Is Aegon VI fake?

[ARYa_Nym]

As for the ,"why would he lie" maybe because he can? Why did he say that Aegon knows what it's like to be hunted? Who exactly was doing that?

He said that he's doing this for the realm but he didn't care about the realm when he was whispering in Aerys' ear. How is Cersei good for the realm vs. Kevan and Mace who wanted peace?

He also said that he was doing it for the children. I'm pretty sure it was stated that he uses children as his little birds and he cuts out their tongues so I don't believe that he cares about children.

[Lummel]

As a further point in favour, how hard would it really be to switch babies? Who could tell the difference? His mother, some ladies looking after him, and that's. Babies freshly born look remarkably unlike to uninterested bystanders. Guards wouldn't have noticed. Likely they weren't given the chance, because Varys could pull a swith through the tunnels. We have no record of him during the Sack after his arguing against opening the gates to Tywin.

If the switch occurs after Varys learns that Pycelle has persuaded Aerys to open the gates then why not organise the escape of Elia and both children? Presumabley this was the moment that Viserys and his mother also fled so why not have a party of loyalists flee together?

Because if Aegon is real, he's the heir to the throne. Whatever happens with Dany and Viserys, his claim still supersedes theirs. And if they can keep "The Usurpers hired daggers" hunting after D&V, Aegon is safe. All the while that D&V are trying to stay alive, Aegon is being prepared for his task, Blackfyre or no.

The usurpers daggers, until Dany is pregnant, appear to be a figment of Viserys' imagination. If Aegon is real and V&I are devotees of the Targaryen cause then there's no reason for Dany and Viserys to be as neglected as they were.

Ok if aegon is indeed a fake then why when varys murders ser kevan did he talk about aegon as a true king etc, he would have no reason to lie knowing that kevan would die.

& why tell the truth? Why actually waste his breath talking to Kevan at all, unless of course he's not talking to Kevan - he's talking to the little birds who otherwise have no reason to be present.

[Ser Pink of Floyd]

I doubt it. Varys isn't an idiot; and when he was talking to Kevan, he was addressing a dead man. What did he have to gain by lying about Aegon's authenticity in front of him?

W

Well, you could argue that Varys isnt the only one with spies in his service within Kings Landing. Cersei had hers in AGoT and Little Finger seems to be knowing a lot about whats happening in KL despite being at the Vale. ASoIaF is just 1 big game of poker, with bluffs and double bluffs. Its possible that Varys is still keeping his cards close to him and selling Kevan and anyone who might be listening some false details. He might still be telling the truth ofcourse... but can we really trust Varys to do that?

[Raksha the Demon]

Also, as reasons why a switch may have been prepared for: it's well known that Robert hated Targaryens with a passion. He had a hatred for Rhaegar that apparently preceded the Tourney of Harrenhal. And Varys know more then he needed to know of Tywin's way of reacting to slights. So there was ample reason to at least be fearful for baby Aegon's life. Elia could have fought to save the life of any doomed baby. It was "luck" that Gregor behaved like the brute he was and destroyed the head of the baby, making it impossible to tell anything by what the baby looked like. Also, Varys mentions that the switch was prepared for by going to look for a baby that could be passed of as Aegon. I forget the exact details in ADWD, but I think it says something like he bartered with a commoner to trade babies. I'm not sure but I think this is from his confession to Kevan, so why would he lie?

I just thought of something that supports the idea of Elia fighting to save an infant she knew was not her son - Oberyn's conversation with Tyrion in ASOS. Oberyn tells Tyrion of Oberyn and Elia's visit, as teens on the marriage market, to Casterly Rock and their seeing the infant Tyrion. Through Oberyn, GRRM goes out of his way to tell the readers that Elia loved babies and puppies/kittens, and wanted to hold baby Tyrion - she was a person who loved little babies, helpless kittens, etc. This type of woman would have fought to stop Gregor from killing a baby, even if the baby was not her child; especially if she had been nurturing the infant for a few days or more. I wonder if GRRM had the yet-to-be-revealed supposed baby switch in mind, and Elia's defense of the infant who was supposedly a peasant imposter, when he scripted Oberyn's revelations to Tyrion...

[Chris_from_Warrenton]

I am not sure whether Aegon is real or fake - it can go either way. But, if YG is really Aegon, then a baby switch must have occurred and have been prior to the saking the KL.

Elia's motivation for going along with a switch (if it actually happened) was no different than Lyanna making Ned promise to claim Jon as his own bastard. It is better to send your child away and hide them from your enemies, even if it means having their rights and destiny unrecognized/unfullfilled, then to see them die a certain death. As Tyrion says, "death is certain and final, and life is so full of possibilities (paraphrasing)".

Her "fighting like a tigress" might have been real concern for the imposter child - true, but she is also protecting her own child by being convincing. That is motivation enough.

In AGOT, Danny reveals that the remnants of the Targ family (Viserys and herself) are convinced that Aegon is dead - that "Elia saw both her children killed before her eye (paraphrasing)". If accurate, this supports the notion that any switch happened before the sacking of KL.

[Lord Toblerone]

Am I really the first person in 3 pages to be pedantic and point out it's Aegon VI not Aegon IV?

[RuneWood Motte]

And even then at a certain age babies do look a lot alike, so somebody who has never seen the child can't exactly say whether or not it is in fact Aegon. Gregor Clegane wouldn't have bothered to check for purple eyes and silver-blonde hair, he just ripped the kid away from Elia's grasp and smashed him. His eyes would have been pulped by the blow and he likely had no hair at all. So how else could he have been identified.

Guessing somebodies age like that isn't a reliable method. Aegon is likely young looking for his age, there are eighteen year olds who can pass for fifteen or sixteen due to their boyish appearance. Tyrion is likely judging on those features and guessing.

LotN

It says in AGoT that Aegon was around one year's old at the time he was murdered. I know a lot of children, and believe me, you can tell them apart very easily at that age just as you would any person beyond 5-6 months old. And they definitely have hair. So, I think people would notice, especially those close to him (i.e Elia, nursemaids, Kingsguard etc.). And just because another baby has the same hair and eye colour doesn't mean they're twins of each other; facial features constitute what mainly separates the appearance of one person from another. They could have different noses, bone structure, jawlines, eyebrows... and those and others are things a mother would certainly recognise as different from her own child.

And if Elia knew, and as remarked before loved children, about the baby swap and that it was a likelihood that knights were going to storm in and actually kill her baby, why were Rhaenys and Viserys not also smuggled out? I don't think Elia, as she's described, would let children die nor do I think she preferred her son over her daughter, as Rhaenys was older and Elia would have been able to spend more time forming a bond with her. Not to mention that Rhaenys would've been far easier to swap, since a lot of people in Westeros have dark hair, olive skin (um...anyone from Dorne, really).

So if she knew, why didn't she save both of her children? Why would she willingly sacrifice her daughter, knowing it was inevitable that she would die? I don't think that sounds like a woman who loved babies and kittens.

Tyrion's guess about "Aegon's" age is a significant hint. Yes, people can be mistaken for being an age relatively close to their own. But this is Westeros, where apparently a child can almost certainly not be his father's son merely because he doesn't look like him, and a child of his ancestor mixed with the same family line did. No one in the modern world would stroll into court and have that as the basis for adultery and incest. But to Stannis and Ned, both respectable men, this stands as good evidence that Joffrey is a bastard Lannister. And guess what? He is.

This is GRRM's world. And when he puts something in text that says a character doesn't look the age that the character is really supposed to, that serves as a pretty obvious clue. Plus, it's just good writing; why put that in there if it didn't serve some kind of purpose? And not only that, Tyrion doesn't say, "he looked seventeen", closer to Aegon's eighteen/maybe nineteen age, but rather that he looked fifteen, which puts his birth date way after the War of the Usurper (going by that Jon and Robb were born during this time, and Jon is about seventeen in ADwD).

With that in mind, I definitely think "Aegon" is a fake, possibly a Blackfyre descendant by Illyrio and Serra, as others have already said.

[ARYa_Nym]

It says in AGoT that Aegon was around one year's old at the time he was murdered. I know a lot of children, and believe me, you can tell them apart very easily at that age just as you would any person beyond 5-6 months old. And they definitely have hair. So, I think people would notice, especially those close to him (i.e Elia, nursemaids, Kingsguard etc.). And just because another baby has the same hair and eye colour doesn't mean they're twins of each other; facial features constitute what mainly separates the appearance of one person from another. They could have different noses, bone structure, jawlines, eyebrows... and those and others are things a mother would certainly recognise as different from her own child.

True, if people started to notice and talk then word should have gotten back to Aerys. Elia's behavior would have changed like Gilly's did. We know that Aerys was keeping her as a hostage so he most likely would be upset that she tried to send away Aegon.

[KingsGoldenHand]

Well I loved the whole Huck Finn intro of Aegon, they were the most magical pages of the whole series to me. Combined with the Blackfyre conspiracy, which I believe is real and want to succeed, and I'm rooting for him. Very slim chance he's actually Aegon son of Rhaegar though. Lucky for him if anything since i can see George wanting to put the bastard line on the throne when it's all said and done.

[brashcandy]

I doubt it. Varys isn't an idiot; and when he was talking to Kevan, he was addressing a dead man. What did he have to gain by lying about Aegon's authenticity in front of him?

Actually, in that entire conversation, Varys never claims that Aegon was swapped or that he's the real Aegon directly. It is only loosely implied, and he places a lot more emphasis on Aegon being the right ruler for Westeros:

... Doubt, division and mistrust will eat the very ground beneath your boy king, whilst Aegon raises his banner above Storm's End and the lords of the realm gather round him."

"Aegon?" For a moment he did not understand. Then he remembered. A babe swaddled in a crimson cloak, the cloth stained with his blood and brains. "Dead. He's dead."

"No." The Eunuch's voice seemed deeper. "He is here. Aegon has been shaped for rule since before he could walk..."

Of course, I could simply be grasping at straws, but Varys never explicitly states that Aegon is real. He replies "no" in response to Kevan's claim that Aegon is dead, which, considering that there's now an Aegon on Westerosi soil claiming to be the heir to the throne, is strictly correct. "Aegon" isn't dead, but is he the real baby that Elia and Rhaegar gave birth to? Varys never confirms this explicitly, but simply goes on to boast of all the boy's education and training. If he had said, "No, Aegon is alive" then we could perhaps assert that he was speaking the truth about some baby swap, but in saying Aegon "is here" it sounds very suspicious.

Also, in AGOT, when Illyrio is preparing Dany for her wedding to Khal Drogo, he makes a comment about how much she looks like Targ - something to the effect of who would ever doubt it. It's just speculation, but I think it suggests that he too was counting on Aegon's looks to seal the deal, and convince others of his authenticity.

[Melpomene]

And if Elia knew, and as remarked before loved children, about the baby swap and that it was a likelihood that knights were going to storm in and actually kill her baby, why were Rhaenys and Viserys not also smuggled out? I don't think Elia, as she's described, would let children die nor do I think she preferred her son over her daughter, as Rhaenys was older and Elia would have been able to spend more time forming a bond with her. Not to mention that Rhaenys would've been far easier to swap, since a lot of people in Westeros have dark hair, olive skin (um...anyone from Dorne, really).

^And the fact that Ellia also wouldn't have cared about gender differences on account of having that Dornish mentality/custom where children inherit and receive status/work equally regardless if they are a son or daughter.

So even if married to the Targs, she was personally raised in believing that girls and boys were equal.

Only way I can see otherwise, is if Rhaegar REALLY somehow convinced her that YG was the prince that was promised and sacrificing the other child might have to happen, or Ellia was completely oblivious to the baby switch which occured last minute, or perhaps there was going to be an attempt to smuggle Rhaenys but it was too late.

Or in another crackpot theory, Rhaenys herself is also alive after all. All the bodies were wrapped in cloth when they were presented, so wouldn't have been able to identity them on the spot. That scene can be open to speculation.

But yeah, I also find it tricky to believe that Rhaenys would be left behind to get so easily killed. On a side note, both children had strong claims - Aegon's survival wouldn't have been garuanteed, would be important to have the other one. The two of them together would have been dynamic in achieving solid marriage pacts too.

Too bad we can't get a DNA test.

Jon Connington: My baby's father is being denied that he is the father! All thanks to that no good fandom!

Maury: Why do you think they are denying that Rhaegar is the father?

Jon Connington: Because apparently the "dates don't match up", Maury.

Maury: Do you think they look alike?

Jon Connington: Hell yeah! Look at that nose Maury, look at that nose! They look just alike Maury! And those ears and hair! *points to screen repeatedly*

Maury: Alright, I have the results here. On the case of 15-something-year-old Aegon, Rhaegar, is NOT the father.

Jon Connington: :shocked:

Maury: Illyrio, you ARE the father.

Illyrio: :leer:

[Alia of the knife]

As for the ,"why would he lie" maybe because he can? Why did he say that Aegon knows what it's like to be hunted? Who exactly was doing that?

He said that he's doing this for the realm but he didn't care about the realm when he was whispering in Aerys' ear. How is Cersei good for the realm vs. Kevan and Mace who wanted peace?

He also said that he was doing it for the children. I'm pretty sure it was stated that he uses children as his little birds and he cuts out their tongues so I don't believe that he cares about children.

I agree.

If Varys was so concerned with the realm, then why mount a whispering campaign against Rhaegar and Rhaella if they are the "good Targs?"

He was happy enough to continue poisoning Aerys against Rhaegar to the point that had Rhaegar not wanted to initially act against his own Father, he would have to just to save his own life, or keep from being imprisoned himself.

[Ser-Arthur-Dayne]

Ok if aegon is indeed a fake then why when varys murders ser kevan did he talk about aegon as a true king etc, he would have no reason to lie knowing that kevan would die.

Fake it 'till you make it? He wants to truly believe the words he's saying himself.

[Alia of the knife]

Well I loved the whole Huck Finn intro of Aegon, they were the most magical pages of the whole series to me. Combined with the Blackfyre conspiracy, which I believe is real and want to succeed, and I'm rooting for him. Very slim chance he's actually Aegon son of Rhaegar though. Lucky for him if anything since i can see George wanting to put the bastard line on the throne when it's all said and done.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that imagines Aegon with a straw hat and a pole. :)

[kg1982]

It's not impossible to smuggle out a baby from Kings Landing to an unknown place but people would know, quite a few people (a wetnurse, servants, guards, the crew of a ship). If the child was Aegon son of rhaegar why bring him up separately from Viserys and Dany (and why if it's safer to keep the heirs part are Dany and Viserys left together) why take him to an unknown place rather than to the strong fortress of Dragonstone or to his relatives in Dorne? Why not establish a court in exile? It's all odd. Secrecy is only required if there is something to hide, the mere fact of being a surviving targaryen isn't enough - it's well known that Viserys and Dany live after all.

The actions of Illyrio and Varys toward Viserys and Dany seal the Aegon is fake argument for me. If V&I were such huge Targaryen supporters, then why would they let two of the remaining Targ children flee helplessly across the Free Cities. Why not hide them and raise them like Aegon? It seems likely that Dany and Viserys were meant to be pawns. My theory is that the original plan was to have the Dothraki wreck havoc on Westros and then have Aegon come to clean it up afterwards. Westros would abandon King Bob and rally toward the son of their beloved Rhaegar and Westros' savior from the barbarians. Viserys and Dany would either be killed in the chaos or Viserys would be executed by Aegon (for treason, war crimes, etc.) and Dany married to Aegon to cement Aegon's claim. However, Viserys got himself killed too early, Westros dissolved into chaos without any help, and Dany hatched dragons.

[Ser-Arthur-Dayne]

Well I loved the whole Huck Finn intro of Aegon, they were the most magical pages of the whole series to me.  Combined with the Blackfyre conspiracy, which I believe is real and want to succeed, and I'm rooting for him. Very slim chance he's actually Aegon son of Rhaegar though.  Lucky for him if anything since i can see George wanting to put the bastard line on the throne when it's all said and done.

Oh shit! So I'm not the only one who saw this :D

[Ser-Arthur-Dayne]

I'm glad I'm not the only one that imagines Aegon with a straw hat and a pole. :)

Lol, I always imagined him like this, with blue hair: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/76/76-h/images/c06-48.jpg

[Chalais]

Well since GRRM said that the series was inspired by the War of Roses so a union between a Aegon Blackfyre and Daenerys Targaryen would fit the RL conclusion to the War with Henry VII marrying Elizabeth of York, in essence tying the last scions of the warring bloodlines together.

Though we could also see Stannis and Dany getting hitched and fitting that bill as well, which is kinda possible, but only kinda.

[brashcandy]

The actions of Illyrio and Varys toward Viserys and Dany seal the Aegon is fake argument for me. If V&I were such huge Targaryen supporters, then why would they let two of the remaining Targ children flee helplessly across the Free Cities. Why not hide them and raise them like Aegon? It seems likely that Dany and Viserys were meant to be pawns. My theory is that the original plan was to have the Dothraki wreck havoc on Westros and then have Aegon come to clean it up afterwards. Westros would abandon King Bob and rally toward the son of their beloved Rhaegar and Westros' savior from the barbarians. Viserys and Dany would either be killed in the chaos or Viserys would be executed by Aegon (for treason, war crimes, etc.) and Dany married to Aegon to cement Aegon's claim. However, Viserys got himself killed too early, Westros dissolved into chaos without any help, and Dany hatched dragons.

I agree. Plus, Illyrio giving Dany the three dragon eggs, and as far we know, not giving one of them to Aegon, heavily suggests that he knew she was the real Targ and giving them to Aegon wouldn't make much of a difference either way.

[Alia of the knife]

Well since GRRM said that the series was inspired by the War of Roses so a union between a Aegon Blackfyre and Daenerys Targaryen would fit the RL conclusion to the War with Henry VII marrying Elizabeth of York, in essence tying the last scions of the warring bloodlines together.

Though we could also see Stannis and Dany getting hitched and fitting that bill as well, which is kinda possible, but only kinda.

Good point.

(Just hope that makes his climb into the marriage bed a little more palatable). :)