Is Aegon VI fake?

[gramblor]

The Targaryens ruled for another hundred years after their dragons died out. Robert took the throne without dragons, Joffrey and Tommen ruled without dragons.

So why would "Aegon" need dragons?

The Targaryens ruled for another hundred years because they were already in control of the throne... No one is going to take it away from them unless there is a better claim, or there is a rebellion large enough to unseat them. In the case of Robert's rebellion, he had a huge amount of support in that he had the North, the Vale, and the Riverlands. Who does Aegon/"Aegon" have. He doesn't have the support of Dorne yet (they don't even know about him), thus leaving Aegon with the golden company and whatever few lords are still loyal to the Targs from Aerys reign. As for Joff and Tommen ruling without them, that seems to be going really well considering one of them is dead, and the others future is uncertain to say the least...

EDIT: to clear things up, I'm not saying that it's impossible to rule without dragons, I'm just saying that Aegon/"Aegon's" campaign would be considered futile previous to dragons/meeting up with Dany. Even now as he is in Westeros, the plan is hoping that Dany will leave Essos and join

[Lummel]

His taking the iron throne really didn't stand a chance until the dragons were born. Just seems kinda silly when I think about it, being that unless Varys and Illyrio are greenseers (ooooh new crackpots).

We know already from AGOT that Varys and Illyrio have been manipulating the political situation for their own ends...chances must have seemed pretty good from their point of view.

It not so much that the evidence for Aegon being fake was overwhelming but more because the idea that he might be real was so unconvincing and problematic that I started to look for explanations that fitted the evidence better.

As has been pointed out the idea that an Aegon was alive and that he might be a fake has been floating around for some years. The first idea comes from AGOT and the 2nd from ACOK. I do believe that both books were published a little before ADWD, so there have been hints and time for people to digest them.

Why would an Aegon be smuggled to safety? Varys could do it but he didn't believe that Aerys would have the gates opened to Tywin's army.

Why would Aegon vanish rather than escape with Viserys, Ser Willem Darry & Co?

Why was there no rumour of Aegon's survival from the servants, wet nurse, guards, ship's crew who must have accompanied him?

Why would he end up in Illyrio's care when Dany & Viserys don't?

Why isn't a Targaryen court in exile established? If its too dangerous why are Dany and Viserys left together?

Why is every effort made to keep Aegon secret and every effort made to keep Aegon apart from other loyalists who could vouch for him?

Why are Illyrio and Connington relying on the Golden Company, founded by the Blackfyre pretender, dedicated to the restoration of the Blackfyres and those dispossessed for their loyalty to the Blackfyres and who are still carrying the gilded skulls of the Blackfyres to restore a Targaryen heir?

Why would Illyrio spend his money to restore a targaryen to power, but not use his money to support the impovrished dany and Viserys?

Since the intermarriage of the Targaryens is famed why does Illyrio marry Dany to a Dothraki, a barbarian to westerosi eyes, rather than to Aegon?

All of these can be answered of course, but the overall impression is that there is something very odd going on.

Then why is GRRM careful to tell us that the Blackfyres are extinct in the male line? Why does he have Illyrio tell us about his wife, and her hair colour? Why is Illyrio so disappointed that he won't get to see Aegon? Who is Varys, why was he cut (there is power in a King's blood as Melisandre says to Stannis or words to that effect) and why does he keep his head shaved and what is he working for?

Again there are answers for all these but I got the feeling that there is something really fishy going on.

To my mind the easiest, simplest answer is that Aegon is a fake. Most likely of Blackfyre descent via his mother who was Illyrio's wife. Therefore Dany and Viserys were rivals, they needed to be controlled and kept out of the way of the throne.

[Eucratides_Megas]

The matter is ex-Hand Griff is pretty darn certain that "young Griff" is indeed Aegon Targaryen. Griff is a POV character and therefore can not lie.

Methinks that Connington is still so guilt-ridden over the Battle of the Bells and in love with Rhaegar Targaryen he desperately needs some form of redemption. To put Rhaegar's son back on the throne would be just enough reason that Connington would allow himself to believe Aegon is the real deal, and not some half-Pentoshi Blackfyre.

[Wouter]

The Targaryens ruled for another hundred years after their dragons died out. Robert took the throne without dragons, Joffrey and Tommen ruled without dragons.

So why would "Aegon" need dragons?

Because of the Others? Because of the instant credibility boost, especially since dragons are the reason the seven kingdoms exist (in that form) in the first place, and also the reason the Targaryens established themselves to start with? Now Aegon has to re-establish the dynasty, he can't just continue with what he already has, like Aegon III did.

And also, because Dany will have dragons, and anyone pressing a claim against her better either convinces her peacefully to accept that or has to be prepared to fight those dragons (not easy without dragons of your own).

[the Scorpion Knight]

1Why would an Aegon be smuggled to safety? Varys could do it but he didn't believe that Aerys would have the gates opened to Tywin's army.

2Why would Aegon vanish rather than escape with Viserys, Ser Willem Darry & Co?

3Why was there no rumour of Aegon's survival from the servants, wet nurse, guards, ship's crew who must have accompanied him?

4Why would he end up in Illyrio's care when Dany & Viserys don't?

5Why isn't a Targaryen court in exile established? If its too dangerous why are Dany and Viserys left together?

6Why is every effort made to keep Aegon secret and every effort made to keep Aegon apart from other loyalists who could vouch for him?

7Why are Illyrio and Connington relying on the Golden Company, founded by the Blackfyre pretender, dedicated to the restoration of the Blackfyres and those dispossessed for their loyalty to the Blackfyres and who are still carrying the gilded skulls of the Blackfyres to restore a Targaryen heir?

8Why would Illyrio spend his money to restore a targaryen to power, but not use his money to support the impovrished dany and Viserys?

Since the intermarriage of the Targaryens is famed why does Illyrio marry Dany to a Dothraki, a barbarian to westerosi eyes, rather than to Aegon?

1 Considering Robert and Tywin in the equation it was for the safest (Robert was definitivly genocidical in the targeryan matter)

2 I think varys used Dany and viserys as a smoke screen and a lightning rond (dont put all your eggs in one basket)

3 they either left thecity or most surely are dead (killed by tywins men or varyws)

4 as I said earlier don't put all your eggs in one basket

5 Varys didn't want to paint a big target or maybe darry didn't have the money for that

7 first of all the gilded skull is the sigil of the GC and the blackfyres sigil was a black dragon and why not the blackfyres are exctinted in the male line which by targaryen succesion rules leaves makes all their claims null and void as long as a targaryen heir lives and breathes

and the GC are sell sword in pay of a dragon (the exact clour doesn't seem to matter to them a dragon leeds them home)

8 Dany and viserys are sent to Khal drogo TO DIE illyrio said he didn't expect dany to survive the dothraki

IMHO V&I aren't doing it for the money they do it for the fame. (caution crackpot) yep I think its the grand finale of the story of two rogues

[Jem]

The thing that I see as damaging to Illyrios son being Aegon, is that if he is so damn fond of the kid, why raise him to try to take the Iron throne when there is a really good chance the kid will die trying to do so (especially without dragons).

i.e. why were they faking it for so many years before Dany hatched her dragons. His taking the iron throne really didn't stand a chance until the dragons were born. Just seems kinda silly when I think about it, being that unless Varys and Illyrio are greenseers (ooooh new crackpots).

Well Illyrio loved his wife, like looooooved her and was totally devoted to her and he was devastated when she died. The reason I think Illyrio was willing to work so hard to put Aegon on the throne is simply because Serra would have wanted it. She was a prostitute and, assuming she is a Blackfyre, no doubt she was very bitter about her fate and the fate of her family. If Illyrio knew of her obsession with her family's defeat, when the opportunity to put Aegon on the throne emerged, he took it.

Illyrio had the Golden Company lined up for many years with the promise to support Aegon when the time was right. Dragons weren't even part of the equations. No one would even imagine that dragons would ever come into play here. A sellsword company and a very good strategy (ie throw Westeros into as much chaos as possible, thanks to the machinations of Uncle Varys) were all that was needed.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Because of the Others? Because of the instant credibility boost, especially since dragons are the reason the seven kingdoms exist (in that form) in the first place, and also the reason the Targaryens established themselves to start with? Now Aegon has to re-establish the dynasty, he can't just continue with what he already has, like Aegon III did.

And also, because Dany will have dragons, and anyone pressing a claim against her better either convinces her peacefully to accept that or has to be prepared to fight those dragons (not easy without dragons of your own).

Plural? That's funny. I think she — loosely — has one dragon. She can only ride one. Rhaegal and Viserion seem to have set up shop on their own in the pyramids. It shouldn't be taken for granted that whoever masters them will automatically throw in with Dany. The opposite might even be true. We could easily have a Dance of the Dragons, Part Deux, with the damn things fighting each other.

We also might get an answer to the question, "Who matters more? The guy/lady riding the dragon or the guy/lady warging it?"

I don't think dragons are necessary to rule; if they were the Targs would have fallen sooner. The only three known ones are way the hell on the other side of the world. I was just pointing out the silliness of thinking that "Aegon" won't succeed just because he doesn't have dragons.

[Wouter]

Plural? That's funny. I think she — loosely — has one dragon. She can only ride one. Rhaegal and Viserion seem to have set up shop on their own in the pyramids. It shouldn't be taken for granted that whoever masters them will automatically throw in with Dany. The opposite might even be true. We could easily have a Dance of the Dragons, Part Deux, with the damn things fighting each other.

The people facing her dragons probably won't think it terribly funny.

If there was to be a more litteral dance of dragons, I think we would have seen it in the book with that title (a more figurative version with Aegon vs Dany may or may not follow). Tyrion is likely to master at least one of the dragons and also to take Dany's side - at least until they have to face Jaime, if he is still alive by then. I doubt Victarion or Euron will enjoy lasting success and take a dragon or dragons for a significant amount of time.

Technically, Dany already lost Drogon once, to the slavers and then when it flew away not to come back (until it did). Maybe that will be a comfort to any Dothraki it burns alive, though I doubt it.

In the meta-sense, it is very far from silly to think that Aegon won't fail because he lacks dragons while Dany has them (unless he ends up as Dany's chosen heir, maybe). The dragons are not there to enrich the background, they are a crucial part of the story (and viewed as such by the characters, including Stannis and Melisandre for example). That the author has given Dany dragons and Aegon not is a giant sign pointing at who is going to be important for the outcome of the story - even if Aegon may survive her.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The people facing her dragons probably won't think it terribly funny.

I meant, it's funny to assume that she actually has dragons. Sorry I wasn't clearer. Her hold on Drogon is tenuous, but I accept that she has it. As of now, though, she has no control over Rhaegal or Viserion. Frankly I think it'd be hilarious if, up to now, she'd kept saying, "I have dragons!" as a bratty excuse for why she should get what she wants and in the end, not only does she not have dragons, but those dragons are used against her. Hil-AR-ious.

[ARYa_Nym]

I think that GRRM pushed the second Dance of the Dragons to be in one of the last 2 books.

November 22, 2003

Concerning the Dance of the Dragons

Hi, short question. Will we find out more about the Dance of the Dragons in future books?

The first dance or the second?

The second will be the subject of a book. The first will be mentioned from time to time, I'm sure.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Category/C91/P15/

I think it's very possible that some undesirables will ride her dragons like one of the Greyjoys but I don't think that they will last long.

Bloodraven may or may not influence Bran to warg one of the other dragons. So if it has a dragonrider already perhaps a greenseer can take it away.

[Lummel]

1 Considering Robert and Tywin in the equation it was for the safest (Robert was definitivly genocidical in the targeryan matter)

2 I think varys used Dany and viserys as a smoke screen and a lightning rond (dont put all your eggs in one basket)

3 they either left thecity or most surely are dead (killed by tywins men or varyws)

4 as I said earlier don't put all your eggs in one basket

5 Varys didn't want to paint a big target or maybe darry didn't have the money for that

7 first of all the gilded skull is the sigil of the GC and the blackfyres sigil was a black dragon and why not the blackfyres are exctinted in the male line which by targaryen succesion rules leaves makes all their claims null and void as long as a targaryen heir lives and breathes

and the GC are sell sword in pay of a dragon (the exact clour doesn't seem to matter to them a dragon leeds them home)

8 Dany and viserys are sent to Khal drogo TO DIE illyrio said he didn't expect dany to survive the dothraki

IMHO V&I aren't doing it for the money they do it for the fame. (caution crackpot) yep I think its the grand finale of the story of two rogues

The problem with the not putting all the eggs in one basket answer is why if it is safer to keep Aegon apart are Dany and Viserys left together? By the eggs argument they should be split up for safety's sake too. Equally we see as readers that it really isn't all that dangerous, nobody is out to get the Targaryens until Dany becomes pregnant.

The Golden Company don't seem to be fighting for money in this case and they are turning down other contracts - surely this is about homecoming. And the Blackfyres are definitely not forgotten by the Company.

Your final point about Dany being sent to die is a telling one I think. Why would you do that if you were working for a targaryen restoration - that's meant to be Aegon's kinswoman they are sending out to die!

[He of many faces]

Because of the Others? Because of the instant credibility boost, especially since dragons are the reason the seven kingdoms exist (in that form) in the first place, and also the reason the Targaryens established themselves to start with? Now Aegon has to re-establish the dynasty, he can't just continue with what he already has, like Aegon III did.

And also, because Dany will have dragons, and anyone pressing a claim against her better either convinces her peacefully to accept that or has to be prepared to fight those dragons (not easy without dragons of your own).

Is Danny more set on rulin westeros or restoring a targ to their rightfully place? If Danny were to meet a targ with a more legitimate claim to the throne and take him for the real thing would she not be content to back him and live peacefully without the burdens o ruling witch she knows verry well. Westeros would much sooner back a male ruler especially if they know if they Piss him off they have to deal with his aunt and the new black dread. The main problem with this to me is that she has already Been warned not to trust the mummers dragon but how would she know it refers to him. Mayhaps she will find out to late after trustin him or will heed the warning but convince herself or be convinced by others that it is a good move, after all she's only a young girl as she likes to say.

[Kantor]

The problem with the not putting all the eggs in one basket answer is why if it is safer to keep Aegon apart are Dany and Viserys left together? By the eggs argument they should be split up for safety's sake too. Equally we see as readers that it really isn't all that dangerous, nobody is out to get the Targaryens until Dany becomes pregnant.

The Golden Company don't seem to be fighting for money in this case and they are turning down other contracts - surely this is about homecoming. And the Blackfyres are definitely not forgotten by the Company.

Your final point about Dany being sent to die is a telling one I think. Why would you do that if you were working for a targaryen restoration - that's meant to be Aegon's kinswoman they are sending out to die!

The most obvious explanation is that Viserys and the Dothraki were supposed to attack and weaken Westeros, and then Aegon (the actual heir to the throne and the best educated of the three) would arrive with the Golden Company and finish off any resistance, then claim the Iron Throne.

Of course, this plan must have changed many times: when Viserys was killed; when Drogo died; when the dragons were born; when Dany went to Slaver's Bay; when Dany stayed in Meereen; when Aegon turned West and went to Griffin's Roost. I imagine Varys will now get to work on trying to get Daenerys over to Westeros so that she can help Aegon (not that he really needs much help, with Dorne at his back, especially given the fact that he managed to capture Storm's End).

[jarl the climber]

I believe Illryio said that he didn't expect Dany to live for long with the Dothrakis(would die, be killed).Probaly didn't expect her to hatch dragons.Nor did it seem to make a difference what Viserys decided to do, he offered to let him stay with him but he didn't stop him going with the khalasar. So it seem like Dany and Viserys were expendable, Aegon would have abetter claim than either in theory.I think some of the Golden company discuss how the plan keeps changing, first it was supposed to be Visery with 50.000 Dothraki screamers and then Dany with 3 dragons, then Dany with 3 dragons and the army she had raised in Slavers Bay, so they say screw it,Tywin Lannister is dead and we will go with Aegon. Seems like Illryio is trying to protect Aegon in a way he didn't protect the other 2. Dany was expendable but with the dragons and the army she has assembled Varys and Illyrio must now account for her in thier plans.Marriage between her and Aegon would cement his claim to the throne. Probaly a fake, but of Blackfyre lineage, has as much claim as Robert by blood. Could still be a dragonrider. Probaly the mummerer dragon, but Quaithe makes a differation between Lion and Griffon, and mummerers dragon. Could be the mummerers dragon is a reference to the stone dragons of Dragonstone and somebody antimating them(Stannis,Eurane Waters).

[Mman]

The only thing that will be able to prove Aegon legitimate is a dragon. If he gets a dragon the truth doesn't really matter.

[imany]

I meant, it's funny to assume that she actually has dragons. Sorry I wasn't clearer. Her hold on Drogon is tenuous, but I accept that she has it. As of now, though, she has no control over Rhaegal or Viserion. Frankly I think it'd be hilarious if, up to now, she'd kept saying, "I have dragons!" as a bratty excuse for why she should get what she wants and in the end, not only does she not have dragons, but those dragons are used against her. Hil-AR-ious.

This is 100% why I've been waiting for Tyrion to finally get to Dany. I'm pretty sure he is the only one, besides maybe the maesters, who has the vaguest idea how to train them.

Edit: Actually, it's more like 95%, the other 5% is to see how Tyrion would deal with Meereen.

[Reeahlia Sand]

I don't get why Illyrio gave Dany the dragon eggs and then the ships? Why is he helping her if you has been helping Aegon as well? Plus, what is his connection to Westeros? What is he getting out of this?

[Pliskin]

I don't get why Illyrio gave Dany the dragon eggs and then the ships? Why is he helping her if you has been helping Aegon as well? Plus, what is his connection to Westeros? What is he getting out of this?

He gave her the eggs without knowing that she would hatch them.

But when she got the dragons, they decided to help her... because, well, dragons... they changed their plan and decided to marry her to Aegon.

As to his connection to Westeros, many think that his wife Serra was a Blackfyre descendant and that he wants to put his son (Aegon) on the throne. But that's only a theory. What is sure is that he talks about a promise made to someone.

[Reeahlia Sand]

I don't think Aegon is a fake. And even if he is I think the real mystery here is what are Illyrio's and Varys' motives? How can the good of the realm benefit them? It seems as if both have spent a great deal of time and energy scheming, but why? And do you think Littlefinger is in on it?

[thetitansbastard]

I don't think Aegon is a fake. And even if he is I think the real mystery here is what are Illyrio's and Varys' motives? How can the good of the realm benefit them? It seems as if both have spent a great deal of time and energy scheming, but why? And do you think Littlefinger is in on it?

Could Varys mean the Valaryian Freehold when he says "the realm"? No I don't think Littlefinger knows anything about it. As for Aegon being fake, I just can't decide. If he is you would think he has to at least have some Targ blood (Blackfyre?) or Connington would know he's fake or at least be skeptical, which there's no evidence of