Spoiler -> UnCat = good or evil?

[birdsong66]

That's their way of war: throughout we have seen hostages exchanged while the fighting continued. Robb Stark waged war against Lannisters too, did he write his sisters off ? Pray tell me.

True enough. Except a hostage "exchange" went out the window once Edmure, Lord of Riverrun, named Jaime an "escaped prisoner," and Karstark placed a monetary price on his head. Again, not even Catelyn thought the three would make it to KL alive, thus, the assumption of a dual impending beheading for her daughters was a natural conclusion.

No, Robb didn't write his sister's off, but again, with an "exchange" all parties, it is assumed, will retain their heads, both prior and post exchange.

[brashcandy]

Love this, brashcandy.

I'm re-reading/listening AGoT, and just came across the bit when Catelyn first arrives at KL and meets LF for the first time in ages (14 years or something?), and this is what she thinks when Varys enters the room:

“Maester Luwin is doing all that can be done for Bran,” she told him. She would not speak of Bran, not here, not with these men. She trusted Littlefinger only a little, and Varys not at all. She would not let them see her grief. “Lord Baelish tells me that I have you to thank for bringing me here.”

So, she knows, or has some notion that LF is not to be trusted. And still, later she at least acts as if she trusted him. Doesn't she?

Indeed. Her actions lack very little rhyme or reason: Realise that LF is suspect, but then on the other hand trust him to such an extent that you arrest one of the members of the leading houses in the realm on his say-so. Then go on and on about the dangerous, untrustworthy Lannisters, but of course, release the most notoriously fickle/untrustworthy of them all in some last desperate attempt to get your daughters back. One can pity and understand Cat, but that doesn't entail being blind to her blunders.

[Tini]

She certainly knows the Lannisters kept Ice when they sent Ned's bones home, so it would only be logical to assume this is Ice reforged. As mentioned, it is not like Valyrian steel is lying around the streambeds.

But it is also mentioned that Oathkeeper' steel has black and red ripples, and doesn't look like Valyrian steel. It therefore looked especially not like Ice, not in form, not in material. That would be reason enough to doubt that Oathkeeper was made from Ice, at least for someone who knew what Ice looked like.

except LF is no king nor acting as anything else than himself. How is it to be translated for LF? "I know the man, but I don't know the man"? Deep.

It translates as: "I knew the boy, but I don't know the man he's grown into."

She didn't know the woman her sister had become, either.

[birdsong66]

It translates as: "I knew the boy, but I don't know the man he's grown into."

She didn't know the woman her sister had become, either.

Or, it would seem, who the man's been into

Or, the Tansy.

Or the extent of LF's pathology, "Only Cat."

Or what a wedding night between the two would sound like. Howling good fun. :)

[David Selig]

Here we go again...

Varys, the guy with the reputation for knowing everything, who had just confirmed it by to Cat with his knowledge of why she and Rodrick were, was right there when LF claimed the dagger is Tyrion's, and didn't object, which is pretty significant. Add to that Lysa's letter and it's plenty of evidence by medieval standards, in the days before forensic science labs.

[brashcandy]

Here we go again...

Varys, the guy with the reputation for knowing everything, who had just confirmed it by to Cat with his knowledge of why she and Rodrick were, was right there when LF claimed the dagger is Tyrion's, and didn't object, which is pretty significant. Add to that Lysa's letter and it's plenty of evidence by medieval standards, in the days before forensic science labs.

Convincing evidence or not, arresting Tyrion was madness. Even if Cat knew Tyrion was guilty as sin, she could have waited. As it was, she wasn't even going to arrest him until she felt cornered by him seeing her. My point has always been that there were other ways to get around that awkward moment, and to mitigate the problems from being spotted, than arresting Tyrion. That just took an unfortunate occurrence and turned it into an all out catastrophic event for everyone concerned -right down to the poor inkeeper.

[Alexia]

Interestingly enough, not one single character on the Stark side calls Tyrion's arrest "madness." In fact, they are very upset that she's lost him, not that she arrested him.

Losing him was madness, not his arrest. He would have been a very valuable hostage -- especially if they had gotten Jaime too shortly thereafter. It is only the reader who calls Tyrion's arrest "madness," because the reader likes Tyrion and is aware that he didn't personally order the hit on Bran. What the reader frequently neglects to remember is that Tyrion is a material witness, if not the guilty party himself, and knew very well that Jaime and Cersei were involved with Bran's supposed fall, even teasing them about it.

With the information that Catelyn had, I would have arrested Tyrion too. With the information that I have, I would still have arrested him, I just wouldn't have headed for the Vale.

[brashcandy]

A very valuable hostage? Yes, like her girls were back in KL under the very Lannister regime. Readers don't call it madness because we like Tyrion or know that he was innocent - we call it madness because even if he was guilty, it was simply too risky to arrest him, without having other plans and variables in place. Taking him to the Vale wasn't a bad idea, arresting him in the first place was. It's the same thing with Ned. It was madness to tell Cersei because it gave her a chance to plot and scheme to bring him down, just like Cat's arrest of Tyrion gave Tywin the go ahead to set fire to and pillage the Riverlands.

[HouseofStark]

What the reader frequently neglects to remember is that Tyrion is a material witness, if not the guilty party himself, and knew very well that Jaime and Cersei were involved with Bran's supposed fall, even teasing them about it.

i'm trying to recall the events of the first book, and i'm not sure that at the time that catelyn has tyrion forcibly captured that tyrion is aware of any wrong doing of his siblings. it's only after he's arrested that he puts the pieces together and after that, only when he sees cercei again in KL that he questions her about the events surrounding Bran's fall.

[Alexia]

If it is madness, then why don't any other characters in the book call it madness? Roose Bolton is excited about it. IIRC, there was a collection of groans when they heard she lost him.

Name one Stark loyalist who calls it madness, and I'll change my mind. I eagerly await the quote.

[Alexia]

i'm trying to recall the events of the first book, and i'm not sure that at the time that catelyn has tyrion forcibly captured that tyrion is aware of any wrong doing of his siblings. it's only after he's arrested that he puts the pieces together and after that, only when he sees cercei again in KL that he questions her about the events surrounding Bran's fall.

No, he is watching Jaime and Cersei's reaction to the news about Bran and then says, once he's figured out they are responsible what happened to them, that he'd love for Bran to wake up because he must have interesting things to say. Jaime glares at him and asks whose side he's on.

Tyrion knew.

[HouseofStark]

Readers don't call it madness because we like Tyrion or know that he was innocent - we call it madness because even if he was guilty, it was simply too risky to arrest him, without having other plans and variables in place. Taking him to the Vale wasn't a bad idea, arresting him in the first place was.

it's a madness i can understand. i think anybody that could put the person, who they believed hurt their family, firmly in their power would probably take that course. the real madness was actually letting him go. at no point should tyrion have been given an opportunity to win his freedom. the die has been cast, they've crossed the rubicon and losing such a valuable asset like tyrion was a costly mistake. say the events of the book transpire along a similar course, the starks could very well end up with both Lannister boys as their prisoner, as well as negating the positive effect that tyrion would have had in the defense and upkeep of KL.

taking tyrion was a mistake, but the bigger mistake was losing him.

[David Selig]

A very valuable hostage? Yes, like her girls were back in KL under the very Lannister regime. Readers don't call it madness because we like Tyrion or know that he was innocent - we call it madness because even if he was guilty, it was simply too risky to arrest him, without having other plans and variables in place. Taking him to the Vale wasn't a bad idea, arresting him in the first place was. It's the same thing with Ned. It was madness to tell Cersei because it gave her a chance to plot and scheme to bring him down, just like Cat's arrest of Tyrion gave Tywin the go ahead to set fire to and pillage the Riverlands.

In the grand schee of things Tywin sending Gregor to burn a few villages mattered very little. While Robert was alive, he wouldn't dare to start an open war. And the Lannisters were already planning to get rid of Robert before they knew Tyrion was arrested - Cersei provoking him to participate at the tourney was a clear example of that.

Ned screwing things up in KL is what caused the problems of the Starks, not Tyrion's arrest, which changed very little.

[LordBloodraven]

Interestingly enough, not one single character on the Stark side calls Tyrion's arrest "madness." In fact, they are very upset that she's lost him, not that she arrested him.

Losing him was madness, not his arrest. He would have been a very valuable hostage -- especially if they had gotten Jaime too shortly thereafter. It is only the reader who calls Tyrion's arrest "madness," because the reader likes Tyrion and is aware that he didn't personally order the hit on Bran. What the reader frequently neglects to remember is that Tyrion is a material witness, if not the guilty party himself, and knew very well that Jaime and Cersei were involved with Bran's supposed fall, even teasing them about it.

With the information that Catelyn had, I would have arrested Tyrion too. With the information that I have, I would still have arrested him, I just wouldn't have headed for the Vale.

Losing him when the war was declared was madness. Arresting him when war wasn't engaged while her husband was in KL with their daughter was too. Overall, the arrest of Tyrion wasn't something that was premeditated. It came to her mind, when Tyrion discovered her. She acted on the spot and I can see why

[brashcandy]

If it is madness, then why don't any other characters in the book call it madness? Roose Bolton is excited about it. IIRC, there was a collection of groans when they heard she lost him.

Name one Stark loyalist who calls it madness, and I'll change my mind. I eagerly await the quote.

I'm sorry. I didn't realise I had to depend on the characters in the text to do my analysis for me! I'll be sure next time to base every opinion on how a character reacts to it first. :uhoh:

[LordBloodraven]

If it is madness, then why don't any other characters in the book call it madness? Roose Bolton is excited about it. IIRC, there was a collection of groans when they heard she lost him.

Name one Stark loyalist who calls it madness, and I'll change my mind. I eagerly await the quote.

The Stark loyalists were obviously pissed off that she let him go, given that it was Tyrion's abduction that started the war. Tyrion could have been a valuable hostage for them because they were in war. The abduction was madness because it started the war; the loss was madness because they lost a good leverage. If Catelyn hadn't captured Tyrion, they wouldn't be on their way south.

No, he is watching Jaime and Cersei's reaction to the news about Bran and then says, once he's figured out they are responsible what happened to them, that he'd love for Bran to wake up because he must have interesting things to say. Jaime glares at him and asks whose side he's on.

Tyrion knew.

Tyrion knew, but did Cat knew that Tyrion knew. And even if he knew at that moment, it was a foolish idea to abduct him, on the spot while her husband and her daughters were in the capital.

[Alexia]

Tyrion knew, but did Cat knew that Tyrion knew.

*headdesk*

:lol:

[David Selig]

The abduction was madness because it started the war

No, it did not, there was no war until Robert was killed.

[The Anti-Targ]

Motivated purely by revenge = evil. The sooner someone relieves her of her burden of semi-life the better. Dondarrion was looking for a way out, and Thoros was simply wrong for agreeing to Dondarrion's wishes. She shouldn't have been revived except as a witness to the treachery. To allow her the leadership of the group and to be the one to pass final judgement is an unconscionable abrogation of duty on the part of the non-undead.

[brashcandy]

The Stark loyalists were obviously pissed off that she let him go, given that it was Tyrion's abduction that started the war. Tyrion could have been a valuable hostage for them because they were in war. The abduction was madness because it started the war; the loss was madness because they lost a good leverage. If Catelyn hadn't captured Tyrion, they wouldn't be on their way south.

I'm sure Roose thought it was a swell idea when she released Jaime too. How else would he have delivered such a pleasant sentiment at the RW. :rolleyes: