[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I, Part 4

[Jory]

Stannis is almost definitely going to win this battle that's coming against the Frey/Manderly/Ramsay Trifecta of Stupidity. This is an argument that I've never seen proven wrong: Stannis has some sort of secret plan he's going to use to defeat the incoming army. We, the readers, have no idea what it is. Therefore, it is going to work. For examples of the opposite, when there's a badass plan that is explained in intricate detail and is met with defeat or putters out into nothing, see:

1) Robb's re-invasion of the North

2) Sandor taking Arya to Catelyn

3) Quentyn taming the dragon

4) Tywin sending Cersei back to Casterly Rock

5) Varmyr trying to warg into the chick

6) Arianne crowning Myrcella

7) Theon joining the Night's Watch

There are actually more, if you can believe that. Martin does it so much it's almost become predictable.

[Ghost714]

Stannis is almost definitely going to win this battle that's coming against the Frey/Manderly/Ramsay Trifecta of Stupidity. This is an argument that I've never seen proven wrong: Stannis has some sort of secret plan he's going to use to defeat the incoming army. We, the readers, have no idea what it is. Therefore, it is going to work. For examples of the opposite, when there's a badass plan that is explained in intricate detail and is met with defeat or putters out into nothing, see:

1) Robb's re-invasion of the North

2) Sandor taking Arya to Catelyn

3) Quentyn taming the dragon

4) Tywin sending Cersei back to Casterly Rock

5) Varmyr trying to warg into the chick

6) Arianne crowning Myrcella

7) Theon joining the Night's Watch

There are actually more, if you can believe that. Martin does it so much it's almost become predictable.

I agree, Bolton's are expecting the Karstark's to be on there side, Roose doesn't know, that Stannis knows, that Karstark turned his cloak. Also Bolton's are expecting Manderly forces to be on their side, but Manderly will hopefully put the "pointy end", right into the back of the Freys. Not to mention, it sounds like Mors Crowfood Umber did a pretty good job at kicking some ass, considering Umber has only a bunch of greenboys, and they were seriously outnumbered. I personally think Stannis is going to, some how trick the Bolton army onto the Ice lake, thus Boltons falling into a trap, by somehow falling through the Ice.

In conclusion, after the gift chapter, I am confident without a doubt that Stannis will when this battle.

[iamthedave]

Who would of thought the Pale Mare, in Dany's prophecy, would be the plague?

Anyone who's read the same books as Martin I think :D

I've heard that metaphor used for plagues many times. It could be a British thing. They're associated with death and Death in the Bible rides a pale horse... well, the metaphor builds itself from thereon out.

[iamthedave]

-double-

[Lady Octarina]

Getting back to Theon, I want to repeat something about Theon I just wrote on another thread. I think Stannis will use one of the crows he has to send a message to Ramsay saying he has been massively defeated, triggering the Ramsay letter to Jon. When he finds out his chosen Stark heir has been fatally or near fatally stabbed, he'll be royally pissed off (pun intended!) and goaded by Theon's sister, will drag Theon off to the weirwood for execution.

He will then be told by the tree (what else could do so?) that Bran and Rickon are alive and that Theon is not to be killed, because Theon has more to do. I take that point of view because it doesn't seem to me that Theon's story is done yet - his survival so far seems a pretty clear indicator of that. Theon may well end up dead meat, but not just yet. Bran, of course, is speaking through the tree.

I like your theory, the only problem I see in it is, well... Stannis is not exactly a believer. I don't think merely the tree talking to him would be enough to stop him killing Theon - not to mention that it would take massive convincing to get the Northmen to postpone Theon's execution. If Bran and Bloodraven have the power for that, I bet it's going to be something much greater than a tree talking to our rightful King. But it can't be too great either, otherwise it'll be too cheesy.

[slayer420]

I like your theory, the only problem I see in it is, well... Stannis is not exactly a believer. I don't think merely the tree talking to him would be enough to stop him killing Theon - not to mention that it would take massive convincing to get the Northmen to postpone Theon's execution. If Bran and Bloodraven have the power for that, I bet it's going to be something much greater than a tree talking to our rightful King. But it can't be too great either, otherwise it'll be too cheesy.

I think your underestimating the power of bran and the old gods to the north. If the tree talks to the them when Theo is to be executed and I am shore Stannis would have northerners there to see Theo killed. I think any northman there would except that without question. Remember this is there gods we are talking about. None of them have ever been talked to by there god. Stannis would have to follow there wish's. Even though he does not follow the old gods, hearing them talk to him might make him question what he believes in.

[Lady Octarina]

Yes, but the problem is that, so far, their talking to people in weirwoods has been more like the rustle of leaves than actual words being pronounced. I always got the impression it was more like suggesting something to their conscience, which is why both Eddard and Theon, when hearing their names, thought it was the wind, or that they imagined it. I'm not saying it's impossible they get to communicate this way and convince them, only it's highly unlikely, and even in that world people tend to dismiss as products of their imagination things they can't explain.

[slayer420]

Your forgetting that magic keeps getting stronger thru the books. Look at each book and the magic involved. Ever book we see more and more magic and I think this will keep happening. I have noticed on here that allot of people underestimate the powers of magic in the books. Just because something has not happened yet does not mean its not possible. I think that Theo will die and his blood will allow the tree to talk to everyone there. I could see it going the other way though. I could see a murder of crows arriving right before Theo is to be killed chanting the same words. bran alive don't kill over and over. There are many ways this could go. I do believe something very magical is going to happen at that tree though

[Arkash]

Everybody believes in the Ice-Lake trap, and I do too, and honestly, I cant wait to read this scene !

I wonder via who will we see it ?

Theon ? Asha ? .....

[Lady Octarina]

Yeah, I know, I'm not saying it's impossible, only unlikely. For instance, Bran talked to Theon (or rather, just said his name) while he was in Winterfell, what? A couple of weeks before meeting Stannis? But of course, Bran was probably not using all his power there, and with Bloodraven's help I assume he can do much more. What I find nearly impossible is that they will fully communicate with them, like sentences. But I like this ideas of a bunch of ravens gathering in a tree and exclaiming something like "Theon" or "Stop" over and over until they decide not to execute him - THAT is not beyond Bran's power, and it could be enough to convince the Northmen not to kill him.

[slayer420]

Everybody believes in the Ice-Lake trap, and I do too, and honestly, I cant wait to read this scene !

I wonder via who will we see it ?

Theon ? Asha ? .....

yea I think this is going to be a great battle. Any way stannis could set the edge of the lake on fire forceing the enemy father on to the ice while the heat melts it? Wouldn't it be cool if some how the this would be the batte of fire. I think if theo is still alive we get views from both if not I think we see it thur the eyes of Asha.

[FanTasy]

Yeah, I know, I'm not saying it's impossible, only unlikely. For instance, Bran talked to Theon (or rather, just said his name) while he was in Winterfell, what? A couple of weeks before meeting Stannis? But of course, Bran was probably not using all his power there, and with Bloodraven's help I assume he can do much more. What I find nearly impossible is that they will fully communicate with them, like sentences. But I like this ideas of a bunch of ravens gathering in a tree and exclaiming something like "Theon" or "Stop" over and over until they decide not to execute him - THAT is not beyond Bran's power, and it could be enough to convince the Northmen not to kill him.

I think arrows will be loosed when ravens start meddling and become annoying. Why should one believe what a raven says?

Would Stannis suddenly turn into a spiritual person, fall on his knees and become an instant believer in the power of the old gods?

He has stated to Davos that he decided to not believe in any god after he saw his father and mother shipwrecked before his eyes.

[slayer420]

I think you are seeing this thur your eyes instead of how the people of the north would see it.

[FanTasy]

I think you are seeing this thur your eyes instead of how the people of the north would see it.

Ha ... I am from 'A North' myself, always suspicious towards southerners who want to come up north and rule :devil:

I agree that some people in the North who believe in the old gods could be influenced. Will Stannis?

But maybe, if there will be an execution on that isle as suggested in the Gift Chapter, Stannis will not be present, nor any of the Queens Men.

[Lady Octarina]

Ha ... I am from 'A North' myself, always suspicious towards southerners who want to come up north and rule :devil:

I agree that some people in the North who believe in the old gods could be influenced. Will Stannis?

But maybe, if there will be an execution on that isle as suggested in the Gift Chapter, Stannis will not be present, nor any of the Queens Men.

He had to be present in such an important execution, since his main reason for executing him in the Northern manner will be to get the Northmen's trust. I doubt Stannis would believe anything, but in the unlikely event the Northerns believe in the ravens, trees, or whatever will be the way of Bran talking to them, he would have to abide to their will to keep their support.

But anyway, why do we assume it will be a supernatural event to save Theon's life? Even if we believe that Bran somehow convinced Asha to convince Stannis to execute Theon there, if he is to survive it could be from any other method. They may find something in the woods, or someone might meet them there.

[slayer420]

Wouldn't it be cool if davos and rickton was there waiting for them.

[serbrc]

Not such a relevant thought, but it came to mind while reading this chapter: Does the Iron Bank's effort to install Stannis so he can repay their debts remind anybody else of the EU's recent push for "technocratic" governments in Italy and Greece? I'm sure that wasn't Martin's intention, but I thought it was funny.

It does make me think, though. I dobut Stannis would be as pliable a leader as Mario Monti, and if he can't or won't introduce the Westerosi equivalent of austerity measures I don't think the Iron Bank will have any qualms about overthrowing him. They don't seem like the most reliable of allies to me.

[FanTasy]

I don't think the Iron Bank will have any qualms about overthrowing him. They don't seem like the most reliable of allies to me.

I suppose the contract signed by Stannis with his blood (nice touch, in front of a 'bloodless banker') means that the Iron Bank will take over the other loans of Robert's regime? The Iron Bank was not the only money lender the realm did business with.

I seem to recall Robert also lended heavily from the Lord of Casterley Rock and from the Faith.

Oomph ... the Iron Bank owns Stannis ... lock, stock and barrel.

[Tini]

I don't think that taking over Robert's other loans is part of their deal with Stannis.

I don't think Stannis is going to pay back the money that Robert borrowed from his Lannister in-laws. That is a huge reduction in royal debts right there. If he then gets rid of the Lannisters, and takes possession of their gold mines, he'll be able to pay back the Iron Bank using the Lannister gold.

[Pliskin]

It's something I've never understood.

Why did Cersei never consider paying the Iron Bank with the Lannister gold ? oO

She was the Lady of the Rock...