Is Aegon VI fake?

[Adam West]

Adam West, I think there's a great difference between a sword heirloom and dragons. Swords were regularly passed down in many Westerosi families (Ice=Starks, Longclaw=Mormonts, etc.). So getting a family sword of course would not make people believe that a legitimized bastard (notice that people also already knew he was a bastard, not a trueborn son) was the real heir. However, if an unknown boy arrives with dragons, only linked with the Targaryen House as opposed to every high born House, then yes, I think they'd think he was the absolute real deal.

You really have to understand the cause of the first Blackfyre rebellion. At that time, the swords were a HUGE deal. The Targaryen sword "Blackfyre" was only passed on to the next Targaryen king as a sort of rite/heirloom. That is the only reason Daemon Blackfyre had a legitimate claim. Since the sword was in fact given to him by the KING who then decreed his bastard son the legitimate/rightful heir, technically it was Aegon the unworthys trueborn son Dareon II who rebelled. But I won't open that can of worms just yet :cool4:

My point being.. since at that time the Dragons were already dead, the sword held equal or in fact more importance as to legitimacy.

From the WIKI:

Blackfyre is a fabled Greatsword of Valyrian steel, wielded by Aegon the Conqueror. It was one of two Valyrian steel Swords, The Targaryens brought from Dragonstone after the Doom(the other isDark Sister) and was passed from Targaryen king to king, until Aegon the Unworthy chose to bestow it on his bastard son Daemon instead of his legitimate son.^[1] Some felt that the sword symbolized the monarchy, so the gift was the seed from which the Blackfyre Rebellion grew.

[Lord Varys]

Daeron was the elder son, Daemon the younger. And Aegon did not want Daemon to become King. Daeron succeeded him easily enough, Daemon only put forth his claim much later after Daemon married his sister Daenerys to Maron Martell.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I doubt it. Varys isn't an idiot; and when he was talking to Kevan, he was addressing a dead man. What did he have to gain by lying about Aegon's authenticity in front of him?

He didn't refer to Aegon as "Rhaegar and Elia's Aegon." He talks about Aegon becoming a king out of duty, not birthright. It's the same verbal truth-that's-really-a-lie that Ned pulls with Robert with Wylla. Varys can correct Kevan by saying that "Aegon" (i.e. this Aegon) is still alive, even though they can mean two different boys.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

I doubt that the Westeros equivalent of Jesus Christ himself, whoever that might be, could convince JonCon that YG was not Aegon. He has invested too much of himself, his life, and his purpose for living in the idea that he is going to restore Rhaegar's son to the throne and thereby redeem himself. Now that he has greyscale, his belief and motivation will only be more unshakeable, as this is going to be the last chance he has to make his life mean something. He has turned it into his dying wish and IMO will not be moved from that no matter what anyone else says, or what proof they offer.

[Adam West]

Daeron was the elder son, Daemon the younger. And Aegon did not want Daemon to become King. Daeron succeeded him easily enough, Daemon only put forth his claim much later after Daemon married his sister Daenerys to Maron Martell.

I think you meant to wrote that Aegon did not want Daeron to become king? And it was Daeron who married his sister off to Maron.

[ARYa_Nym]

I think that Connington will be convinced for the dramatic effect of his reaction. I can see him going out spectacularly. IMO it would be very GRRM to have Connington die without ever knowing that Rhaegar has a real son that lives.

[RuneWood Motte]

ARYa_Nym: Oh okay. I didn't know what Jon you were talking about, as you mentioned Jon Connington before. This series has too many Jon's, its confusing ^_^ I see your point with warging Mormont's raven, though, that could very well be a likelihood. But if so, what exactly are Bloodraven's plans for Jon, as he never hints anything to Bran (unless its that really creepy dream about the armour like black ice).

As for the other Jon, I think it's a bit different from Loras, in that Loras killed men he didn't really know, whereas this would be Jon killing a boy that he's raised personally all this time. The knights of the Rainbow guard were grown men who swore to protect Renly and failed. YG/"Aegon" is a boy that's been led to believe he's somerhing he's not, which isn't really his fault. He never asked Illyrio or Varys or anyone else to put him up to this. Plus, if Tyrion's guess is accurate (and it might not be, but still), then YG is just fifteen, and not the one who should really bear the brunt the blame for this scheme.

Of course, Jon C. might not be in his right mind when he finds out the truth, so it is possible. I just don't think so, nor do I think Jon could justify it to himself after the fact, as Loras did. Hopefully it won't be a decade before we find out.

Adam West: I do understand what you're saying, and I have in fact read the Dunk&Egg novellas, so I really do understand the cause of the Blackfyre rebellion. And yes, the sword in that instance is important. But take this circumstance: if "Aegon" comes to Westeros with a (just for kicks, let's say he has the valyrian sword Blackfyre, and yes, I know this aspect is unlikely, but I'm trying to prove a point) Targaryen heirloom sword and claims he is the real Aegon. How many people would believe him, honestly? Not a lot, I'd wager; he could've found the sword anywhere by countless means. Now lets say, he arrives with dragons, the true symbol of the Targaryen House, Blood and Fire. Now who would contest? You don't just happen across dragons, and as shown with Dany, apparently you really do need to be a true Targaryen to hatch them (even if it is under extraordinary circumstances). If he has the dragons, no one will argue openly that he's not who he claims to be.

So going back to the original point, his having dragons by his side would've helped him seal the deal of his legitimacy. Not that it really matters, since he's not getting them, as they're already Dany's.

[ARYa_Nym]

Oh okay. I didn't know what Jon you were talking about, as you mentioned Jon Connington before. This series has too many Jon's, its confusing ^_^ I see your point with warging Mormont's raven, though, that could very well be a likelihood. But if so, what exactly are Bloodraven's plans for Jon, as he never hints anything to Bran (unless its that really creepy dream about the armour like black ice).

As for the other Jon, I think it's a bit different from Loras, in that Loras killed men he didn't really know, whereas this would be Jon killing a boy that he's raised personally all this time. The knights of the Rainbow guard were grown men who swore to protect Renly and failed. YG/"Aegon" is a boy that's been led to believe he's somerhing he's not, which isn't really his fault. He never asked Illyrio or Varys or anyone else to put him up to this. Plus, if Tyrion's guess is accurate (and it might not be, but still), then YG is just fifteen, and not the one who should really bear the brunt the blame for this scheme.

Of course, Jon C. might not be in his right mind when he finds out the truth, so it is possible. I just don't think so, nor do I think Jon could justify it to himself after the fact, as Loras did. Hopefully it won't be a decade before we find out.

It's not the same as with Loras but he could have a similar reaction. I think that he cares more about what the boy represents rather than the boy himself. All I got from his POV was Rhaegar this Rhaegar that. He is endangering Aegon by being in close proximity to him without letting him know that he has greyscale.

As for BR, we don't know. He started to call him king after Jeor Mormont said that the line of the dragonkings has ended so I suspect that he considers Jon to be the heir to his house. He started doing it even more in ADWD by using his full name. As for other motivations like with the Others, prophecy, and things of that sort it remains to be seen although there are theories out there.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Well since GRRM said that the series was inspired by the War of Roses so a union between a Aegon Blackfyre and Daenerys Targaryen would fit the RL conclusion to the War with Henry VII marrying Elizabeth of York, in essence tying the last scions of the warring bloodlines together.

Though we could also see Stannis and Dany getting hitched and fitting that bill as well, which is kinda possible, but only kinda.

If you want to get strict with the Wars of the Roses parallel, the Targaryens are the Lancasters and the Baratheons are the Yorks. I see Aegon as a Perkin Warbeck type, only it'd be the equivalent of a Lancaster fake during a Yorkist reign, instead of Warbeck's Yorkist fake during a Lancaster reign.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I agree. Plus, Illyrio giving Dany the three dragon eggs, and as far we know, not giving one of them to Aegon, heavily suggests that he knew she was the real Targ and giving them to Aegon wouldn't make much of a difference either way.

Good point that I hadn't thought of before. If Aegon's real, why not give him the dragon eggs instead of Dany? Landing in Westeros with the eggs (or the dragons) would only further cement his claim and legitimacy. I'm still not sure what the dragon egg motive even was. Part of me thinks that Illyrio never really expected them to hatch, and part of me thinks he did, in which case it's even stranger not to give them to Aegon. I know there's a theory that the eggs are really remnants from the Targaryen stash and not from Asshai and maybe not even actually petrified.

[Ser-Arthur-Dayne]

Good point that I hadn't thought of before. If Aegon's real, why not give him the dragon eggs instead of Dany? Landing in Westeros with the eggs (or the dragons) would only further cement his claim and legitimacy. I'm still not sure what the dragon egg motive even was. Part of me thinks that Illyrio never really expected them to hatch, and part of me thinks he did, in which case it's even stranger not to give them to Aegon. I know there's a theory that the eggs are really remnants from the Targaryen stash and not from Asshai and maybe not even actually petrified.

I really don't think he gave them to Dany expecting them to hatch. IMO he just gave them to Dany to show his affection.

[Lummel]

If you want to get strict with the Wars of the Roses parallel, the Targaryens are the Lancasters and the Baratheons are the Yorks. I see Aegon as a Perkin Warbeck type, only it'd be the equivalent of a Lancaster fake during a Yorkist reign, instead of Warbeck's Yorkist fake during a Lancaster reign.

yeah and it's an apt parallel. Lambert Simnel and Perkin Warbeck claim to be the two princes who disappeared into the Tower of London during the reign of Richard III - so again a situation in which the lack of an unidentifiable body is ripe for exploitation.

[Dragonfish]

Also, as reasons why a switch may have been prepared for: it's well known that Robert hated Targaryens with a passion. He had a hatred for Rhaegar that apparently preceded the Tourney of Harrenhal.

Just as an aside, what is the evidence that Robert hated Rhaegar even before the tourney at Harrenhal?

Also, Varys mentions that the switch was prepared for by going to look for a baby that could be passed of as Aegon. I forget the exact details in ADWD, but I think it says something like he bartered with a commoner to trade babies. I'm not sure but I think this is from his confession to Kevan, so why would he lie?

No, it's in one of Tyrion's chapters that the switch is described. Varys himself does not say anything about Aegon other than the fact that he's here, and that he'd make a way better king than Tommen.

[Ser-Arthur-Dayne]

I doubt that the Westeros equivalent of Jesus Christ himself, whoever that might be, could convince JonCon that YG was not Aegon.  He has invested too much of himself, his life, and his purpose for living in the idea that he is going to restore Rhaegar's son to the throne and thereby redeem himself.  Now that he has greyscale, his belief and motivation will only be more unshakeable, as this is going to be the last chance he has to make his life mean something.  He has turned it into his dying wish and IMO will not be moved from that no matter what anyone else says, or what proof they offer.

I think the problem is Connington wants to so desperatly cling on Aegon being real, that he won't believe anything else.

[Ser-Arthur-Dayne]

Just as an aside, what is the evidence that Robert hated Rhaegar even before the tourney at Harrenhal?

I thought he just hated Rhaegar because he was next in line to take Mad Aerys' place, and Robert hated the Targs.

[RuneWood Motte]

It's not the same as with Loras but he could have a similar reaction. I think that he cares more about what the boy represents rather than the boy himself. All I got from his POV was Rhaegar this Rhaegar that. He is endangering Aegon by being in close proximity to him without letting him know that he has greyscale.

Very, very true. I got that feeling too. And about the greyscale too... okay, so maybe he doesn't care for YG deeply, but I don't think he'd rationally kill YG. Irrationally, however, is another point entirely. If he was in the fit of the moment...well, then I might actually feel bad for YG.

As for BR, we don't know. He started to call him king after Jeor Mormont said that the line of the dragonkings has ended so I suspect that he considers Jon to be the heir to his house. He started doing it even more in ADWD by using his full name. As for other motivations like with the Others, prophecy, and things of that sort it remains to be seen although there are theories out there.

Hmmm, makes you wonder, doesn't it? More support for R+L=J, I suppose. Maybe he could interfere again in regards to Jon's current...situation.

[ARYa_Nym]

I really don't think he gave them to Dany expecting them to hatch. IMO he just gave them to Dany to show his affection.

You just reminded me of how disgusting Illyrio is.

"Daenerys was half a child when she came to me, yet fairer even than my second wife, so lovely I was tempted to claim her for myself.Such a fearful, furtive thing, however, I knew I should get no joy from coupling with her. Instead I summoned a bedwarmer and fucked her vigorously until the madness passed. In truth be told, I did not think Daenerys would survive for long amongst the horselords."

[Pliskin]

About Blackfyre (a little off topic) : Do you think the sword will reappear ? Aegon wielding Blackfyre could be a great symbol : the sword of the kings.

As for BR, we don't know. He started to call him king after Jeor Mormont said that the line of the dragonkings has ended so I suspect that he considers Jon to be the heir to his house. He started doing it even more in ADWD by using his full name. As for other motivations like with the Others, prophecy, and things of that sort it remains to be seen although there are theories out there.

I don't understand. You're saying that Bloodraven considers Jon to be the heir to the throne ? If so, what did lead you to that conclusion ? (I know BR is pretty omniscient, but... what in the books does show that he is interested in Jon ?)

[Ser-Arthur-Dayne]

You just reminded me of how disgusting Illyrio is.

:ack: I forgot that he wanted to do Dany.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

yeah and it's an apt parallel. Lambert Simnel and Perkin Warbeck claim to be the two princes who disappeared into the Tower of London during the reign of Richard III - so again a situation in which the lack of an unidentifiable body is ripe for exploitation.

Indeed. I've read several books about the Wars of the Roses so I like to think I'm fairly good at recognizing the parallels. One interesting thing of note about Perkin Warbeck is that he did resemble Richard, Duke of York (or, rather, Edward IV, Richard's father), to the point where some historians believe that he could have been a bastard of Edward IV (who, liked Robert, liked the ladies) or a distant Yorkist cousin, a la the Blackfyres.

About Blackfyre (a little off topic) : Do you think the sword will reappear ? Aegon wielding Blackfyre could be a great symbol : the sword of the kings.

Considering that the Blackfyre sword was taken to Essos by Aegor Rivers, it'd be more of a symbol of bastarddom than legitimacy, I'd say. Who knows where it is now (does the Golden Company have it?), but it definitely has more connotations with bastards than real kings.

I don't understand. You're saying that Bloodraven considers Jon to be the heir to the throne ? If so, what did lead you to that conclusion ? (I know BR is pretty omniscient, but... what in the books does show that he is interested in Jon ?)

We're led to believe that Bloodraven wargs Jeor Mormont's crow. The same crow that squawks "King! King!" at Jon.