ARYa_Nym Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Yeah, except, no she wasn't. Case in point: Jon Snow. Not. Fine. But that subject will hijack this thread, and has been beaten to death on numerous occasions, so we're walking, we're walking...Most defenses I've seen of her were that she wasn't expected to mother him as she was not his mother so she did what was expected of her there. She married Ned and became a lady. Her complaints about Arya changing her behavior were mainly due to the fact that Arya wasn't behaving the way a highborn lady should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdsong66 Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Most defenses I've seen of her were that she wasn't expected to mother him as she was not his mother so she did what was expected of her there. Yes, except in ADWD, Bran has that dream where Ned is praying that she, Catelyn will grow to care for him, Jon. Also, her refusal to allow Jon to stay at Winterfell after Ned became hand was viewed by him as "damnedbly cruel," and he goes even further to compare her to Cercei. Bummer, that.The situation, in total, mirrors her marriage in that she had little choice there, as well. That Ned could pray for a smoother way between Jon and Catelyn might suggest, just might mind you, that it was reluctantly accepted that she chose not to mother him, but that is not to say that it was viewed as "fine" by all parties involved.By the way, i am really enjoying this little internet thing we have going on here. :)Geez, this subject can just suck you in....there is no escape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Yes, except in ADWD, Bran has that dream where Ned is praying that she, Catelyn will grow to care for him, Jon. Also, her refusal to allow Jon to stay at Winterfell after Ned became hand was viewed by him as "damnedbly cruel," and he goes even further to compare her to Cercei. Bummer, that.The situation, in total, mirrors her marriage in that she had little choice there, as well. That Ned could pray for a smoother way between Jon and Catelyn might suggest, just might mind you, that it was reluctantly accepted that she chose not to mother him, but that is not to say that it was viewed as "fine" by all parties involved.By the way, i am really enjoying this little internet thing we have going on here. :)Geez, this subject can just suck you in....there is no escape.I do too. :)It's my understanding that bastards are usually not raised in the home with trueborn children. As we know R+L=J so that wasn't a safe option for Ned. Her animosity towards Jon just made it more believable. She wanted Jon sent away but Ned allowed it so ultimately he was okay with it.When Ned prayed for that he didn't know her. They were strangers. He prayed the same for his children. He hoped for the best basically.Anyways, Catelyn never had a problem with being a lady. Arya did. Ned saw Lyanna in Arya when he noticed that she didn't want to be a lady. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Also, her refusal to allow Jon to stay at Winterfell after Ned became hand was viewed by him as "damnedbly cruel," and he goes even further to compare her to Cercei. Bummer, that.Because he is an Hypocrite. He, himself, wasn't even at Winterfell when he was Jon's age, he was fostered. He wanted to take Bran away from Winterfell, too. He never batted an eyelash at six year old Robert Arryn being fostered.He doesn't want to take Jon with him and Arya, because he'd be somehow "shunned"? Balderdash. Plenty of bastards in KL, not shunned. See Edric Storm, see Oberyn's children, Aurane Waters...This here is a mere attempt at manipulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Why apologize? Everyone is entitled to like or dislike whomever they want. :)Ta. I wasn't necessarily apologising for having an opinion... But I must say, sometimes I fear to thread on some threads, if that makes any sense. It's straightforward enough when it's a factual issue, i.e., 'when was Robert's Rebellion?', or 'who was with Eddard at the ToJ?'. But when it's a something open to interpretations, I've often seen people being just plain rude to one another, simply because of different ways of looking at any given character/event. And 'likes' and 'dislikes' fall into that category. So, my sorry was just a way to make it very clear that I didn't mean to sound rude or harsh in anyway. As to the first quoted part, Yes, I imagine it would be unfair to suggest that Arya isn't like Lyanna & Brandon based on lack of individual POVs as is used to confirm her "likeness" to Catelyn. But, if the debate is based on what we know versus what we have been told, or what has been alluded to, via third parties, gossip, or innuendo, then the only person who has proven the capacity to kill, not maim, not injure, not deliver a little boo-boo, is Catelyn, two deaths delivered as Catelyn Tully Stark, and several as Stoneheart, by her own POV. And it should not go unmentioned that it was Arya, as Nymeria, who discovered the desecrated body of Catelyn, and while Stoneheart is decorating trees with Lannisters and Freys, Arya is, some would argue, performing much worse in her FM training simultaneously. In effect, they are mirroring each other completely without knowledge of the other. Totally agree. In fact, I would go so far as to suggest it is Cat's ability to see herself in Arya, to fear the mirror in front of you, to know and understand the thoughts because you share them, that makes Cat seem less nurturing with Arya. She feared that Arya would do what she, Catelyn was capable of doing, but didn't, until circumstances made it virtually unavoidable. She loves and fears Arya because she fears the extremes within herself she knows she is capable of that Arya acts on. Is that making sense? IOW, GRRM has provided a very nuanced example of the classic Mother-Daughter struggle, age old. No small feat, I would imagine, for a man. Yeah, I typed it.In short, Catelyn could totally be a FM. So easily.Yes, I agree with some of the things you say. I just need to be on the computer to reply properly. It's kinda late now, so I'll do it tomorrow. Unless, of course, this itch to do so now doesn't go away... :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Just to clarify I looked it up and the person who offered to keep Arya was an oarsman. I thought it was a woman."Take her on as a cabin girl," said a passing oarsman, a bolt of wool over one shoulder. "She can sleep with me." "Mind your tongue," the captain snapped."He's probably a pedo from the way it's worded so it's an extremely undesirable option but still technically a choice. Once she got to Braavos though she didn't have a choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Just to clarify I looked it up and the person who offered to keep Arya was an oarsman. I thought it was a woman.He's probably a pedo from the way it's worded so it's an extremely undesirable option but still technically a choice. Once she got to Braavos though she didn't have a choice.Hmmmmm... Isn't there always a choice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordBloodraven Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Just to clarify I looked it up and the person who offered to keep Arya was an oarsman. I thought it was a woman.He's probably a pedo from the way it's worded so it's an extremely undesirable option but still technically a choice. Once she got to Braavos though she didn't have a choice.That's not a choice. Which sane girl will risk being raped? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Hmmmmm... Isn't there always a choice?Technically yes. Braavos was a foreign country and she didn't speak the language. She didn't know anyone. If she goes off with just anyone she could find herself in a terrible situation. A young girl could be taken advantage of very easily.That's not a choice. Which sane girl will risk being raped?That's why I said that it's extremely undesirable so she picked the better one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Technically yes. Braavos was a foreign country and she didn't speak the language. She didn't know anyone. If she goes off with just anyone she could find herself in a terrible situation. A young girl could be taken advantage of very easily.That's why I said that it's extremely undesirable so she picked the better one.Yes, I agree. She picked the better one! Want to put 'better one' in bold but don't have the option here. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Yes, I agree. She picked the better one! Want to put 'better one' in bold but don't have the option here. :-)Yeah, I'm thinking that besides being sold into it this could be one of the ways that they help fill the whorehouses in Westeros. Of course not every case but many of the girls could have gotten there because they felt that they had no where else to go or maybe someone deceived them by promising to take them somewhere safe and they ended up there.EDIT because this has nothing to do with Uncat I'll get back on topic by saying that she's neither good nor evil but I didn't like her addition to the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Yeah, I'm thinking that besides being sold into it this could be one of the ways that they help fill the whorehouses in Westeros. Of course not every case but many of the girls could have gotten there because they felt that they had no where else to go or maybe someone deceived them by promising to take them somewhere safe and they ended up there.Absolutely. I never thought she had any better options, really. Just making the argument that there is always a choice, and I'm glad she picked the best one available to her. Devil's advocate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Absolutely. I never thought she had any better options, really. Just making the argument that there is always a choice, and I'm glad she picked the best one available to her. Devil's advocate?I think it was a lesser of two evils situation. Jaqen helped her though so I could see why she would think that the FM would help her as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 I think it was a lesser of two evils situation. Jaqen helped her though so I could see why she would think that the FM would help her as well.I really don't remember this, but doesn't she think about having Jaqen's 'skills' when they are both in Harrenhal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 I really don't remember this, but doesn't she think about having Jaqen's 'skills' when they are both in Harrenhal?When he changed his face yes."Show me, she blurted. "I want to do it too." "If you would learn, you must come with me." "I can't. I have to go home."..."Then we must part."...He lifted her hand and pressed a small coin into her palm..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flame7926 Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 I dont understand what Jaime did to make Cat hate her. He didnt harm Starks or Tullys. And he had no oppurtunity to return either daughter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 I dont understand what Jaime did to make Cat hate her. He didnt harm Starks or Tullys. And he had no oppurtunity to return either daughter. Because she is a sanctimonious holier than thou lady and he is the Kingslayer.:-)Seriously now, I think there may be bad blood between the houses, but I really don't remember. My previous answer is at least part of it, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 How about crippling Bran, that's a pretty good reason, don't you think? Then there's the whole "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" by Roose at the Red Wedding... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 How about crippling Bran, that's a pretty good reason, don't you think?My god, how did I do that? I had a feeling there was something, and just couldn't remember. My bad. That's more than enough reason to hate and despise him so much more than she actually does, even. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voodooqueen126 Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Because he is an Hypocrite. He, himself, wasn't even at Winterfell when he was Jon's age, he was fostered. He wanted to take Bran away from Winterfell, too. He never batted an eyelash at six year old Robert Arryn being fostered.He doesn't want to take Jon with him and Arya, because he'd be somehow "shunned"? Balderdash. Plenty of bastards in KL, not shunned. See Edric Storm, see Oberyn's children, Aurane Waters...This here is a mere attempt at manipulation.I think Ned wanted Jon to join the Night Watch so that he as Rhaegar's son, would not have any issue... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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