Is Aegon VI fake?

[Alia of the knife]

Jon Con strikes me as a little detached and cold.

I do think he would kill this boy if he found he'd been living and raising a lie, especially as this boy does no more for him than to give him some kind of attachment to Rhaegar.

What would be interesting is for him to meet Jon S.

I imagine him having the look of his Mother, (if what we suspect is true), but the demeanor and personality of his Father would make him immediately recognizable to Jon Con, and would most likely be devastating to him.

My bet is that he would not have been fond of Lyanna.

[Evamitchelle]

Jon Con strikes me as a little detached and cold.

I do think he would kill this boy if he found he'd been living and raising a lie, especially as this boy does no more for him than to give him some kind of attachment to Rhaegar.

What would be interesting is for him to meet Jon S.

I imagine him having the look of his Mother, (if what we suspect is true), but the demeanor and personality of his Father would make him immediately recognizable to Jon Con, and would most likely be devastating to him.

My bet is that he would not have been fond of Lyanna.

Jon is practically Ned junior when it comes to personality. No matter who his biological dad is, his real father remains Ned Stark as he was the one who raised him and taught him practically everything he knows.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Jon is practically Ned junior when it comes to personality. No matter who his biological dad is, his real father remains Ned Stark as he was the one who raised him and taught him practically everything he knows.

I dunno, I think he has Rhaegar's melancholy and slightly fatalistic worldview. Ned may have been no-nonsense and a little, uh, stiff, but he never gave me the impression of inherent sadness or pessimism. If any of the Stark kids followed in Ned's footsteps, literally and figuratively, it was Robb.

[ARYa_Nym]

.

Hmmm, makes you wonder, doesn't it? More support for R+L=J, I suppose. Maybe he could interfere again in regards to Jon's current...situation.

I think that he is still loyal to his house. Will Dany have greenseer help to slay the lie? IDK. Maybe he has more things on his mind.

I don't understand. You're saying that Bloodraven considers Jon to be the heir to the throne ? If so, what did lead you to that conclusion ? (I know BR is pretty omniscient, but... what in the books does show that he is interested in Jon ?)

The first time the raven called him king Jon and Jeor were discussing Targaryens:

"...until Jamie Lannister put an end to the line of the Dragonkings." 'King," croaked the rave. The bird flapped across the solar to land on Mormont's shoulder. "King," it said again, strutting back and forth. "He likes that word," Jon said smiling. "An easy word to say. An easy word to like." "King," the bird said again. "I think he means for you to have a crown, my lord." "The realm has three kings already, and that's two too many for my liking." Mormont stroked the raven under the beak with a finger, but all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow. It made him feel odd..."

ADWD gave us more reasons to think that it was being warged.

"...That bird is too clever by half..."

"..the Old Bear's raven peered down at him with shrewd black eyes. My last friend, Jon thought ruefully..."

"Did you follow me as well?" Jon reached to shoo the bird away but ended up stroking its feathers. The raven cocked its eyes at him. "Snow," it muttered, bobbing its head knowingly."

"..and woke with a raven pecking at his chest. "Snow," the bird cried..."Corn, " the bird said, and "King," and Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow." That was queer. The bird had never said his full name before, as best Jon could recall."

When Ghost was acting up.

"Easy, Ghost," Jon called. "Down. Sit, Ghost. Down. Yet when he made to touch him, the wolf bristled and bared his teeth...Mormont's raven seemed agitated too. "Snow," the bird kept screaming. "Snow, snow, snow." Jon shooed him off, had Satin start a fire, then sent him out after Bowen Marsh and Othell Yarwyck...."

[RuneWood Motte]

What would be interesting is for him to meet Jon S.

I imagine him having the look of his Mother, (if what we suspect is true), but the demeanor and personality of his Father would make him immediately recognizable to Jon Con, and would most likely be devastating to him.

My bet is that he would not have been fond of Lyanna.

That would be great if he did meet Jon Snow. I do think that from what we know of Rhaegar (stoic, sort of depressing, lack of humour) that Jon resembles him. I suppose that's Ned too, but I think there's something about him that ties Jon with Rhaegar and more Robb with Ned. Rhaegar plunges the whole kingdom into war over a prophecy; Jon plunges the Night's Watch into mutiny over the case of the Wildlings. Nor do I think Ned or Robb would have done a baby swap, as Jon does with Gilly's boy. But yeah, imagine Jon C.'s reaction. I wonder if he would like him?

[RuneWood Motte]

I think that he is still loyal to his house. Will Dany have greenseer help to slay the lie? IDK. Maybe he has more things on his mind.

I don't know what other stuff he would have on his mind, if either Jon and/or Dany are AA/PWwP. Seems pretty important at the moment, really.

[ARYa_Nym]

I don't know what other stuff he would have on his mind, if either Jon and/or Dany are AA/PWwP. Seems pretty important at the moment, really.

IDK. I feel like a lot of people think that he's the Great Other or something. :rofl:

I think we have reason in the text to think that he still cares about House Targaryen. I'm not so sure that he's gone off the deep end and is pro-Others or whatever the popular theory is. He may try to help Dany as well or get Bran to do it.

[Pliskin]

We're led to believe that Bloodraven wargs Jeor Mormont's crow. The same crow that squawks "King! King!" at Jon.

Wow, I missed that one. Or I forgot it.

Thanks for the quotes, ARYa_Nym.

[RuneWood Motte]

IDK. I feel like a lot of people think that he's the Great Other or something. :rofl:

I think we have reason in the text to think that he still cares about House Targaryen. I'm not so sure that he's gone off the deep end and is pro-Others or whatever the popular theory is. He may try to help Dany as well or get Bran to do it.

I've never thought he was the Great Other, but okay. ^_^

Hopefully he is still loyal to his house and he helps Dany and Jon out against the Others. Because, as of right now, they both seem pretty screwed.

[ByYourGrace]

If we combine it with the other info we have from the chapter we can surmise that so far Dorne is skeptical that he is who he says he is. Pretender in this sense would have a double-meaning.

& I think when it's all said in done he might go down in history as Aegon the Pretender after Dany exposes him.

i am so sick of people not using the word 'pretender' the way it is supposed to be used.

'pretender' only refers to a claimant to the throne. right now, aegon, daenerys, and stannis are all pretenders. it doesn't matter if they are real targaryens or not, but as none of them sit the throne, they are all pretenders. the modern definition of the verb 'pretend' meaning to falsely take the guise of came about much later.

[ARYa_Nym]

i am so sick of people not using the word 'pretender' the way it is supposed to be used.

'pretender' only refers to a claimant to the throne. right now, aegon, daenerys, and stannis are all pretenders. it doesn't matter if they are real targaryens or not, but as none of them sit the throne, they are all pretenders. the modern definition of the verb 'pretend' meaning to falsely take the guise of came about much later.

The latter definition applies to the context in which the word was used in this instance. She has never called Dany a pretender despite being a claimant to the throne.

All she did was ask if she had to call Quentyn king.

I've never thought he was the Great Other, but okay. ^_^

Hopefully he is still loyal to his house and he helps Dany and Jon out against the Others. Because, as of right now, they both seem pretty screwed.

I think the whole realm is screwed as is but we'll see.

Thanks for the quotes, ARYa_Nym.

Sure.

[Im no Ser]

Putting aside prophecies, motivations and opportunities, what is the actual evidence that Aegon is legitimate? There are three pieces, and they make a pretty weak case:

1) Varys says so

2) Varys says so to Kevan in the ADwD epilogue

3) He's got the right color hair and eyes

Varys' credibility is zero; regardless of what you think his long term endgame might be he's a self-confessed schemer and master of secrets. I don't find his statements to Kevan very telling - they aren't actually alone in the room, and he never states that Aegon is real, merely that he is fit to rule.

The physical appearance is practically worthless as proof - Varys and Ilyrio could find a child with the right coloring in Lys (where that coloring is more common) if you gave them four years, even if they didn't have a Blackfyre in the house already. And I also think it's worth pointing out that as per Jon Connington, Aegon doesn't have his father's eyes.

It's still an open question, but I'm surprised so many people have bought this with the case this weak.

But, as others have said, it doesn't matter. Whether he's the son of Aerys II, Ilyrio, or a fisherman from Lys, there are enough believers that he's a contender. And that's always been Varys' game - reality is often just what people believe it to be.

[the Scorpion Knight]

there Reasons I think Aegon isn't a Fake:

- it would be bad writing IMHO

- It causes a tension with Dany these two certainly will clash ( not out of legitimacy, but in terms of alliances,spouses and politicis )

- the prophecy of the undying the three heads has the dragon part

- mel satement in ASOS: "Others will come to Take their(of the dead kings) place"

Aegon replaces Robb the young king, tommen replaces the puppet on the throne, Euron balon as the reaver king

- people start to resemlbe stronger their family the older they get

and mummers dragon as Is more ambiguous than it appears IMHO:

It could mean a person pretending to be a dragon (Im thinking it could be Aurane Waters to Dany), a Dragon under a mummers wings( YG)

or a dragon appearing to be someone else (assuming R+L=J jon Snow)

[Evamitchelle]

I dunno, I think he has Rhaegar's melancholy and slightly fatalistic worldview. Ned may have been no-nonsense and a little, uh, stiff, but he never gave me the impression of inherent sadness or pessimism. If any of the Stark kids followed in Ned's footsteps, literally and figuratively, it was Robb.

Ned wasn't a bastard though, while Jon was and felt the distinction very acutely. I think all of the Stark kids are pretty similar to Ned in their behaviour, but I view Jon as having more "Starkness" than the others. They have the same sense of honour and justice, the same desire to help people no matter where they're from etc. Considering that Jon looks a lot like him as well I don't think Connington could recognize him as Rhaegar's son (if that's the case at all) after just a glance.

[LadyoftheNorth72]

i am so sick of people not using the word 'pretender' the way it is supposed to be used.

Yeah...it is almost as annoying as people posting about how "sick" they are of other people's usage of words, in order to come across as far more educated about the word's etymology than everyone else is. Seriously, get over yourself. We are not speaking middle or old English on the forum, we use words in their modern definition and context. Live with it.

'pretender' only refers to a claimant to the throne. right now, aegon, daenerys, and stannis are all pretenders. it doesn't matter if they are real targaryens or not, but as none of them sit the throne, they are all pretenders. the modern definition of the verb 'pretend' meaning to falsely take the guise of came about much later.

Much later where? In our world, or in the fantasy world we are discussing, where they commonly use words like "ser," "maester," "direwolf," "greenseer," and "wildling?". It is ridiculous to get all up on a high horse about the "correct" period usage of a term when discussing a world that does not exist, where they use words we have never used and have made significant changes to the spellings and definitions of words that we do use.

The current Wikipedia definition for a pretender includes "... impostors with wholly fabricated claims (as pretenders to Henry VII's throne Lambert Simnel and Perkin Warbeck). People in the latter category often assume the identities of deceased or missing royalty, and are sometimes referred to for clarity as false pretenders or royal impersonators.". If you want to use "fraud" or "fake" or "imposter" instead then have at it, but it is way presumptuous to forbid the rest of us to use "pretender" in its commonly, currently accepted way and definition.

[Dragonfish]

- It causes a tension with Dany these two certainly will clash ( not out of legitimacy, but in terms of alliances,spouses and politicis )

Aegon's presence creates tension no matter what. Even now there are those who suspect he is a fake, yet that doesn't prevent tension from arising, does it?

- the prophecy of the undying the three heads has the dragon part

George has said the third head need not be a Targaryen.

- mel satement in ASOS: "Others will come to Take their(of the dead kings) place"

Aegon replaces Robb the young king, tommen replaces the puppet on the throne, Euron balon as the reaver king

I don't understand why this supports the idea that Aegon is real. Could you clarify this?

- people start to resemlbe stronger their family the older they get

Maybe, but we're never given any indication that Young Griff resembles Rhaegar in any fashion beyond the typical Valyrian features, so I don't know why this is supposed to be a point in favor of his claim. In fact, the only time a comparison is drawn between him and Rhaegar is when Connington notes that his eye color is different from Rhaegar's.

and mummers dragon as Is more ambiguous than it appears IMHO:

It could mean a person pretending to be a dragon (Im thinking it could be Aurane Waters to Dany), a Dragon under a mummers wings( YG)

Why can't it be both? A fake dragon controlled by a former mummer would fit Aegon perfectly, if he turned out to be a fraud.

That said, one good point that you do touch on is that all of these arguments mostly hinge on YG being the mummer's dragon. If he's not, then I don't think there's much evidence for his being a fake.

[JP Dayne]

So that's why Illyrio actually seemed to be caring about another human being like Young Griff for once...Doih!

we don't get a lot of DOIH anymore these days. :D

I think that Connington will be convinced for the dramatic effect of his reaction. I can see him going out spectacularly. IMO it would be very GRRM to have Connington die without ever knowing that Rhaegar has a real son that lives.

indeed. but it also could be the trigger for JonCon to snap. he doesnt have anything to lose anymore, his clock is ticking.. if I were him, I'd kill the kid myself. he's only found of YG because of Rhaegar, whom he's really gay for. it is known.

You just reminded me of how disgusting Illyrio is.

that quote was gold, cmon, he's so oblivious of any orthodox social ties that makes his idea of doing dany and then dismissing it so freaking awesome :D

Jon Con strikes me as a little detached and cold.

I do think he would kill this boy if he found he'd been living and raising a lie, especially as this boy does no more for him than to give him some kind of attachment to Rhaegar.

What would be interesting is for him to meet Jon S.

I imagine him having the look of his Mother, (if what we suspect is true), but the demeanor and personality of his Father would make him immediately recognizable to Jon Con, and would most likely be devastating to him.

My bet is that he would not have been fond of Lyanna.

haha, exactly what I said up there. Him being gay for Rhaegar also adds up for not liking lyanna....

George has said the third head need not be a Targaryen.

I thought he meant that more in a "last name" basis

Like Jon Snow, who could be a Stark, and a Targ

Or maybe some blackfyre?

or someone with the blood of old valyria (dayne, lysene, some volantene remnants from the freehold)

[ByYourGrace]

Yeah...it is almost as annoying as people posting about how "sick" they are of other people's usage of words, in order to come across as far more educated about the word's etymology than everyone else is. Seriously, get over yourself. We are not speaking middle or old English on the forum, we use words in their modern definition and context. Live with it.

Much later where? In our world, or in the fantasy world we are discussing, where they commonly use words like "ser," "maester," "direwolf," "greenseer," and "wildling?". It is ridiculous to get all up on a high horse about the "correct" period usage of a term when discussing a world that does not exist, where they use words we have never used and have made significant changes to the spellings and definitions of words that we do use.

The current Wikipedia definition for a pretender includes "... impostors with wholly fabricated claims (as pretenders to Henry VII's throne Lambert Simnel and Perkin Warbeck). People in the latter category often assume the identities of deceased or missing royalty, and are sometimes referred to for clarity as false pretenders or royal impersonators.". If you want to use "fraud" or "fake" or "imposter" instead then have at it, but it is way presumptuous to forbid the rest of us to use "pretender" in its commonly, currently accepted way and definition.

i am not sure what wikipedia article you are reading, but the one for 'pretender' which IS a real word (not made up by martin as you suggest) includes both real and fabricated claimants.

usually i couldn't care less how people decide to butcher languages (i do it in several tongues), but when you're trying to base theories off of offhand statements involving the word, then surely you can agree that the meaning of the word IS important? again, i mean no personal offense and am only trying to stop misinformation from being passed around. the term 'pretender' itself does not mean that aegon is false. maybe he is, but this piece of evidence is not sufficient in my opinion.

[ARYa_Nym]

i am not sure what wikipedia article you are reading, but the one for 'pretender' which IS a real word (not made up by martin as you suggest) includes both real and fabricated claimants.

usually i couldn't care less how people decide to butcher languages (i do it in several tongues), but when you're trying to base theories off of offhand statements involving the word, then surely you can agree that the meaning of the word IS important? again, i mean no personal offense and am only trying to stop misinformation from being passed around. the term 'pretender' itself does not mean that aegon is false. maybe he is, but this piece of evidence is not sufficient in my opinion.

That's not the point I was making. I said that Dorne didn't know about the baby switch.

[Alia of the knife]

Ned wasn't a bastard though, while Jon was and felt the distinction very acutely. I think all of the Stark kids are pretty similar to Ned in their behaviour, but I view Jon as having more "Starkness" than the others. They have the same sense of honour and justice, the same desire to help people no matter where they're from etc. Considering that Jon looks a lot like him as well I don't think Connington could recognize him as Rhaegar's son (if that's the case at all) after just a glance.

I do think a lot of Jons personality is defined by his status, however, there is a darkness of personality that suggests something more than merely his status, and the hardness of his upbringing by Ned.

Thats why I say, if Jon met someone else who knew Rhaegar intimately, that person would most likely be able to see that something else informs his personality beyond his bastard status.

And not all the Starks are like Ned.

First off, Ned is naturally shy. He was never meant to rule, but to be a soldier as Cersei so reminds him. People do love him, and he was able to lead, but Brandon, Lyanna, and even Benjen all had pretty strong, passionate personalities.

To be sure, Jon will always look at Ned as his Father no matter what he finds out about himself.