The Official Appreciation Thread for Sansa, Queen in the North v. 2

[littlespider]

Thanks for pointing out this oft-overlooked passage, Lemoncake.

His murder of Shae is awful; we should remember that while he commits despicable acts, the commission of these acts does not simultaneously mean that he is incapable of saying, thinking, or doing decent, and even virtuous things. My saying this does not condone in any way his despicable acts.

The murder of Shae was despicable because Shae was an innocent. He is not capable of realizing this fact, unless we see a major epiphany at some time in the future. (I am not holding my breath for that.)

On a happier note, it is due to the heavy influence of Sansa's classy culinary taste that I am eating lemoncakes for lunch.

And re: Shae. My shields are up in preparation for incoming nukes.

[Raksha the Demon]

Do you think Tyrion, whatever bitterness he feels toward her, may still feel some obligation to protect Sansa simply because she's still his wife? There's this passage in ASoS, during his trial:

Maybe I'm just being spectacularly naive, but things like this give me hope that when/if the time comes, Tyrion will give her a relatively amicable annulment, and in the meantime won't go out of his way to make her life hell.

But then I remember that this is the same guy who murdered Shae because he felt betrayed by her, and I wonder why I'm kidding myself...

Tyrion's defense of Sansa, despite his suspicion of her possibly poisoning Joffrey and framing him for the crime, was admirable. Unfortunately, that was before he went postal and murdered Shae and Tywin, an act that has flung him over to the Dark Side. I am not at all sure that were Tyrion to meet Sansa again, he would behave so honorably; especially since she will be older, looking more like a young woman instead of a barely pubescent little girl who inspired an instinct to protect (as well as, disturbingly, an instinct to bed) in Tyrion. I don't know that he would believe Sansa if she explained that she really did help poison Joffrey and then leave him in the lurch framed for the murder but it was all Littlefinger's fault. We'll have to see...

[Raksha the Demon]

Thanks for pointing out this oft-overlooked passage, Lemoncake.

His murder of Shae is awful; we should remember that while he commits despicable acts, the commission of these acts does not simultaneously mean that he is incapable of saying, thinking, or doing decent, and even virtuous things. My saying this does not condone in any way his despicable acts.

The murder of Shae was despicable because Shae was an innocent. He is not capable of realizing this fact, unless we see a major epiphany at some time in the future. (I am not holding my breath for that.)

On a happier note, it is due to the heavy influence of Sansa's classy culinary taste that I am eating lemoncakes for lunch.

And re: Shae. My shields are up in preparation for incoming nukes.

Shae was not an innocent; but I don't believe that perjury warrants the death penalty - but what is the penalty for false witness in Westeros, does anyone know?

Yes, the trouble with Tyrion as a character is that he was originally an honorable, noble character with a few troubling instincts/attitudes held mostly in check, and then he went downhill. Tyrion is a lot more menacing in ADWD, and he still manages to help out Penny; which is not in his self-interest to do; someone like Cersei or Tywin would have just killed her back at the inn after Penny tried to kill him...He's not gone Totally Tywin, but he is on his way.

[Lemon Cake]

Unfortunately, that was before he went postal and murdered Shae and Tywin, an act that has flung him over to the Dark Side.

Yes, absolutely. That was something I meant to include in my other post, but then forgot to do it (I got distracted by something shiny, I guess, Idk). I do think it's significant that he took this attitude to protecting Sansa before Shae testified against him and he went off the deep end by killing her and Tywin. I'm not sure the Tyrion of ADwD would feel the same way.

[Alexia]

we should remember that while he commits despicable acts, the commission of these acts does not simultaneously mean that he is incapable of saying, thinking, or doing decent, and even virtuous things.

Oh I agree with this. I only hasten to point out the many things he does wrong because many (not all) of his fans try to paint him in a light of being a chivalrous misunderstood woobie. Like the gentleman who said that Tyrion would make a great husband. ;)

Agreed with you about Shae. She was the bone that got caught between two dogs, and she paid the price for it.

I am not at all sure that were Tyrion to meet Sansa again, he would behave so honorably; especially since she will be older, looking more like a young woman instead of a barely pubescent little girl who inspired an instinct to protect (as well as, disturbingly, an instinct to bed) in Tyrion. I don't know that he would believe Sansa if she explained that she really did help poison Joffrey and then leave him in the lurch framed for the murder but it was all Littlefinger's fault. We'll have to see...

For some reason, I personally don't think that Tyrion and Sansa will ever meet again. I think Tyrion's arc will lead him towards Cersei and Casterly Rock and that he will die in the end. I could be wrong, of course, but I just don't see him ever interacting with Sansa again. I don't think he even intends to seek her out.

[littlespider]

Shae was not an innocent; but I don't believe that perjury warrants the death penalty - but what is the penalty for false witness in Westeros, does anyone know?

Do we actually have any indication at all that perjury -- a term appropriate to 21st century judicial practice, and Judeo-Christian ethics -- is considered a crime in Westeros? Do they even have time to worry about it?

Was Shae ethical? No. Was she innocent? Yes. Do we know anything about her interactions with the Lannisters over the essential purchasing of her as a witness in exchange for gold/land or whatever? No. Do we know that the Lannisters -- Tywin and Cersei especially -- are absolutely capable of exacting brutality in exchange for what they want? Yes. (I use the word purchasing for a reason: Shae was always treated as a commodity by the higher ups in the class, social, and gender hierarchy.)

[littlespider]

Oh I agree with this. I only hasten to point out the many things he does wrong because many (not all) of his fans try to paint him in a light of being a chivalrous misunderstood woobie. Like the gentleman who said that Tyrion would make a great husband. ;)

Tyrion would make a great husband only if he came with ball gag and a never-ending supply of duct tape. But, then I have a dwarf fetish. I would also milk him for his money. Fuuuuuuck, I have to stop trolling the sexist posters today.

But seriously, I think that he's one of the most complex characters in the books. And while his chapters in DwD were not pleasant, Martin's mapping of Tyrion's gradual anesthetization of his own conscience* was brilliant. This is a conscience that's feebly kicking at the very end of SoS. And Tyrion strangles it when he strangles Shae. We see shadows of it in DwD, but it's almost completely eclipsed by this apathy that's also invested in performing the monstrosity that everybody has ascribed to him up to that point.

*I came up with this phrase the other day and am rather proud of it. I are so smart!

For some reason, I personally don't think that Tyrion and Sansa will ever meet again. I think Tyrion's arc will lead him towards Cersei and Casterly Rock and that he will die in the end. I could be wrong, of course, but I just don't see him ever interacting with Sansa again. I don't think he even intends to seek her out.

I hope that the only reason he willingly tries to find her is to seek an annulment; a last attempt to make things right. Same as Sandor shtick: I hope that he seeks her out to try to make things right. These two "monsters" are mirrors of each other. Perhaps Sandor is growing a seed of conscience. Tyrion is smothering his own. These reverse processes appear to be happening in the midst of a tremendous amount of psychological pain. And Sansa, I think, is a catalyst for both of them.

Meanwhile, I have a perverse interest in seeing a Stark/Lannister alliance in future books.

[Alexia]

But seriously, I think that he's one of the most complex characters in the books. And while his chapters in DwD were not pleasant, Martin's mapping of Tyrion's gradual anesthetization of his own conscience* was brilliant. This is a conscience that's feebly kicking at the very end of SoS. And Tyrion strangles it when he strangles Shae. We see shadows of it in DwD, but it's almost completely eclipsed by this apathy that's also invested in performing the monstrosity that everybody has ascribed to him up to that point.

Fuck yeah, this! Tyrion is pure genius on GRRM's part. I really think that he's going to end up as the penultimate villain of the series after he betrays Dany in some way (in response to her sexual rejection) and steals her dragon. And its all been carefully choreographed since AGOT -- but I for one didn't see it coming.

Meanwhile, I have a perverse interest in seeing a Stark/Lannister alliance in future books.

Meh. The plotline I want to see is the Stark and Targaryen kids teaming up and throwing a wrecking beam at House Lannister in revenge. They all need to go.

Fortunately, the fair and gracious Lady Stoneheart has gotten a headstart on this... farewell, dear Jaime.

And I do think there's something to be said for the idea that the family implodes as a result of Tywin's legacy. You see this happening through Tywin's death, through Kevan's revenge on Cersei, et cetera.

[headtrip_honey]

Fuck yeah, this! Tyrion is pure genius on GRRM's part. I really think that he's going to end up as the penultimate villain of the series after he betrays Dany in some way (in response to her sexual rejection) and steals her dragon. And its all been carefully choreographed since AGOT -- but I for one didn't see it coming.

Meh. The plotline I want to see is the Stark and Targaryen kids teaming up and throwing a wrecking beam at House Lannister in revenge. They all need to go.

Fortunately, the fair and gracious Lady Stoneheart has gotten a headstart on this... farewell, dear Jaime.

And I do think there's something to be said for the idea that the family implodes as a result of Tywin's legacy. You see this happening through Tywin's death, through Kevan's revenge on Cersei, et cetera.

You know how I feel about this so I'll not repeat it...

Anyway, I really really really hope that Myrcella and/or Tommen survive. i love those kids so much i just want to give them hugs and kittens and play cyvasse with them forever

[Trinuviel]

Anyway, I really really really hope that Myrcella and/or Tommen survive. i love those kids so much i just want to give them hugs and kittens and play cyvasse with them forever

Me too though I fear they will bite the dust. I find it quite telling that they're both very engaging children, very unlike their brother. Joffrey does really seem to be a product of Cersei's lamentable parenting skills - she just focused all her attention on her first-born. It is ironic that her two younger children seems to have benefitted from a lack of parental attention.

In general, these books argue for nurture over nature, which is why I believe that neither Sansa, Arya nor Bran will turn evil - despite their faults, Ned and Catelyn were good parents. Bad, or at best ineffectual parenting is recurring theme in these books, which makes me wonder about the Clegane household (apart from Gregor's general freakishness). I suppose we'll never know but it does give food for thought.

[Miryana]

Meanwhile, I have a perverse interest in seeing a Stark/Lannister alliance in future books.

In a different universe, Robb/Myrcella could have been the happier alternative to Sansa/Joffrey - Ned could have turned down the handship and offered the Robb marriage to soothe Robert's anger. But as things are now, I don't see any alliance taking place beyond a potential Tyrion + dragonrider Stark/Snow co-operation. (Though after all the years of speculation it would be rather hilarious, and satisfying to me, if Tyrion only ended up teaching Dany how to train her dragons instead of getting to ride one - even though both he and Dany disappointed me in their own ways in ADWD, in any conflict between the two I'd root for her.)

And I do think there's something to be said for the idea that the family implodes as a result of Tywin's legacy. You see this happening through Tywin's death, through Kevan's revenge on Cersei, et cetera.

I hope Sansa gets a grand moment in TWOW in which she crushes Littlefinger's illusions by proclaiming that she's the daughter of Ned Stark even as she destroys all his remaining dreams of power. While Ned and Cat might have done more to try to prepare the girls for the uglier realities of life, they're still as good a set of parents as you get in ASOIAF; even though the Stark children are apart they still feel like a family, unlike the Lannisters in their present state of meltdown.

[Grail King]

Oh I agree with this. I only hasten to point out the many things he does wrong because many (not all) of his fans try to paint him in a light of being a chivalrous misunderstood woobie. Like the gentleman who said that Tyrion would make a great husband. ;)

Agreed with you about Shae. She was the bone that got caught between two dogs, and she paid the price for it.

For some reason, I personally don't think that Tyrion and Sansa will ever meet again. I think Tyrion's arc will lead him towards Cersei and Casterly Rock and that he will die in the end. I could be wrong, of course, but I just don't see him ever interacting with Sansa again. I don't think he even intends to seek her out.

Per chance that Tyrion and Sansa meet and talk assuming Sansa doesn't have all the puzzle parts in place she mentions to Tyrion about the net etc he adds 2+2 gets 4 and they conspire to kill LF, and QOT.

[Grail King]

Tyrion would make a great husband only if he came with ball gag and a never-ending supply of duct tape. But, then I have a dwarf fetish. I would also milk him for his money. Fuuuuuuck, I have to stop trolling the sexist posters today.

But seriously, I think that he's one of the most complex characters in the books. And while his chapters in DwD were not pleasant, Martin's mapping of Tyrion's gradual anesthetization of his own conscience* was brilliant. This is a conscience that's feebly kicking at the very end of SoS. And Tyrion strangles it when he strangles Shae. We see shadows of it in DwD, but it's almost completely eclipsed by this apathy that's also invested in performing the monstrosity that everybody has ascribed to him up to that point.

*I came up with this phrase the other day and am rather proud of it. I are so smart!

I hope that the only reason he willingly tries to find her is to seek an annulment; a last attempt to make things right. Same as Sandor shtick: I hope that he seeks her out to try to make things right. These two "monsters" are mirrors of each other. Perhaps Sandor is growing a seed of conscience. Tyrion is smothering his own. These reverse processes appear to be happening in the midst of a tremendous amount of psychological pain. And Sansa, I think, is a catalyst for both of them.

Meanwhile, I have a perverse interest in seeing a Stark/Lannister alliance in future books.

This is soooooooo wrong.

[1234567]

I can see Tyrion and Sansa meeting again, but if he finds out that she had nothing to do with Joff's death, then Tyrion will be faced with the fact that it was him and her "mockery of a marriage" she was running away from.

[Candor]

Shae was not an innocent; but I don't believe that perjury warrants the death penalty - but what is the penalty for false witness in Westeros, does anyone know?

Usually a lordship, it seems!

[the Scorpion Knight]

Shae was not an innocent; but I don't believe that perjury warrants the death penalty - but what is the penalty for false witness in Westeros, does anyone know?

considering that case specially it seems the same as treason (ohh would I want to see cerseis face when the truth comes out )

[littlespider]

I can see Tyrion and Sansa meeting again, but if he finds out that she had nothing to do with Joff's death, then Tyrion will be faced with the fact that it was him and her "mockery of a marriage" she was running away from.

But it wasn't just her mockery of a marriage: it was that and the ongoing brutality she suffered at the hands of the Lannister clan as a whole. Remember that the escape plan started at the beginning of CoK.

This is soooooooo wrong.

I told you it was perverse. I'm the anti-binary, anti-black/white, anti-hero/villain, anti-symmetry reader. For the Lannisters to "get what's coming to them" seems "meh" to me.

Fuck yeah, this! Tyrion is pure genius on GRRM's part. I really think that he's going to end up as the penultimate villain of the series after he betrays Dany in some way (in response to her sexual rejection) and steals her dragon. And its all been carefully choreographed since AGOT -- but I for one didn't see it coming.

Yeah, if I believed in there being a villain in this story, Tyrion would be a marvelously constructed one. I can't wait to see his interaction with Dany.

Tyion: So, uh, you look nice in your Quartheen dress.

Dany: *side-eye* Bitch, please

*dwarf-slap*

Barristan might even crack a smile.

If he does steal a dragon, though, he is going to need his special saddle.

Fortunately, the fair and gracious Lady Stoneheart has gotten a headstart on this... farewell, dear Jaime.

I was reminded of Jacob and Esau the other day. Jaime'll be with us for a bit longer. He'll be worse for the wear, though, when we see him next.

And I do think there's something to be said for the idea that the family implodes as a result of Tywin's legacy. You see this happening through Tywin's death, through Kevan's revenge on Cersei, et cetera.

If the Lannisters do splinter into nothing, I definitely think this is how it will happen.

[Flightless bird]

I think Tyrion is set on finding out, "Where do whores go?"...... In ADWD, he didn't really seem that bothered about Sansa, she was his excuse for escaping Penny.

A small part of me hopes he finds Tysha, that would be an interesting chapter!

[headtrip_honey]

I think Tyrion is set on finding out, "Where do whores go?"...... In ADWD, he didn't really seem that bothered about Sansa, she was his excuse for escaping Penny.

A small part of me hopes he finds Tysha, that would be an interesting chapter!

If he does I hope she punches him or at the very least tells him to GTFO.

[Candor]

1.But it wasn't just her mockery of a marriage: it was that and the ongoing brutality she suffered at the hands of the Lannister clan as a whole. Remember that the escape plan started at the beginning of CoK.

2.I told you it was perverse. I'm the anti-binary, anti-black/white, anti-hero/villain, anti-symmetry reader. For the Lannisters to "get what's coming to them" seems "meh" to me.

1. Exactly. Sansa had a lot be getting away from. Physical/emotional/mental abuse. Fear of impending sexual abuse from her husband, the unhappiness of that marriage. Prior to Joff's death she also had to worry about him abusing her in a such a way too and making her bear his bastards... General bad treatment and daily humiliation... hell the girl couldn't even grieve properly for her whole family, who btw she believes is dead - sure to be uplifting!

2. I think I'm the same way. :dunno: