of different color of the rainbow, not rainbow cloaks... so I no longer think that they are clowns, though I still consider their rainbow COA among the ugliest COA.

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

What was Catelyn ashamed of exactly? I do not know how to do the quote thing. Is it just quotes? She may have had regrets but I do not remember her ever relenting in her disdain and disregard for Jon Snow.

[mor2]

As far as everyone knew Jon is a proof of Ned's infidelity, I dont think that many people will welcome the child of their husband mistress, so I cant really blame her. As for why people feel very strongly about her actions toward Jon, for this you can only blame GRRM, after all a good story is one in which the reader can recognize his felling and emotions and identify with the charters, it's no wonder that some people feel very passionate about various characters and has different outlook on things.

p.s. to use quote click on the quote button on the relevant post.

[Lady of Long Lake]

:agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree:

It was NOT JON'S FAULT. He didn't tell his dad Ned to bring him to Winterfell, and we don't KNOW that he could have been raised anywhere else, that's just speculation. Catelyn tells Jon that she wishes HE HAD BEEN THROWN OFF THE ROOF, and he was so used to her treating him this way that he didn't even reply or weep or tell Robb. (And Robb has clearly seen her behave this way, since he says, "My mother..." the minute he sees that Jon is upset.)

Agree with you as vehemently as you agree with Ivy:) Martin tries to soften Caitlyn's history when he said in an interview that her abusive treatment of Jon was an isolated occasion. If it was isolated, why did Robb say to the upset Jon, " My Mother.....? " and Jon replied," She was......very kind". Robb looked relieved. "Good" he says and smiles.

Martin says about Caitlyn and how she treated Jon,"

"Mistreatment" is a loaded word. Did Catelyn beat Jon bloody? No. Did she distance herself from him? Yes. Did she verbally abuse and attack him? No. (The instance in Bran's bedroom was obviously a very special case)

I say "Baloney" to that. For Robb to wonder what his Mother had done to make Jon upset shows me that there was probably several of those "special cases" where she was mean to him. Unless Robb had ESP that day and he had a vision of the "One And Only Time" she treated Jon badly? /rollseyes

[Ran]

or Robb to wonder what his Mother had done to make Jon upset shows me that there was probably several of those "special cases" where she was mean to him.

What book are you reading? It's not the book everyone else is reading.

Robb was in the middle of it, shouting commands with the best of them. He seemed to have grown of late, as if Bran's fall and his mother's collapse

Robb knows his mother is not herself. Everyone in Winterfell knows she has had a breakdown. That she is, in a sense, out of her mind with grief. That she is acting in an uncharacteristic way, and is liable to do uncharacteristic things.

It's spelled out, in black and white, on the page. Wilful ignorance does not help your argument.

Go back a little earlier, and you'll see in that very scene that Catelyn did something else that Jon himself says she has never done before.

[Phat Walda]

What's with all the Cat bashing? There are so many characters that are idiotic, treacherous or evil to hate on, yet when I joined these forums it seemed like Catelyn was public enemy number one.

I'm not saying she's perfect or I love her, but one anti-Cat thread is enough, no? Not hundreds.

Also, it's ridiculous to say the war of the 5 kings was her fault. It's not any one person's fault. Except maybe Littlefinger.

Man, I don't know about you, but I see a lot more threads bashing Cersei, Dany, and even Tyrion than Cat.

[Phat Walda]

Go back a little earlier, and you'll see in that very scene that Catelyn did something else that Jon himself says she has never done before.

I think willful ignorance is kind of offensive. The only thing I recall Jon thinking she had never done before was call him by his NAME, which to me, hints even more that she was emotionally abusive.

[Phat Walda]

No. It reveals a person in a deep, black depression, who's in such agony that she cannot sleep, barely eats for days, looks like she's aged twenty years. It's reveals a person who, when she finally snaps out of it, looks back at the hazy memory of how she acted over that time, and feels shame:

We're obviously not going to agree, but it seems pretty clear to me that she's been unkind to him his entire life (thus his willingness to enter the Nightswatch and be celibate, live in freezing temperatures, and give up everything he knows). If Robb immediately jumps to the conclusion that his mother said something offensive when he sees Jon's face, and if Ned calls Catelyn "damnably cruel" when she refuses to let Jon stay at Winterfell when Ned is gone, I think there is a pretty clear pattern.

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

p.s. to use quote click on the quote button on the relevant post.

Thanks.

I appreciate the complexity of hte characters. That is part of why I think this is a gereat series. My friends who finished the series before I did, suggested that i would soften towards Cersei once I read her POV's. I "know" her better, I "like" her no better.

I have read lots of post today talking about Cat bashing, I think that is funny because I never saw that before today. I knew I could not be the only Cat hater, but I never saw the threads before. This is actually probably wrong thread for me because I don't think Cat was an idiot, her plans and insights paid off about "par for Martin" characters. Ned is arguably dumber, I just don't like Cat. I think she is selfish, willful, cocksure, and very Cersei-ful.

As far as Jon being a symbol of Ned's infidelity, I totally get that. But the boy was in the household for the next 13 years, I am thinking that you are "supposed" to be won over by the sinning ways of the child over time. You are supposed to be "charmed" by Snow White. Unless of course you actually are "The Wicked Step-Mother."

[David Selig]

I say "Baloney" to that. For Robb to wonder what his Mother had done to make Jon upset shows me that there was probably several of those "special cases" where she was mean to him. Unless Robb had ESP that day and he had a vision of the "One And Only Time" she treated Jon badly? /rollseyes

Or maybe Robb know that his mother hasn't slept for days, was deeply distressed, and was lashing out at everyone who disturbed her watch, like we saw happening to Maester Luwyn later on. That fits much better with what Martin said.

I think willful ignorance is kind of offensive. The only thing I recall Jon thinking she had never done before was call him by his NAME, which to me, hints even more that she was emotionally abusive.

"Jon had never seen her cry before."

As far as Jon being a symbol of Ned's infidelity, I totally get that. But the boy was in the household for the next 13 years, I am thinking that you are "supposed" to be won over by the sinning ways of the child over time. You are supposed to be "charmed" by Snow White. Unless of course you actually are "The Wicked Step-Mother."

Thankfully ASOIF is not a simple fairy tale where everything is black and white, it's much more complex and realistic, and people can have minor flaws without becoming wicked stepmothers.

[Phat Walda]

"Jon had never seen her cry before."

Okay wait, you're saying that just because she had never cried in front of him before this somehow proves that she wasn't emotionally abusive before, either? Maybe she never said anything QUITE as harsh before, but it seems clear that he's used to this treatment in one form or another, since he doesn't protest, cry, or even seem that angry or surprised, and he doesn't tell Robb about it.

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

Thankfully ASOIF is not a simple fairy tale where everything is black and white, it's much more complex and realistic, and people can have minor flaws without becoming wicked stepmothers.

Agreed. I love it that the characters are flawed and layered. I think that many people in real life are complex without being cruel to children. I also think that the true measure of people is how they treat those weaker than they are. My opinion of Catelyn started of low and never really went up. When Stoneheart appeared I thought , "Yeah well what do you expect." I think she is heartless and not a "good guy." She seems to love her children and is not afraid of her enemies, but like Cersei there is something unhealthy and vindictive about her. Too much self-centered pride.

[David Selig]

Okay wait, you're saying that just because she had never cried in front of him before this somehow proves that she wasn't emotionally abusive before, either? Maybe she never said anything QUITE as harsh before, but it seems clear that he's used to this treatment in one form or another, since he doesn't protest, cry, or even seem that angry or surprised, and he doesn't tell Robb about it.

What Ran is saying and I tried to clarify further is that during the whole scene Martin really drives home the point that this was an unique situation and a Catelyn's behaviour is completely at odds with how she usually behaves. That's it. Yet even after Martin confirmed that when asked, so many people still ignore that and act as if Cat went out of her way to make Jon's life hell all the time.

[Phat Walda]

What Ran is saying and I tried to clarify further is that during the whole scene Martin really drives home the point that this was an unique situation and a Catelyn's behaviour is completely at odds with how she usually behaves. That's it. Yet even after martin said it confirmed that straight out when asked, so many people still ignore that and act as if Cat went out of her way to make Jon's life hell all the time.

I don't go around reading interviews really, so I wouldn't say I'm ignoring it so much as I didn't know about it. IMO, if the author didn't make it obvious enough in the text that he has to explain himself later and defend a character, he didn't do a very good job and people have a right to their original opinion.