[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I, Part 4

[Fragile Bird]

The Bible was supposedly written prior to medieval Westeros and much of it are parables which were meant as simple and memorable stories to make a point or teach a lesson. I know many claim that Revelations is encrypted, but I think the symbolism would have made sense to the people that lived at that time.

Ok, now you have really thrown me for a loop - there is a Bible in Westeros? Surely it ain't the one we read.

PS does a bell ring too at the same time?

[Melifeather]

Ok, now you have really thrown me for a loop - there is a Bible in Westeros? Surely it ain't the one we read.

PS does a bell ring too at the same time?

GRRM has never brought up the Bible in any of the books. I just meant that the symbolism would have made sense to the people living in a medieval time period.

The "bell ringing everytime an angel gets its wings" is from the movie, "It's a Wonderful Life".

[Tyler Snow]

Just read it, loved it. I can't believe how fast GRRM was able to make Theon a character I disliked into a pitied character. I really hope he gets some sort of revenge on the Boltons, beyond what he has done already to thwart their schemes. At least getting to pay Ramsay back in kind.

[Lady Octarina]

Victarion becoming ruler of the Ironborn is one of the worst conceivable outcomes. Better just have a tsunami do it. He has no imagination whatsoever, and he was being pushed so heavily by Aeron Dampbrain because he was all about bringing back 'The Old Way'. In other words making them all be yar yar I be a pirate.

Theon and Asha are pretty much the Ironborn's only chance. Actually Euron would have been, too. If you listen to his dialogue he clearly recognizes that the Old Way is lost and won't work. The difference is that Asha wants her people to thrive in peace.

I didn't mean Victarion (gods forbid, the man is unbearable and a simpleton!). I should have been more specific, Asha has far too many uncles. I meant the bookworm one, her mother's brother (forgot his name). I think Asha would be a good ruler, but let's be honest - her chances of being chosen as the new queen/lady/whatever are almost non-existant.

[iamthedave]

I didn't mean Victarion (gods forbid, the man is unbearable and a simpleton!). I should have been more specific, Asha has far too many uncles. I meant the bookworm one, her mother's brother (forgot his name). I think Asha would be a good ruler, but let's be honest - her chances of being chosen as the new queen/lady/whatever are almost non-existant.

Oh you meant one of the other uncles. I think the hard part would be persuading them to go for it. The Reader doesn't seem to have the slightest interest in such affairs.

Theon as the puppet ruler with Asha as his 'advisor' is probably their best outcome and I think one of the more thematically satisfying. Asha overturning the traditional ways about as much as this setting will allow (by being 'really' in charge) while Theon who began being pissed off about being denied what was his by birth eventually earns it but as a broken shell of a man, having suffered more than any other character to achieve what he gets (I'll be stunned, just stunned, if anyone can top Theon for sheer suffering in the remaining two books).

[FanTasy]

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150319542068577&set=oa.10150837477745584&type=1&theater

I was pretty touched by this drawing of Theon/Reek, by Marc Fishman.

[R'hllor-Is-The-Truth]

Oh you meant one of the other uncles. I think the hard part would be persuading them to go for it. The Reader doesn't seem to have the slightest interest in such affairs.

Theon as the puppet ruler with Asha as his 'advisor' is probably their best outcome and I think one of the more thematically satisfying. Asha overturning the traditional ways about as much as this setting will allow (by being 'really' in charge) while Theon who began being pissed off about being denied what was his by birth eventually earns it but as a broken shell of a man, having suffered more than any other character to achieve what he gets (I'll be stunned, just stunned, if anyone can top Theon for sheer suffering in the remaining two books).

The Ironborn would never accept Theon or Asha as rulers. I think Euron would be a great King if he didn't want to rule all of Westeros. I think he should just focus on the Iron Islands instead.

[Tini]

The Ironborn would never accept Theon or Asha as rulers. I think Euron would be a great King if he didn't want to rule all of Westeros. I think he should just focus on the Iron Islands instead.

But he doesn't. If Euron sinks enough ships trying to take Westeros (or fighting Victarion), the Ironborn might consider Theon and Asha as a welcome alternative. There are Ironborn who would support Asha (like her uncle, the Reader). There just weren't enough of them, especially not when Euron appealed to their greed. His popularity will not last past the first defeats.

[Tyler Snow]

I'm not so sure. It seemed that Asha's appeal to establish the ironborn on land was gaining traction and may have succeeded if Euron had not appeared with promises of unfathomable wealth and glory. If she can enlist Theon to accept her point of view I think they could be a powerful political tandem, especially considering that Euron is going to have to square off against Paxter Redwyne and the might of Highgarden against the Shield Islands and Victarion is fighting in Essos after already having lost half of his fleet.

If both are defeated and lose large portions of their navies and, consequently, their followers and, somehow, Theon and/or Asha make it back to Pyke as the only Greyjoys with the backing of Aeron Damphair, I absolutely seeing either of them getting the nod as ruler. Also, after the marauding of Victarion and Euron, they are going to have to organize some form of defense so Pyke is razed to the ground or garner the support of whoever gains the Iron Throne to show mercy.

What I never understood was why Balon went after the Starks instead of the Lannisters in the first place. I'm assuming he took payment from Tywin but I can't recall that being mentioned in the book. I suppose I could understand the want of revenge against Ned Stark for the death of his sons but the expedition was led by Robert Baratheon who is married to..Cersei Lannister.

On top of that, the Westerlands are closer to the Iron Islands, closer to reinforcements, a safer route and have more booty and gold than anywhere in the kingdoms! Why raid the coast of the North for pinecones and some smaller outposts? Because it was defenseless? Seems sort of against the ironborns claim of bravery when they have a challenge to the south, a cakewalk in the North and choose the cakewalk, no?

Even now, I'm not sure why Euron bypasses Lannister lands and hits the shield islands. The Lannister host is, at the time he commands his expeditions, still in the field and has to contend with growing threats everywhere to protect the Crownlands and the Westerlands. Even up to date, with the Golden Company tramping around in the Stormlands, Tywin dead, Kevan dead, Cersei imprisoned, Tyrion on the lamb, and Jaime handless.

If I'm Asha or Theon and I get back, I take what strength I have and say, "Let's take Lannisport and Casterly Rock for ourselves and our children. Boom. Done, great plan with a huge payout against a weak enemy.

I guess what I'm saying is the door is wide open for Asha/Theon to return, have an aggressive, ironborn plan ready to go, while being able to consolidate their depreciated forces closer to home. Seven hells, they could even return the Shield Islands to Highgarden (if they haven't retaken them already) as a plan to have the Tyrells assist in their assault on the Westerlands.

[alienarea]

I guess I lost track of it if it happened - did we already agree on whether this chapter takes place before or after Jon gets stabbed?

[Pliskin]

I guess I lost track of it if it happened - did we already agree on whether this chapter takes place before or after Jon gets stabbed?

Yes. Before.

It is said by Martin in the introduction.

[Lady Octarina]

What I never understood was why Balon went after the Starks instead of the Lannisters in the first place. I'm assuming he took payment from Tywin but I can't recall that being mentioned in the book. I suppose I could understand the want of revenge against Ned Stark for the death of his sons but the expedition was led by Robert Baratheon who is married to..Cersei Lannister.

On top of that, the Westerlands are closer to the Iron Islands, closer to reinforcements, a safer route and have more booty and gold than anywhere in the kingdoms! Why raid the coast of the North for pinecones and some smaller outposts? Because it was defenseless? Seems sort of against the ironborns claim of bravery when they have a challenge to the south, a cakewalk in the North and choose the cakewalk, no?

That's a good point; I never really put much thought into it. I assumed there was some kind of historical rivalry between the North and the Iron Islands, or is it simply a product of my imagination? But anyway, they do have a recent reason to attack the North: the humiliation of having Balon's last male heir taken by Eddard Stark.

By the way, do we know who killed his older sons? I remember it was Stannis who defeated Victarion's fleet, but apart from that I don't know much about Balon's rebellion...

But, well, I do think it would be much harder to invade any rich part of the Westerlands - Robb only managed because he came from the east. Wouldn't the mountains on the coast make it a suicide mission to the iron islanders?

[Tyler Snow]

Could be, though I think in their rebellion they did burn the Lannister fleet at Lannisport so they've ventured there before. I don't think they ever mention who killed his sons but I believe it was Eddard that led the ground forces. I know Thoros of Myr was the first over the battlement but beyond that I'm sure they just got killed in the fighting. Though, having Eddard be the commander of the ground troops (I'm not sure if Robert was there or not) would be enough to lay the grief on him I suppose.

Of course, could just be that I'm more of a Stark than Lannister fan that I'm wishing Balon threw his weight behind Robb instead of Tywin, haha.

[iamthedave]

The Ironborn would never accept Theon or Asha as rulers. I think Euron would be a great King if he didn't want to rule all of Westeros. I think he should just focus on the Iron Islands instead.

They will if the Damphair tells them to, and if the Damphair thinks the only way to get Euron Crow's Eye off the seastone chair is putting Theon on it, I think he might well do so.

And why wouldn't they accept Asha? If you read the Kingsmoot chapter she got plenty of support. Not as much as Euron sure, but that Kingsmoot wiped out pretty much every contender (several of them wiped out by Asha herself) except for Asha, Victarion and Euron. The Ironborn need someone to lead them. Sure they'll pick the worst possible option that's presented to them every time, but if you keep whittling off the bad ones you end up with Asha in the end.

That's a good point; I never really put much thought into it. I assumed there was some kind of historical rivalry between the North and the Iron Islands, or is it simply a product of my imagination? But anyway, they do have a recent reason to attack the North: the humiliation of having Balon's last male heir taken by Eddard Stark.

By the way, do we know who killed his older sons? I remember it was Stannis who defeated Victarion's fleet, but apart from that I don't know much about Balon's rebellion...

But, well, I do think it would be much harder to invade any rich part of the Westerlands - Robb only managed because he came from the east. Wouldn't the mountains on the coast make it a suicide mission to the iron islanders?

Who killed them isn't actually important. We know Balon blames Eddard primarily, and Robert secondarily. For all the loathing he shows to Theon, it's obvious he was deeply hurt by taking his last living son away, which can't have been helped by the fact taking Theon away seems to have driven his wife completely mad. It certainly seems to be all she talks about.

I think Eddard did kill one of the kids personally, he was certainly there at the final battle.

[WetHair]

Actually Eddard had nothing to do with killing any of Balon's sons. One (Rodrick) was killed by Jason Mallister when he attacked Seagard and the other (Maron) during the collapse of a tower at Pyke.

[3CityApache]

Yes, I did recall something about collapsin' tower.

As to why Balon went after the Starks instead of the Lannisters, I guess he just assumed Robb's chances were much smaller than Lannister's on paper. So he just didn't close the door to an agreement with the ultimate (in his view) victor, gaining extra points for attacking his enemy. Apart from that, according to his plans, it was supposed to be much easier for him to retain North after conquering it (thanks to Moat Cailin) than it would be in Westernlands (Lannisport and Casterly Rock would probably be retaken by returning Lannister army on the spot).

[MSUMC25]

I think Tywin was worried about Stannis because is actually a great soldier and tactician and all Tywin does is slaughter people when they are sleeping(lol)

Anyway, This is going to be a long battle. Stannis vs Freys, Stannis vs Ramsay and Stannis vs the Great Roose Bolton. I hope he survives this entire book.

Good point for how great of a man Tywin was perceived to be, did he ever win a battle that wasn't already decided throughout his life? He definitely didn't throughout the books and the history GRRM provided us. He used treachery to defeat Aery's and Robb Stark. Not to mention his seed produced to incestuous twins and a dwarf whom his parenting skills or lack thereof drove Tyrion to kill him.

Meanwhile Stannis has several notable victories, and I love how in the preview chapter he finally shows his mettle when talking to Theon, “I destroyed your Uncle Victorian’s fleet.” - Great Line. This has to be one of his most impressive victories especially since the book makes Victorian out to be one of the finest warriors and Naval commanders in Westros.

[Frey Pie]

Ah something just stuck out to me there in the opening few sentences-Theon Greyjoy chortled. A stab of pain went up his arms, from his shoulders to his wrists. All he had done, all he had suffered, Moat Cailin and Barrowton and Winterfell, Abel and his washerwomen, Crowfood and his Umbers, the trek through the snows, all of it had only served to exchange one tormentor for another.

So i cant remember Theon ever going to Barrowton unless i forgot a passage in Dance?

[Pliskin]

Ah something just stuck out to me there in the opening few sentences-Theon Greyjoy chortled. A stab of pain went up his arms, from his shoulders to his wrists. All he had done, all he had suffered, Moat Cailin and Barrowton and Winterfell, Abel and his washerwomen, Crowfood and his Umbers, the trek through the snows, all of it had only served to exchange one tormentor for another.

So i cant remember Theon ever going to Barrowton unless i forgot a passage in Dance?

Barrowton is the house of Lady Dustin. Theon was there with Ramsay, and Roose even took him and talked to him about Domeric and stuff, there. I think it's in Barrowton that Roose says the famous quote "Don't make me rue the day I raped your mother !".

They were there just after taking Moat Cailin and joining with the host of Roose who came from the South.

[Anarchosaurus Rex]

Stannis is not an impulsive commander, so his confidence in the preview chapter is reassuring. Victory against Bolton, however, is hardly assured. Stannis does not know about Manderly's subversion of the Bolton regime, and in fact believes that Manderly had Davos executed. Convincing Stannis to ally with Manderly may be troublesome. Furthermore, even if Stannis does defeat the Freys, he still lacks the men and materiel to mount a siege against Winterfell. Granted, Stannis intends to use his financing from the Iron Bank to acquire sellswords abroad, but he has only just dispatched Massey to execute that plan, whereas the battle between Stannis and the Freys is imminent. Stannis may win the battle, but because he is unable to capitalize on his success, ultimately lose the war. Stranded in the wintry North without provisions, shelter, or reinforcements? In this situation, Stannis' one advantage is the allegiance of the Northern mountain tribes, which may - under the cover of winter - be able to infiltrate Winterfell as Theon and his Ironmen did.

Finally, Mance Rayder should not be forgotten. If Ramsay's letter to Jon is believable, Rayder is subdued, but this is the King-Beyond-the-Wall, after all. There's a chance Rayder could escape and assassinate the Boltons. Rayder is not someone with whom anyone should trifle, especially a punk like Ramsay.