Ser Barristan Selmy > Eddard Stark

[Val the Wildling Princess]

Heeeeyyyyy...... Come on now! Take it easy! That's my grandpa you're talking about, sort of....

LOL

[LadyoftheNorth72]

I think the differences in outcomes so far has to do with the differences in the oppositions they have had to cope with.

Ned walked into a situation where sides were chosen, plans were underway, and he was not able to get an idea of the real overall picture before being picked off. The court of the Seven Kingdoms has been alive with the sound of plots and treachery and betrayals and factions for years, and he happened to arrive just as all the major players were starting to put their plans into motion. I think he did his best with the intel he had, but every time he turned around he was being gobsmacked by some new, startling piece of the puzzle. I felt sorriest for him when LF had to call him to the window and point out all the spies watching him, and he was just stunned. He could barely get a mental grip on one issue before another, more confusing one came at him, and he was utterly unequipped to cope. I really hold Robert responsible for most of it, because he knew what he was dragging Ned into, gave Ned no clues, and knew Ned was ill equipped to hold his own against it.

In Meereen, the chaos is relatively new. There are a few factions formed but they are obviouly ill organized and not working together; most of them cannot even agree what they are working FOR. There has been no time yet for the people who are both capable and goal oriented to come up with any specific ploys or plans, and they do not know enough about these odd Westerners they are up against (for example, whose batty idea was it to have only one guard - and that a pit fighter - guarding Hizdahr against the likes of Barristan? They see only an old man, not a swordfighter who can - and has - killed people quite easily with a stick). Selmy has been underestimated due to his age and a certain amount of classist snobbery ("no way this Westerosi barbarian could outsmart or outfight any of us") and therefore largely ignored, and free to move. Ned's every move was watched and planned for from the moment he arrived in KL.

I think it remains to be seen how well Barristan will hold Meereen now that they have gotten a taste of what he and his fellow psychotic Westermen (releasing the dragons, holy crap what is wrong ith these people) are capable of. The resistence to him may consolidate somewhat and increase. Before this, the Meereenese have seemed to just sort of sit in their individual pyramids, making their individual plans. Now they will have to stand together somehow, or find themselves taken down one by one.

To me, the biggest difference is that I am not positive Ned would have improved much at the game, given a lot more time. His mind simply did not work like those of the various factions in KL and I am not sure it ever would have. This in and of itself speaks well of him and his honor and honesty, but it does not do much for his chances of survival. Honor and a clipped coin will get you a bowl of Singer's Stew in KL, but not much else.

[Hear Us Roar]

No.

Selmy has been in King Landings court since he was a a teenager, he knows how to rule, he has seen it and is not out of his element in the least. He is reluctant of course but he knows what he is doing. Stark however is not a man of the court in the least.

[thor1215]

Yes, Barristan is a better fighter and politician than Ned Stark would ever be. I'll even say he is a better strategist. Ned's clever ploy to remove Lannister power after Robert's death was to present Robert's letter as the truth. He had no understanding how unimportant the truth is to the Lannisters.

All of that said, Ned was more honorable than Barristan. Ned would never of deceived someone to learn more about them. He would not mask his identity, nor would he devalue any one's life. The only 2 dishonorable that we think Ned Stark did was Jon Snow and claiming to plan to over throw King Robert's rule.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Barristan may be better in the courtly arena, but him being more honorable than Ned Stark? The guy is more honorable than the Kingslayer - barely. But comparing him to Ned Stark is laughable. Ned hasn't spit on his knightly vows and vows as a Kingsguard again and again.

[stonygirl]

How did Barristan spit on his vows?

He served in the Kingsguard from the time he was given the white cloak until Cersi dismissed him. When Robert decided not to kill him and let him keep his post, it wasn't like Barristan had some third option of leaving the Kingsguard.

And when he is dismissed, the first thing he does is go and serve another rightful heir to the throne.

I think he takes his Kingsguard vows very seriously, and that's why he is waiting on his Queen to return to Mereen...otherwise wouldn't he have bailed Mereen when Dany flew off.

[Frey Pie]

Did not Selmy side with Ned when they were deciding whether to kill Dany? Seems to me theyre very alike other then in education terms. Both tough and honourable. Both swallowed their honour at least once(Sansas beatings and Neds false admittance of treason). Both good warriors-selmy better. Both good commanders-ned better. But Ned grew up in the north and the vale-2of the more innocent regions when talking about the game. Barristan picked up alot guarding his kings-especially how not to rule. and as a member of the small council was one of the de facto rulers of westeros for many years when robert couldnt be bothered. Those are the only differences to my mind

[Lord Barristan]

Did not Selmy side with Ned when they were deciding whether to kill Dany? Seems to me theyre very alike other then in education terms. Both tough and honourable. Both swallowed their honour at least once(Sansas beatings and Neds false admittance of treason). Both good warriors-selmy better. Both good commanders-ned better. But Ned grew up in the north and the vale-2of the more innocent regions when talking about the game. Barristan picked up alot guarding his kings-especially how not to rule. and as a member of the small council was one of the de facto rulers of westeros for many years when robert couldnt be bothered. Those are the only differences to my mind

Ser Barristan never beat Sansa, that all happened after he left

[Bright Blue Eyes]

How did Barristan spit on his vows?

He served in the Kingsguard from the time he was given the white cloak until Cersi dismissed him. When Robert decided not to kill him and let him keep his post, it wasn't like Barristan had some third option of leaving the Kingsguard.

And when he is dismissed, the first thing he does is go and serve another rightful heir to the throne.

I think he takes his Kingsguard vows very seriously, and that's why he is waiting on his Queen to return to Mereen...otherwise wouldn't he have bailed Mereen when Dany flew off.

- Aerys burning Rickard and strangling Brandon Stark => defend justice and protect the innocent

- Aerys raping Rhaella several times very violently => again the innocent

- accepting Roberts pardon => serve your king until you are dead, not till he is dead. Viserys was his lawful king as far as he knew

- betraying Ned Stark => obedience to the king. Robert made Ned Lord Regent till Joffrey came of age, thus Ned was the guy to be obedient towards.

- betraying Joffrey and going to Dany after he was dismissed => He had accepted him as king, therefore it was treason.

Yes yes, conflicting oaths and all that, but in that cases he chooses the easy one to adhere to, not the moral one. Unlike Jaime when he killed Aerys

[stonygirl]

- Aerys burning Rickard and strangling Brandon Stark => defend justice and protect the innocent

- Aerys raping Rhaella several times very violently => again the innocent

- accepting Roberts pardon => serve your king until you are dead, not till he is dead. Viserys was his lawful king as far as he knew

- betraying Ned Stark => obedience to the king. Robert made Ned Lord Regent till Joffrey came of age, thus Ned was the guy to be obedient towards.

- betraying Joffrey and going to Dany after he was dismissed => He had accepted him as king, therefore it was treason.

Yes yes, conflicting oaths and all that, but in that cases he chooses the easy one to adhere to, not the moral one. Unlike Jaime when he killed Aerys

So you would put the Kingslayer, a man in an incestuous relationship who threw a child from a window above a man who kept the oath he swore to protect his king?

I would think the Kingsguard oath to protect your king would supersede the knightly vows to defend justice and protect the innocent.

Justice and innocence depend on perspective. From Aerys perspective, the Starks were dangerous rebels threatening to kill his son.

[Lummel]

Selmy seems to be struggling in Meereen. Dany's translator/scribe seems to be far more acute in her understanding of the situation than Barristan is.

Where is the honour in giving up your moral judgement in favour of obedience to the king? Can such service be honourable in theory let alone in practise? This is the question that we see Jaime turning over in his mind in ASOS and AFFC as he remembers Aerys. As Selmy says the scales fell from his eyes only when Joffrey ordered his retirement.

[Damar]

Selmy has been tainted by being an accomplice to murder and rape and hiding behind his kingsoath so I place him in the category as the Hound and Jaime. I don't depise Jaime for breaking his oath, but for doing it at a time when it was most convenient for him and his family with no fear of inmediate reprisal.

[LadyMary]

So I was thinking about Dance and its frustrating parts, and then I remember how awesome Ser Barristan Selmy is.

While Ned Stark was out of his depths in Kings Landing, killed by the order of a boy king and out smarted by Cersei and Littlefinger and even Janos Slynt amongst others,

Ser Barristan is in a foreign country a world away from his home.

His Queen has abandoned him. He tries to save her from Drogon, but she flies away on him leaving him with a bunch of people who's names you can't keep straight and others who wear animal masks. He basically rules the city and council as the Queen's Hand even though he has no love for and little knowledge of politics, and even less knowledge of Meereen than Ned had of King's Landing

All the while, the Harpy is murdering people, the bloody flux infecting everyone, some idiot dornishmen is letting dragons lose, the yunkai preparing to fling hostages into the city and to bring war, the qartheen are coming up slaver's bay, and despite all this craziness he goes and kills a crazy pit fighter twice his size and half his age and captures the king, which gives him and Shavepate the city before the war is about to break out. He is also training a bunch of misfits and lambmen into being knights.

Then, you need to take into account all the other awesome things he has done in his life such as killing the last Blackfyre pretender, rescuing Aerys at the Defiance of Duskendale, winner of many tournaments, killing the gold cloaks Joffrey sent after him unarmed, killing the Titan's Bastard with just a staff, climbing through a sewer to help sack Meereen

Not saying Ned isn't a good guy, but man Barristan is just as honorable, ten times smarter, and a much better fighter.

I think both Ned and Selmy were honorable in their own ways. Ned harbors no ill will for Selmy despite the fact that Selmy served Aerys who murdered his father and brother in horrifying ways, and Selmy was apparently present when Aerys committed some of his worst atrocities and did nothing to stop it. "Doing his duty" meant that Selmy let Aerys do his worst without impediment.

Selmy may resent the "Stark" that dishonored Ashara at Harrenhal, but he defends Ned's honor to Daenerys.

[Great Dayne]

I first want to state that I like Barristan Selmy. He is one of my favorite characters. That being said, you cannot compare him with Ned. Complete different men and/or circumstances. As much as I like Barristan the Bold, he would still be serving Joffrey if he wasn't forced to retire.

He served three kings and one queen. Two of those Kings were killed when he was a KG and the third fired him. He only went to the Queen because he had no other option. I do not see Ned Stark doing this. He would have went down with Aerys/Rhaegar.

Again I like Barristan and he is an honorable bad ass, however I can't compare him with Ned. One is not better than the other.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

So you would put the Kingslayer, a man in an incestuous relationship who threw a child from a window above a man who kept the oath he swore to protect his king?

Did I say so? The bolded part is the reason why I put Barristan above Jaime, but only barely.

[Sun]

Sir Barristan Selmy does indeed have all the qualities listed in the OP, and he did do many good, even great things. But, you knew there was a but coming :P - though I respect his skills, I have no particular admiration for him as a man.

Barristan served in the Kings Guard under Jaehaerys II, then under Aerys II (by all accounts a deranged monster in his final years). When Aerys Targaryan was deposed he continued his serves under Robert Baratheon, and would have been more than happy to serve a monster like Jeoffery, despite his murder of Ned, had Jeoffery not injured his pride by turning him out to pasture in favour of the Hound. Now he's back serving house Targaeryan under Daenerys. Barristan's only loyalty, it seems to me, is to the service. It doesn't really matter what monster he serves, just as long as he can serve. His service to a greater other defines him and he clings to it, regardless of who or what that greater other is. He doesn't trouble himself to judge those he serves, or take an independent moral stand of his own - yes, he confronted Aerys about his plan to burn the city, but what happened after. Did he make any moves to stop Aerys?. Also, he said that he would never have served Robert had Robert smiled when presented with the bodies of the children, but Robert didn't punish the murderers, if fact he kept Tywin Lannister in his service and married his daughter, yet still Barristan served him, which I find hard to understand.

Selmy follows order and keeps his oaths, no matter what. I, personally, have trouble with people like that. People who abdicate their own moral judgement in favour of another's in the name of honor and service. I'm not saying he's a bad man, on the contrary he's obviously good, but not one that I would find particularly admirable.

Ned has his faults as well, but I see no need to rate them against Barristan's. They are both men of quality, both flawed.

[Lost Umber]

Barristan has't done anything yet other than serve. Sure he's great at following orders. He's honorable and a great fighter but he hasn't had to make too many grand decisions. And let's face it... King's keep dying on his watch.

Ned led a great House and lost out in the viper's pit of King's Landing. Does anyone really think Barristan would have done any better? Well... he didn't. He lost his white cloak and had to hightail it out of the city. If he and Ned were allied then they might have been able to protect eachother but I doubt it. They are both straightforward and not good at plots and schemes.

Barriston is starting to make some decisions now... let's see how it plays out. I suspect he's due for a knife in the back before the end.

[Evamitchelle]

I think Renly's comment describes him best :

""I know that old man. He needs a king to guard, or who is he? " (Catelyn IV, ACoK).

[Corvinus85]

I just started a re-read of ADWD, and I have a question about Barristan which I had on my first read, but never asked:

How come he can communicate with the Ghiscari? Sure, maybe he was educated in the Valyrian language, and even if not, he might have started learning after he left KL; but he seems to understand, and I think even speak, Ghiscari. Where is that coming from? Is he that talented at languages that he can pick up any just on a fly?

[Candor]

Sir Barristan Selmy does indeed have all the qualities listed in the OP, and he did do many good, even great things. But, you knew there was a but coming :P - though I respect his skills, I have no particular admiration for him as a man.

Barristan served in the Kings Guard under Jaehaerys II, then under Aerys II (by all accounts a deranged monster in his final years). When Aerys Targaryan was deposed he continued his serves under Robert Baratheon, and would have been more than happy to serve a monster like Jeoffery, despite his murder of Ned, had Jeoffery not injured his pride by turning him out to pasture in favour of the Hound. Now he's back serving house Targaeryan under Daenerys. Barristan's only loyalty, it seems to me, is to the service. It doesn't really matter what monster he serves, just as long as he can serve. His service to a greater other defines him and he clings to it, regardless of who or what that greater other is. He doesn't trouble himself to judge those he serves, or take an independent moral stand of his own - yes, he confronted Aerys about his plan to burn the city, but what happened after. Did he make any moves to stop Aerys?. Also, he said that he would never have served Robert had Robert smiled when presented with the bodies of the children, but Robert didn't punish the murderers, if fact he kept Tywin Lannister in his service and married his daughter, yet still Barristan served him, which I find hard to understand.

Selmy follows order and keeps his oaths, no matter what. I, personally, have trouble with people like that. People who abdicate their own moral judgement in favour of another's in the name of honor and service. I'm not saying he's a bad man, on the contrary he's obviously good, but not one that I would find particularly admirable.

Ned has his faults as well, but I see no need to rate them against Barristan's. They are both men of quality, both flawed.

Ser Barristan reminds me of Titus Andronicus (from the Shakespearean play) in this way.