[TWoW Spoilers] Theon I, Part 4

[Melifeather]

You suggest the Karstarks will take the Dreadfort from Bolton, or at least pretend to take it, and that's why Stannis wouldn't be surprised by them having the Dreadfort maester? I like that ^.^

What? No! We already know the Karstarks are in cahoots with the Boltons from aDwD. They've already met and conspired in aDwD...no need for a battle for the Dreadfort.

I think both sides of this discussion agree that having Winterfell ravens connects the Karstarks to the Boltons, as this would be the evidence that they recently visited Winterfell. It's my assertion that the Karstarks also gained Bolton's maester during this visit.

[Lady Octarina]

What? No! We already know the Karstarks are in cahoots with the Boltons from aDwD. They've already met and conspired in aDwD...no need for a battle for the Dreadfort.

I think both sides of this discussion agree that having Winterfell ravens connects the Karstarks to the Boltons, as this would be the evidence that they recently visited Winterfell. It's my assertion that the Karstarks also gained Bolton's maester during this visit.

lol

That's what I understood when you said there are missing elements to explain the Dreadfort maester's presence there. Well, I don't suggest the Karstarks would have actually fought Bolton, only pretend they did and then captured the maester. But if that's not the case, I'll stick with the "that was a mistake that will be corrected by the editor" theory. :D

[Melifeather]

lol

That's what I understood when you said there are missing elements to explain the Dreadfort maester's presence there. Well, I don't suggest the Karstarks would have actually fought Bolton, only pretend they did and then captured the maester. But if that's not the case, I'll stick with the "that was a mistake that will be corrected by the editor" theory. :D

I think having the Maester from the Dreadfort, along with having Winterfell ravens, suggests that the Karstarks had to have visited Winterfell more recently than if he were just their own Maester from Karhold. Does that make sense?

[WetHair]

When and where is GRRM going to appear in person next? Let's find the closest member of this board who can make it and pay for them to attend on the promise that they will find a way to ask if this was a typo or not. I think he would answer that question. (On the other hand though why hasn't he answered it already; maybe he doesn't know People are Wondering?) With luck someone will live in the same city. It was just a thought......

IM very, very frequently wrong HO this is going to be the first chapter taking place with Stannis. I mean it's only a day after Theon and Jeyne were dumped at Asha's feet. There isn't going to be any new information that he receives.

[It Rhymes With Meek]

It certainly would be nice to have some clarification.

Incidentally, he actually made an error that's very similar to this in an earlier preview chapter-- he put in "Lady Bolton" instead of "Lady Glover": http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1233/

Funny that in that case he accidentally subbed the Lady of the Dreadfort for the Lady of Deepwood Motte, and in the present case (I think) it's the Maester of the Dreadfort for the Maester of Karhold.

[Melifeather]

Sounds like we're going to agree to disagree on what seat the Maester is from! :cheers:

We've also picked apart whether or not Stannis is cutting holes in the ice...did anyone think he's building with ice?

Another discussion was regarding Asha's request to Stannis that if Theon is to die, do it in front of the weirwood heart tree on the island by sword. Many suspect an interaction with Bran there, but I think Asha just wants to keep Theon from burning. She's already seen others sacrificed in that way.

We've also clarified that Arnolf was invited to breakfast, not to have requested the breakfast.

What about Stannis's use of his own blood to sign the bank papers. Didn't the "Bolton" letter that Jon received at the Wall have strange, brown, flaking ink?

[Lady Octarina]

What about Stannis's use of his own blood to sign the bank papers. Didn't the "Bolton" letter that Jon received at the Wall have strange, brown, flaking ink?

Yes, but the Bolton letter suggests that Stannis is dead already, so he couldn't have used his blood. And I think it's a different interpretation as to the use of blood in letters: Ramsay uses it to scare others, Stannis used it to sign as a proof that he would keep his word and pay the Bank (he committed his blood to that).

I still think Stannis sent false information to Winterfell on the outcome of the battle and crazy Ramsay wrote that letter using Mance's blood.

[MtnLion]

Yes, but the Bolton letter suggests that Stannis is dead already, so he couldn't have used his blood. And I think it's a different interpretation as to the use of blood in letters: Ramsay uses it to scare others, Stannis used it to sign as a proof that he would keep his word and pay the Bank (he committed his blood to that). I still think Stannis sent false information to Winterfell on the outcome of the battle and crazy Ramsay wrote that letter using Mance's blood.

Ah, the "pink letter" does not have any indication (the absence suggesting that it was written in maester's ink) of being written in blood, as earlier letters from Ramsay had been.

[Eddward Stark]

I don't have ADwD with me (sadly :crying: ), but didn't Roose Bolton elude to the fact that he had received some information on Stannis, while holding a letter, in the Great Hall in Winterfell? I swear I remember this, and -- unless my memory fails me and I invented this in my own head -- didn't his maester hand him the letter?

If so, presumably, the letter could have been the map that was sent by whichever maester was at Stannis's camp with the Karstarks.

If I recall correctly, this was also immediately preceding the fight in which Manderly got hurt; therefore having a map would have potentially inspired Roose to send the Manderlys and Freys out: they would know how to locate Stannis. Remember that prior to this supposed letter (which I may or may not have invented in my head), it was thought that Stannis was right outside Winterfell. We, the readers, now know that it was really Crowsbane Umber outside the wall, well protected by the storm from any spy's eyes, but the Boltons didn't know that. How else, other than this letter/map, would Roose have known to send the Manderlys and Freys to Stannis? (And we would have known by now if they had attacked Umber instead.)

If the Dreadfort maester gave Roose the letter, I'd say that GRRM made a mistake, as many believe. If not, I'd say the maester was already sent out to join the Karstarks, and GRRM did not make a mistake.

Please, somebody, find out whether it was the Dreadfort Maester that handed Roose this letter. Thanks!!

- Ed(d)ward

[Lebronn Jaime]

Please, somebody, find out whether it was the Dreadfort Maester that handed Roose this letter. Thanks!!

Maester Rhodry, who served Cerwyn and joined the service of Bolton when the latter took possesion of Winterfell.

[Eddward Stark]

Maester Rhodry, who served Cerwyn and joined the service of Bolton when the latter took possesion of Winterfell.

Ah, thank you very much, Lebronn! This doesn't really settle anything. Sorry. :( Carry on.

[WetHair]

LOL!!!!! Of course nothing settles anything, but maybe that's all to the good or what would anyone have to speculate about in the years in between books? I am new here and am simply astonished that everyone just kept going on during the six years between books 4 and 5. That is true dedication.

[Vandalism]

Theon and Stannis are my favourite characters. Could I have asked for a more enticing excerpt? =D

Honestly, I loved Stannis since I first heard him being spoken of in the season 1 of the TV Series. The subtle bad-assery in his character was really amazing, and really culminated when he smashed Mance Rayder.

Stannis is an epic king. I cannot wait till he fights the Boltons and kills them. This battle is set up so wonderfully, what with Manderly and Davos' pact and Roose's failed ruse (HAH) with Arnolf Karstark. The battle will be epic.

Boy, is Sannis a tenacious and unexpectedly gritty commander or what?

[bemused]

The letter Jon recieves announcing the wedding of Ramsay and Arya was written in blood. With the pink letter, GRRM doesn't tell us outright , but after Tormund sees it , he observes that if he had some maester's ink , he could write whatever he liked , so it's strongly hinted that it's written in ink.

The letter Roose recieves at Winterfell must have been the one with the map ,sent from Stannis' camp by Tybalt. Roose had been holding off on sending men out , since they didn't know where Stannis was. After reading the letter , he announces that Stannis is no more than 3 days away , and orders the Frey and Manderly forces out.

We don't see him order Ramsay out ..I think Theon assumes he will be coming to try to recapture Arya and Reek , because Ramsay always does hunt down any escapees ...and we know since Ramsay was already chafing at the bit to attack , it might be difficult for Roose to hold him , so Theon may be right.

I don't think Tybalt's Winterfell ravens necessarily imply that there was a recent trip to WF , any Northern lord might have had a number of WF ravens on hand , since WF had been the seat of their overlord.

[Melifeather]

I don't think Tybalt's Winterfell ravens necessarily imply that there was a recent trip to WF , any Northern lord might have had a number of WF ravens on hand , since WF had been the seat of their overlord.

This is not a firm conclusion, but I thought it was probable since logistically it could be problematic to carry too many different ravens while marching around for, what, years? How do you tell your ravens apart? You keep them in separate cages, and didn't the gift chapter mention only two cages with one cage empty? So, only two ravens were brought or left?

My line of thinking is if they have been away from home for awhile...years in fact...it's more likely they would only have ravens to send messages to home. If he is the Dreadfort maester, he'd have Dreadfort ravens. If he's the Karstark's maester, he should have Karhold ravens. Yes, Winterfell is their liege's home, but how many years have passed from the time Robb is declared King in the North and the Theon gift chapter? It seems reasonable to me that in order to have Winterfell ravens in your possession, likely you were recently at Winterfell or someone from Winterfell brought you some.

[bemused]

Melisandra..I see what you mean, but I wasn't thinking that they'd necessarily been away from home all that time . At least we know that Arnolf was at the Dreadfort prior to this, and as castellan of Karhold , he wouldn't have been with Robb , himself ... would he ?

It was 3 cages , 2 ravens remaining in the gift chapter. I'm thinking all 3 were for Winterfell , and Tybalt was only there for this one campaign , and would only be needing to communicate with Roose .

[Patchface12]

I agree with what your saying, Theon did help Jeyne. That's why earlier, I said Theon is still a "redeemable" character in my book. But in the end I do think he will need to pay for what he has done, with his life's blood.....but I am not opposed to the idea, of Theon being used to do "more good", before he must die(as long as he does die in the end, for what he has done)

Side note,

I really do not buy into the theory of, "Theon King/Lord of the Iron Islands".

The only way that can happen, is if Euron dies. which I believe he will, but the Iron Islands will go to Asha, or at the very least Victarion.

As far as Asha calling another "Kingsmoot", on the grounds that Theon was not able to make his claim. I really don't see that happening either, because the Iron Islands are kind of like the Wildlings in a sense, they both follow strength. Theon would never be viewed as "strong enough" to rule the Iron Islands, especially after the way Ramsey left him(he is less than half a man now).

However I can see Asha getting the Iron Islands, if she can convince some of them to support Stannis, and if Stannis ends up winning the Iron Throne, In that situation, I could see Asha getting the Iron Islands.

Similar situation for Victarion getting the Iron Islands. If Victarion does end up supporting Danaerys(and I believe he will), then I could see Danaerys, making him Lord of the Iron Islands(and giving Victarion charge over her Royal navy, as Master of ships), assuming Danaerys wins the Iron Throne, of course. (I don't know if I believe Dany will get the Iron Throne, but I do believe its very possible)

As it stands no. The old Theon was a self entitled jerk that won nobodies respect. While the things Ramsay's done to him make him look less favorable, since he probably can't hold a weapon anymore, at the same time, because of Ramsay's torture, he no longer fears death. Because of this, Theon might do something ballsy that wins the Ironborn's respect.

He might have Damphair's reluctant aid as well.Damphair hopes Theon's claim could get Euron killed/ deposed, but as means to call another Kingsmoot and put Victarion on the Seastone chair.

[RWHamel]

Bran or more likely Bloodraven are manipulating the situation. I wonder what will happen if they get Theon to the weirwood.

[Timmay]

ADWD quotes taken from pp 616&617 a Ghost in Winterfell Theon POV

“the leaves of the heart tree were rustling his name. “Theon” they seemed to whisper, “Theon”.

“They know my name”

“Let me die as Theon, not as Reek.”

“...Bran,” the tree murmured.”

“for one strange moment it seemed as if it were Bran’s face carved in the pale trunk of the weirwood, staring down at him with eyes red and wise and sad.”

“He would be dead before help reached him, to be sure, his blood soaking into the ground to feed the heart tree. And what would be so wrong with that?”

Authors italics.

Bran's last chapter in aDwD

"but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood."

I think Theon may have a fertilizer destiny and his life's blood will give Bran more power. More blood magic. And Theon is the Prince of the Pyke.

"There is power in King's Blood"

[Rockroi]

.... rhymes with critique ....

So, I have been away from these parts of the bopard sfor a while for a variety of reasons (work, new business, new daughter, less-than-amazing end to the football season, and a less than thrilled response to ADwD). But then I thoought, "How else am I going to sp[end the next 5 years waiting for "Winds of Winter"? Might as well pass some time.

I just read Theon I which was an engrossing, powerful chapter that captured the desperation of Theon superimposed oin the absolute control of Stannis. Here are some thoughts:

Theon : Theon's metamorphoses has been tremendous- from ward to prince to lord to … reek… and now he is slowly inching his way back into humanity. Theon’s personality is tied to who has him captive at any one time: Balon, Ned, Ramsey, Roose and now Stannis. And the whole time Theon is growing. The scene with Stannis exemplifies more growth, only it’s a regression back to the mean. Theon is broken, but not a different person. Slowly he is getting back to his nrormal self and that normal self is a survivor and a little bit arrogant.

I think his attitude on the chains was very real to life; Theon is trying to survive and wedged into his mind’s eye is the belief that Ramsey will get him. So Theon must balance against the present danger (surviving Stannis) with the future one (getting away from Ramsey).

The one thing I am a little bit miffed on is why, exactly, is Theon not saying that Bran and Rickon are still alive? IT has no down side. Right now, Theon is going to die. He’s not afraid of it (in the abstract) but still: who wants to die when they could avoid it? Especially when those who want him dead want it for something he did not actually do. Here I think that any loyalty to “Arya” or others is needlessly complicated; simplicity will serve. Will anyone believe him? Again, what’s the alternative? Stay quiet and get killed anyway? What’s the worst that can happen?

I think, parenthetically, that Theon should die anyway (not that he will; just that he should). He killed two innocent boys for no reason other than he could. They did not do anything to anyone and Theon killed them because he was powerful and they were week. I thought Arys got taken out for that? Wether those two boys were named Rickon and Bran of “the Crofter’s sons” makes no matter. He’s a child killer.

The King: Stannis is rapidly becoming the Anton Chigurh of Westeros; a grim, determined, utterly unforgiving force of nature that no storm, army or rule can stop. When Stannis sets his sights on something its Hell. Holding Storm’s End, destroying the Iron Fleet, routing Mance Ryder, retaking the North- all off it is as certain as the tide. The only thing that saved King’s Landing was the perfect storm of Tyrion’s chain, Tywin’s army, Aerys’ wildfire and Renly’s Ghost.

I think another boarder said it best- because Stannis has not revealed his plan its almost certain to work. Much like Tywin’s Red Wedding, Tyrion’s chain, LF’s Purple Wedding, and Drogon….dracrys… its almost as if the plans we know the least about work while the plans we know the most about fail – such as Ned’s plan to get Cersei off the Throne or Visery’s plan to retake the Throne.

I also think Stannis is perfectly comfortable whole being, paradoxically, in the most precarious of positions: he has no supplies, in the middle of nowhere, with a disparate army, Northerner’s who don’t trust him, Ironborn who are not sworn to him, and a well-nourished and well led army coming right at him.

So why isn’t he nervous? And don’t you get this sinking suspicion that Stannis should be dead by now? And if he’s not he’s hanging around for something? We just have not figured out what yet.

But I get the feeling Ramsey and Roose will. Soon.

I think that Stannis knows he needs a Stark in Winterfell; he tried doing that with John but John was, well, John. He can’t reach Sansa, thinks he may hold Arya and thinks Bran and Rickon are dead.

I think if Stannis can get one of them to be loyal to him that will be the end of that. Stannis can unite the North behind a Stark; he will have led them successfully in battle; defeated the pretenders of Bolton and would be turning an eye towards the Twins (you know its coming). He will have avenged Ned and Robb and would be able to claim allegiance with the North and eventually the Riverlands. If he can then complete all of that with sitting Rickon on the Throne its better than him holding the seat himself.

The North: I think a few people have asked why the North is loyal to Stannis and I think it’s easy to discern. Stannis if fighting the Norths War BEFORE he fights his War for the Crown. This was what he did at the Wall- he put the needs of the region above his own. Now, don’t get me wrong the North does not love the man, but they definitely respect him. I really think these Northerners see Stannis as the only guy around who is still standing. And as luck would have it he stands the same way they do- straight as an arrow.

If Stannis and put Rickon on the Throne, that would be the end of that; every northerner would jump off the Wall into a sea of Others for him.

The Bank: I think the Bank sees a realm in complete disarray and knows that if there is any hope of getting repaid its not in Cersei/Tommen or in Highgarden (now under new management); its with this crazy man and his red priestess. They also know Stannis’ word is good; that he sees himself as Roberts heir and therefore he’s Roberts guarantor. To the Bank that’s as good as all the gold in the Lannister mines. None of which, we all know, is flowing towards them. Yet.

The Letter: In many ways we are back where we started . Ramsey sends the letter after this battle that awaits Stannis. All the advantages seem to be with Ramsey. Its possible that Ramsey knows his forces were crushed at the Battle of the North and in a blind panic sent the letter to John Snow in the hopes of getting hostages, including the Queen and Stannis’ daughter. However its also possible that Stannis defeated Roose and then sent misinformation- via the surviving Karstark men –that the Battle was a route. Meanwhile its possible that Stannis will roll the dice and trusty Manderly (especially if Manderly’s knowledge of Skagos proves fruitful) then Stannis can whip in the Manderly forces as well. With that Stannis will not need to besiege anyone; only raise the gates and descend on the flayed men. And that is that.

Stannis has no idea that with the info Ramsey will then, inexplicably, write to Jon Snow. I think Ramsey sent the letter just as the northerners were “returning,”

Overall, the chapter was incredible and was what we were looking for to try to bridge that space between the scene where Theon breaks into Stannis’ campo to the Pink Letter. If chapter explains some of that (but not all of it). I think it’s a nice bit to whet our appetite and feels very much a part of this series.