Sandor Clegane v. 9

[Candor]

Sandor is emotionally about 14. It is known. He does not know how to express himself around girls. This is why he swings from leering creepily to angrily berating to being oddly gentle.

Poor boy.

And yet, I adore him. ^_^

Oh man, I want to see this so bad. Also, I hope the budding SanSan relationship won't be too weird for the actors (Rory is literally old enough to be Sophie's father), especially the infamous "kiss" scene during BW.

It'll be very interesting, this is known. Though I'm sure it will all work out. Somehow I don't see them filming that kiss until Season 3 when Sansa's character starts to mis-remember it, you know. That's what I bet.

[Zmeischa]

We don't know what Sandor said in his confession to the Elder Brother, but I'd bet quite a lot that Sansa Stark featured largely in it.

I think not. Because Elder Brother litearlly said: He did not love, nor was he loved himself.

When I first read it, I had to stop and say: "What?!!"

And then I thought about it and it all made sense. That is so typically Sandor. He shows his faults, his rage, his hate, he does it so much that he sort of hides behind that ugly image. But his feelings for Sansa is something that he keeps to himself, even when he is almost dying. And that is who he really is.

[I'dsingforyou]

It'll be very interesting, this is known. Though I'm sure it will all work out. Somehow I don't see them filming that kiss until Season 3 when Sansa's character starts to mis-remember it, you know. That's what I bet.

I think it's more powerful when Sansa touches his face and realises he is crying and it's a moment where they are both shocked somewhat by the tenderness of each other so I think they will focus on that. It would be more accepted if the scene was emotional and tender rather then sexual in manner.

[brashcandy]

I think not. Because Elder Brother litearlly said: He did not love, nor was he loved himself.

When I first read it, I had to stop and say: "What?!!"

And then I thought about it and it all made sense. That is so typically Sandor. He shows his faults, his rage, his hate, he does it so much that he sort of hides behind that ugly image. But his feelings for Sansa is something that he keeps to himself, even when he is almost dying. And that is who he really is.

Ah, this is a contentious one. :) I happen to agree with you, btw, because I think after his experiences with Sansa it just isn't true. Even if it wasn't technically love (which on his part at least I would argue it was), the EB's statement still sounds as though the man was completely bereft of affections.

[Sandorella]

Hi everyone!

I’m new to this forum, but have greatly enjoyed reading all your comments about the ever-fascinating Sandor Clegane. Full disclosure: I had never heard of ASOIAF until recently, when I randomly picked up a copy of AGOT at the airport when my flight was delayed. You won’t be surprised to learn that I became instantly hooked and read the first five books back to back. I became a Sandor fan pretty early on, but it took me a while to realize it. I love the way he starts out as a boiler-plate baddie, but then subtly evolves into one of the most complex characters of the whole series. (The scene in Sansa’s room after the BW is my favorite in the whole series) I avoided all spoilers while I was reading, so I thought I was alone in my interpretation, and when I found this thread I was shocked and delighted to see that I was not alone. Long live the Sisterhood!

I have sooooooo many Sandor-related comments/questions, but I’ll start out with just two:

1) I’ve seen GRRM’s comments regarding Sansa’s mismemory and the general relationship between the Clegane brothers, but can anyone point me in the direction of other comments he’s made about our favorite Hound?

2) It’s well-established that while Sandor knew about and witnessed Sansa’s abuse by the Kingsguard on Joffrey’s orders, he never actually hit her himself. However, I can’t remember if this is because Joffrey never asked him to hit her, or if he did ask and Sandor refused. If this is not made explicit in the text, then which scenario do you think is more likely, and what does it say about Joffrey and Sandor’s dynamic?

Personally, I think it’s unlikely that Sandor refused Joffrey’s command. He may have been able to snark his way out of one or two beatings, but it seems out of character for him to repeatedly refuse a direct command from Joffrey at that point in the story (considering how often Sansa was beaten, I’m assuming Joffrey would have asked him to hit her quite frequently). Also, even though Joffrey is hardly the sharpest arrow in the quiver, especially with regards to the subtle behaviors of those he considers beneath him, I expect that even he would become suspicious of Sandor’s continual refusal to hit Sansa, and I believe that if Joffrey had even the slightest inkling that Sandor felt any sort of compassion/pity/attraction for Sansa, there would be severe consequences for both Sandor and Sansa.

So if, on the other hand, Joffrey did NOT ask Sandor to hit Sansa, why not? Why was he exempt from this task?

I’m not sure why I’m hung up on this detail, but I figured that this would be the perfect place to dissect it. :)

[LittleDragon]

I think not. Because Elder Brother litearlly said: He did not love, nor was he loved himself.

When I first read it, I had to stop and say: "What?!!"

And then I thought about it and it all made sense. That is so typically Sandor. He shows his faults, his rage, his hate, he does it so much that he sort of hides behind that ugly image. But his feelings for Sansa is something that he keeps to himself, even when he is almost dying. And that is who he really is.

I think EB has right, because what Sandor feels is more probaly desire and not love. Same with Sansa. Love is a deep feeling, and they didn't spent enough time with each other, and with deep conversation to develop love. Sandor considered Sansa for a long while to be a child, not as a woman. Sansa was afraid from Sandor for a good while. It was a long way for both of them to recognize each other as Man and Woman, and then it was over, suddenly they have found themselves too far from each other. Sandor didn't like Sansa for the first time, found her too childish, and too stupid. Sansa was constantly afraid of him, not even beared to see his face. It turned very slowly to the recognition to hey, this is not a child any more, but a nice woman, and hey, he is maybe not the most goodlooking man in Westeros, but someone I like, and both of them had a period when they felt pity to the other - Sansa felt pity for him being burned, and Sandor felt pity for Sansa being beaten. Now, they have recognized each other, they have some feelings, but I don't think it's love. So elder Brother has right. My interpretetion, that now they are at a stage like after the first dating: potential mates just recognized that the other could be the ideal one, but would need a second date to start to have feelings, and a bit more time to develop real, deep love. They didn't have time for that. The BWB was just the first stage, the first so-called date, now they start to recognize each other and their own feelings, but they are far from love. sorry, but try to be realistic as GRRM is: at this stage Sandor only wished her fucking bloody, as he told it to Arya.

[den_lange_sommer_31]

Hi everyone!

I’m new to this forum, but have greatly enjoyed reading all your comments about the ever-fascinating Sandor Clegane. Full disclosure: I had never heard of ASOIAF until recently, when I randomly picked up a copy of AGOT at the airport when my flight was delayed. You won’t be surprised to learn that I became instantly hooked and read the first five books back to back. I became a Sandor fan pretty early on, but it took me a while to realize it. I love the way he starts out as a boiler-plate baddie, but then subtly evolves into one of the most complex characters of the whole series. (The scene in Sansa’s room after the BW is my favorite in the whole series) I avoided all spoilers while I was reading, so I thought I was alone in my interpretation, and when I found this thread I was shocked and delighted to see that I was not alone. Long live the Sisterhood!

I have sooooooo many Sandor-related comments/questions, but I’ll start out with just two:

1) I’ve seen GRRM’s comments regarding Sansa’s mismemory and the general relationship between the Clegane brothers, but can anyone point me in the direction of other comments he’s made about our favorite Hound?

2) It’s well-established that while Sandor knew about and witnessed Sansa’s abuse by the Kingsguard on Joffrey’s orders, he never actually hit her himself. However, I can’t remember if this is because Joffrey never asked him to hit her, or if he did ask and Sandor refused. If this is not made explicit in the text, then which scenario do you think is more likely, and what does it say about Joffrey and Sandor’s dynamic?

Personally, I think it’s unlikely that Sandor refused Joffrey’s command. He may have been able to snark his way out of one or two beatings, but it seems out of character for him to repeatedly refuse a direct command from Joffrey at that point in the story (considering how often Sansa was beaten, I’m assuming Joffrey would have asked him to hit her quite frequently). Also, even though Joffrey is hardly the sharpest arrow in the quiver, especially with regards to the subtle behaviors of those he considers beneath him, I expect that even he would become suspicious of Sandor’s continual refusal to hit Sansa, and I believe that if Joffrey had even the slightest inkling that Sandor felt any sort of compassion/pity/attraction for Sansa, there would be severe consequences for both Sandor and Sansa.

So if, on the other hand, Joffrey did NOT ask Sandor to hit Sansa, why not? Why was he exempt from this task?

I’m not sure why I’m hung up on this detail, but I figured that this would be the perfect place to dissect it. :)

Hi and Welcome ^_^

To answer your first question, i myself am new to the series and have been digging around to find any GRRM's comments on the SanxSan relationship and the only conclusion i have read is that he says its "one that is complicated" so i hope someone can give us some highlights on other things he has mentioned.

2) It's never mentioned in the books why Sandor wouldn't hit Sansa, as far as i know and i don't believe Joffery ever asked him to do so (In her POV's). If we assume Sandor told Joffery he would not partake in beating Sansa, would there have been any repercussions for his refusal? I that is a hard question to answer because we don't see their interactions from Joffery's POV... I think there might of been one instance where Cersei comments on their relationship. (Correct me if i am wrong though,) she says that Joffery respects the hound, who has been more of a father figure than Robert (Somewhere along those lines). So if the hound made up some stupid excuse as to why he wouldn't beat Sansa i think Joffery would just make a quip about the other "knights" and move on.

It kind of reminds me of his name day when Sansa lies about slaying someone and the bad luck it will bring, Sandor agree's with her and backs up her story. Joffery than drops the subject. So i don't know, i wish we did have a POV on Joffery's case only to have more of Sandor in the first and second books.

[headtrip_honey]

Joffrey did ask him to hit her, once, but Dontos shoved in and said "No, let me do it!" and proceeded to hit her with a melon. Likely Dontos thought he was saving her from the most savage KG member.

Unfortunately, Joff was Not Amused, and Sansa's beating only got worse, although not at Sandor's hands. Joff has Boros Blount and Meryn Trant beat her savagely, with the Hound even crying out, "Enough," but Joff decides to strip her instead.

It isn't until Tyrion comes in that the madness stops.

We may never know what would have happened had the Hound outright refused Joff's order.

[Ednawolf]

2) It’s well-established that while Sandor knew about and witnessed Sansa’s abuse by the Kingsguard on Joffrey’s orders, he never actually hit her himself. However, I can’t remember if this is because Joffrey never asked him to hit her, or if he did ask and Sandor refused. If this is not made explicit in the text, then which scenario do you think is more likely, and what does it say about Joffrey and Sandor’s dynamic?

Joffrey orders Sandor to hit Sansa in the scene where he has her stripped in front of court. Sandor neither obeys nor refutes Joffrey's request because Ser Dontos steps in.... then Joffrey later has Sansa stripped and asks Boros to hit her and at that point, Sandor says "Enough." And then Tyrion steps in and saves her and the Hound gives her his cloak to cover up.

[Ednawolf]

Joffrey did ask him to hit her, once, but Dontos shoved in and said "No, let me do it!" and proceeded to hit her with a melon. Likely Dontos thought he was saving her from the most savage KG member.

Unfortunately, Joff was Not Amused, and Sansa's beating only got worse, although not at Sandor's hands. Joff has Boros Blount and Meryn Trant beat her savagely, with the Hound even crying out, "Enough," but Joff decides to strip her instead.

It isn't until Tyrion comes in that the madness stops.

We may never know what would have happened had the Hound outright refused Joff's order.

I felt like I was holding my breath when reading that scene for the first time. It will be interesting to see how the actors portray this scene on screen... it's going to be very intense I imagine!

[Ednawolf]

I think EB has right, because what Sandor feels is more probaly desire and not love. Same with Sansa. Love is a deep feeling, and they didn't spent enough time with each other, and with deep conversation to develop love. Sandor considered Sansa for a long while to be a child, not as a woman. Sansa was afraid from Sandor for a good while. It was a long way for both of them to recognize each other as Man and Woman, and then it was over, suddenly they have found themselves too far from each other. Sandor didn't like Sansa for the first time, found her too childish, and too stupid. Sansa was constantly afraid of him, not even beared to see his face. It turned very slowly to the recognition to hey, this is not a child any more, but a nice woman, and hey, he is maybe not the most goodlooking man in Westeros, but someone I like, and both of them had a period when they felt pity to the other - Sansa felt pity for him being burned, and Sandor felt pity for Sansa being beaten. Now, they have recognized each other, they have some feelings, but I don't think it's love. So elder Brother has right. My interpretetion, that now they are at a stage like after the first dating: potential mates just recognized that the other could be the ideal one, but would need a second date to start to have feelings, and a bit more time to develop real, deep love. They didn't have time for that. The BWB was just the first stage, the first so-called date, now they start to recognize each other and their own feelings, but they are far from love. sorry, but try to be realistic as GRRM is: at this stage Sandor only wished her fucking bloody, as he told it to Arya.

I don't think that he does feel desire at this point... I'm sure he recognizes that she's desireable, but he also recognizes that she's still a girl. I think what he feels for her is affection and protectiveness. Maybe not "true love" just yet... His rape comments were clearly made for Arya's benefit so that she would kill him.

[den_lange_sommer_31]

i totally forgot he was the one asked to start the beating, i only remembered him saying "Enough"

[Ednawolf]

He did not love, nor was he loved himself.

The Elder Brother is incorrect. I love him. I love him, and I know you all love him too.

[Candor]

I think it's more powerful when Sansa touches his face and realises he is crying and it's a moment where they are both shocked somewhat by the tenderness of each other so I think they will focus on that. It would be more accepted if the scene was emotional and tender rather then sexual in manner.

Definitely! Either way, I know I'm really looking forward to seeing it. It's going to be a tense, emotional moment, and I adore moments like that!

[Candor]

Joffrey did ask him to hit her, once, but Dontos shoved in and said "No, let me do it!" and proceeded to hit her with a melon. Likely Dontos thought he was saving her from the most savage KG member.

Unfortunately, Joff was Not Amused, and Sansa's beating only got worse, although not at Sandor's hands. Joff has Boros Blount and Meryn Trant beat her savagely, with the Hound even crying out, "Enough," but Joff decides to strip her instead.

It isn't until Tyrion comes in that the madness stops.

We may never know what would have happened had the Hound outright refused Joff's order.

Oh Joffrey, your uncle cannot bitchslap you enough to cure whatever you've got. -_-

I am on the fence about it. I can see him just being "fine, whatever, I'll get one of these other fools to do it." BUUUUUT, Joffrey is a bastard, who loves having power over people, loves exploiting what he finds or thinks is their weakness, I can more see it going really badly, and him forcing some action on that front. Kid's a sadist. 0_0

[den_lange_sommer_31]

Just seen some really cool set photos of the filming of the "riot", None of Sophie but quite a few of Rory..

For those who haven't seen them you can find them here. http://www.westeros....rovnik_Filming/

Weren't they on horseback when the riot started? judging by the photo's they won't be, so i guess Sandor won't be losing that horse of his.

[FacelessGirl]

Just seen some really cool set photos of the filming of the "riot", None of Sophie but quite a few of Rory..

For those who haven't seen them you can find them here. http://www.westeros....rovnik_Filming/

Weren't they on horseback when the riot started? judging by the photo's they won't be, so i guess Sandor won't be losing that horse of his.

I remember hearing that having horses for the scene was too expensive, and that Sophie is allergic to them. Honestly I'd love to see him carry her bridal style then swing on to her horse. ;)

[den_lange_sommer_31]

At least we know he will be saving her one way or another, (In one of the pictures you can see a severed arm).. Spring of 2012 has never seemed so far away!

I loved the poo on Joffery pic.. I may have drawn attention to myself awkwardly from the laughing it stirred up.

[Hound's She-wolf]

Soooo, I haven't seen any pics of Sophie in the riot, has anyone seen any pictures of her associated with the riot? I'm now starting to worry that she's not in the riot shot. I will be very incensed. Not just a little, but a whole flaming lot incensed.

[den_lange_sommer_31]

I just found a 8:42 video of the filming, Sophie was there, and the person who shot the video actually took a picture with her. So its safe to say Sansa was present.

He also has a blurry shot of Rory eating ice cream in costume, its kind of adorable.