hotweaselsoup Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I've always assumed that everything we see in the maps is in the northern hemisphere, with the equator being well south of the southern coast of Westeros. And I believe GRRM once said that the wonky seasons are due to magic. So I wouldn't look to orbital mechanics for any explanations.Yeah, I've heard also the quote that the weird seasons have a magical explanation, rather than a "science fiction-y" one. That said, I also know that GRRM likes to blur the boundaries of the various genres in which he writes - fantasy, historical fiction, science fiction, horror, etc. - and I do think there may be elements of all these genres in ASoIaF. Besides, you can have science explain a shadowed pole, and magic be the reason for the push/pull of the axial wobble/wonky seasons - so both can be in play. @tze - interesting stuff about the Lords vs. Firsts at the Wall. Now that you mention it, the "Lords" sound very Andalesque and kneeler-ish, and you don't typically have a steward without some sort of lord or king above him. I like your idea that the Wall might have initially only had builders and rangers, subject to Winterfell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanTasy Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Yeah, I've heard also the quote that the weird seasons have a magical explanation, rather than a "science fiction-y" one. That said, I also know that GRRM likes to blur the boundaries of the various genres in which he writes - fantasy, historical fiction, science fiction, horror, etc. - and I do think there may be elements of all these genres in ASoIaF. Besides, you can have science explain a shadowed pole, and magic be the reason for the push/pull of the axial wobble/wonky seasons - so both can be in play.@tze - interesting stuff about the Lords vs. Firsts at the Wall. Now that you mention it, the "Lords" sound very Andalesque and kneeler-ish, and you don't typically have a steward without some sort of lord or king above him. I like your idea that the Wall might have initially only had builders and rangers, subject to Winterfell.Yes, as we discussed in an earlier Heresy thread. It would explain why the Starks seem to have jurisdiction that does not stop at the boundaries of The Gift or at the Wall. As Eddard says in AGOT, where he supposes he shall have to raise his banners and fight Mance Rayder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrazny Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 RE: Watcher on the walls... In a completely unsupported turn, what is the boundary for the Lands of Always Winter? A long forgotten long abandoned wall?The only interplay with this thought is it brings us something for the origin of the Wildlings. They were original Watch deserters, who the remainder of the Watch felt needed to be killed for backing out on their oath. Since the Watch gives up their kings and loyalties, that was the genesis of their Kneeler hate. That and it was their "king" that supported the policy to kill them.very weak sauce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 I don't think there is or needs to be a boundary, the Land of Always Winter is exactly what it says, its the polar region where nothing ever grows and there's no reason to go up there. Similarly, as to the Wildlings the simplest explanation is what's been discussed before; that they wouldn't kneel when the Starks forged the northern kingdoms into one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 Just one of these blindingly obvious little points about the White Walkers which hadn't fully occurred to me before...As we know for the avoidance of confusion in the TV version the term Others is never used and instead the term White Walkers is used from the very start.In the books it appears to be different and all that we hear of are The Others (whose name may not be spoken?) except when Osha agrees when Bran asks if the White Walkers are the Others, however there's that bit with Mormont we've discussed before, when he tells Tyrion that White Walkers have been glimpsed on the shore above Eastwatch.As we saw he notes the reports with concern, adding them into the intelligence jigsaw of something dangerous building up beyond the Wall but not running into a blind panic at the news. Of itself this is more than interesting enough, but what's so blindingly obvious we missed it is what he doesn't say: the Watch is supposedly manning the Wall against the day when the Others may return, White Walkers have been seen but he doesn't equate them with the Others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotweaselsoup Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 @Black Crow - Mormont seems to have a generalized feeling of dread about the upcoming winter. He says to Tyrion: "Winter is coming, and when the Long Night falls, only the Night's Watch will stand between the realm and the darkness that sweeps from the north. The gods help us all if we are not ready." When he speaks of the white walkers being glimpsed by the fisherfolk, he speaks of them as just another harbinger of the impending cataclysm - along with the direwolves and mammoths and massive snow bears that are said to be showing up in the woods. So yes, not necessarily as a cause, or the cause, of what is coming. I don't know if he is specifically separating the white walkers out from the Others, though. His main fear seems to be the new Long Night, the darkness, that is looming. Is there a point where he specifically states that the Night's Watch mission is to guard against the Others?On the subject of blood and metal:White Walkers have blue blood. Crustaceans - crabs, lobsters, horseshoe crabs, spider crabs (ice spiders??) - also have blue blood. The blue color is caused by hemocyanin, the protein which carries the oxygen molecule in the blood. Hemocyanin contains copper atoms. Bronze is primarily copper. Hemocyanin is more efficient for oxygen transport in species who live in cold environments, with low oxygen pressure.Hemoglobin is of course the red-blood counterpart, which contains iron instead of copper.We hear that the "bones remember", and it's only when Summer cracks the wight's arm bone that it "remember it was dead". Bone marrow is where blood is produced. Is blood where the "soul" resides? Is that how the "bones remember", because a shadow of the blood still lives in the marrow? Not trying to get too science-y with the fantasy, but I think there are some rules underpinning the magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 He's certainly not separating out the White Walkers from the threat; the point is that they the White Walkers are not the Others, they may well be included amongst the Others but they are not the only one true and original Others, there are others... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrazny Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I don't think there is or needs to be a boundary, the Land of Always Winter is exactly what it says, its the polar region where nothing ever grows and there's no reason to go up there. Similarly, as to the Wildlings the simplest explanation is what's been discussed before; that they wouldn't kneel when the Starks forged the northern kingdoms into one.Hence, weak sauce :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I really like all the posts I've been reading the last couple of days, and have absolutely nothing meaningful to contribute. But I have a crazy thought in my head and I can't shake it, so I'm gonna share it here...I was listening to AGoT last night, fell asleep, and had the wackiest dream. I can't even remember the details of the dream, only the gist of it. Have been considering all the butterfly effects this would cause.Bran Stark, 'our' Bran Stark, is Brandon the Builder. Hahaha, no comments.@mrazny, doing lots of research on the family trees and marriages. It's infuriating how little info's out there.@hotweaselsoup, love the tilted axis with the 'head' in permanent shadow/dark/winter. Made me think of circadian and circannual rhythms, but I've no idea where I'm going with that yet. Love it even more that you did the experiment with the ball! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 ...Bran Stark, 'our' Bran Stark, is Brandon the Builder. Hahaha, no comments...That's an idea that has been floating around the board for a few years, so if it is crazy you are not alone in your craziness!It does fit into the idea we're had here that time is cyclical, or that history in westeros has a cyclical nature so our Bran has to rebuild winterfell, The wall (as an institution perhaps) and so on and becomes Bran the rebuilder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 That's an idea that has been floating around the board for a few years, so if it is crazy you are not alone in your craziness!It does fit into the idea we're had here that time is cyclical, or that history in westeros has a cyclical nature so our Bran has to rebuild winterfell, The wall (as an institution perhaps) and so on and becomes Bran the rebuilder.Well, it's good to know I'm not the only one that will end up in the funny farm, I suppose! I haven't seen anything about that here yet, but I'll definitely have a look, thanks. But is it even doable? I mean, just working out all the possible (undesirable) consequences, butterfly effects galore... It's mad! Love it. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Ah do you mean that Bran the builder is literally the same as our Bran? I think the timetravel twist would be a new departure. But the pattern of stories seems to hint that certain patterns repeat themselves in the history of Westeros - maybe inevitable like a scratched record if it was thrown off course by the arrival of man , or the long winter, or the coming of the andals, or the fall of the nights king or some other catastrophic event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanTasy Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 White Walkers have blue blood. Crustaceans - crabs, lobsters, horseshoe crabs, spider crabs (ice spiders??) - also have blue blood. The blue color is caused by hemocyanin, the protein which carries the oxygen molecule in the blood. Hemocyanin contains copper atoms. Bronze is primarily copper. Hemocyanin is more efficient for oxygen transport in species who live in cold environments, with low oxygen pressure.Hemoglobin is of course the red-blood counterpart, which contains iron instead of copper.We hear that the "bones remember", and it's only when Summer cracks the wight's arm bone that it "remember it was dead". Bone marrow is where blood is produced. Is blood where the "soul" resides? Is that how the "bones remember", because a shadow of the blood still lives in the marrow?Not trying to get too science-y with the fantasy, but I think there are some rules underpinning the magic.Interestingly, blue coldblooded beings on the prowl for red hot blood?Remember one of the stories of Nan? Arya - if I recall correctly - remembers the story of the hero that was kept by evil giants in a castle. He managed to escape but was caught by the white walkers, who drank his "red hot blood". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Ah do you mean that Bran the builder is literally the same as our Bran? I think the timetravel twist would be a new departure. But the pattern of stories seems to hint that certain patterns repeat themselves in the history of Westeros - maybe inevitable like a scratched record if it was thrown off course by the arrival of man , or the long winter, or the coming of the andals, or the fall of the nights king or some other catastrophic event.Yeah, I'm afraid I do mean 'the same Bran' literally, in a time travel sort f way. I know, I'm dreaming, or rather, I was! Hehehe...Interestingly, Blue blooded beings on the prowl for red blood?Remember one of the stories of Nan? Arya - if I recall correctly - remembers the story of the hero that was kept by evil giants in a castle. He managed to escape but was caught by the white walkers, who drank his "red hot blood".And in the prologue (AGoT), Royce fights with one WW, and only after blood is drawn do the others join in the attack. Of course, may be totally unrelated and irrelevant. Just saying... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Yeah, I'm afraid I do mean 'the same Bran' literally, in a time travel sort f way. I know, I'm dreaming, or rather, I was! Hehehe...Hem...I must confess, I have had shameful thoughts along similar lines, that Bran might influence things in the past, maybe shape events, but I hadn't reached such a state that I believed that Bran was physically in the past...didn't you say that you live in Zuzzex? Might be something in the water ;) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elaena Targaryen Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Just one of these blindingly obvious little points about the White Walkers which hadn't fully occurred to me before...As we know for the avoidance of confusion in the TV version the term Others is never used and instead the term White Walkers is used from the very start.In the books it appears to be different and all that we hear of are The Others (whose name may not be spoken?) except when Osha agrees when Bran asks if the White Walkers are the Others, however there's that bit with Mormont we've discussed before, when he tells Tyrion that White Walkers have been glimpsed on the shore above Eastwatch.As we saw he notes the reports with concern, adding them into the intelligence jigsaw of something dangerous building up beyond the Wall but not running into a blind panic at the news. Of itself this is more than interesting enough, but what's so blindingly obvious we missed it is what he doesn't say: the Watch is supposedly manning the Wall against the day when the Others may return, White Walkers have been seen but he doesn't equate them with the Others.@Black Crow - Mormont seems to have a generalized feeling of dread about the upcoming winter. He says to Tyrion: "Winter is coming, and when the Long Night falls, only the Night's Watch will stand between the realm and the darkness that sweeps from the north. The gods help us all if we are not ready." When he speaks of the white walkers being glimpsed by the fisherfolk, he speaks of them as just another harbinger of the impending cataclysm - along with the direwolves and mammoths and massive snow bears that are said to be showing up in the woods. So yes, not necessarily as a cause, or the cause, of what is coming. I don't know if he is specifically separating the white walkers out from the Others, though. His main fear seems to be the new Long Night, the darkness, that is looming. Is there a point where he specifically states that the Night's Watch mission is to guard against the Others?Yes, and I would imagine if it was wights or the children he would specifically say that also and not others. Remember when the ranger (Halfhand?) told Jon to tell Mormont that the trees have eyes again? That sounded more foreboding to me then when Mormont said they seen white walkers, didn't it seem they were more concerned about the trees having eyes again, or is that just me?btw, I really like the discussions about the "blood" and you all might be on to something because it makes sense and I like it. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mediterraneo Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 It is not directly connected with what we were talking about.And I know that things in the TV series are not canon, and even less canon are the simplified explainations given on the HBO site.But did we read this?Can this be redically different from the books' history?I hope we dismiss this with disdain, as it would spoil us of part of the fun... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotweaselsoup Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I really like all the posts I've been reading the last couple of days, and have absolutely nothing meaningful to contribute. But I have a crazy thought in my head and I can't shake it, so I'm gonna share it here...I was listening to AGoT last night, fell asleep, and had the wackiest dream. I can't even remember the details of the dream, only the gist of it. Have been considering all the butterfly effects this would cause.Bran Stark, 'our' Bran Stark, is Brandon the Builder. Hahaha, no comments.@mrazny, doing lots of research on the family trees and marriages. It's infuriating how little info's out there.@hotweaselsoup, love the tilted axis with the 'head' in permanent shadow/dark/winter. Made me think of circadian and circannual rhythms, but I've no idea where I'm going with that yet. Love it even more that you did the experiment with the ball!Yeah, totally not crazy with the Our Bran = Bran the Builder theory! I'm working on this theorette (thanks FanTasy :D) that skinchanging and all its variations is the projection of the mind through space, whereas greenseeing (and all its variations) is the projection of the mind through time. A powerful skinchanging greenseer (Bran Stark, come on down) would therefore be able to project himself through both space and time (cue the woowoo sound fx). And you want nutty? I think a few heretical threads back I may have muttered something about the Heart of Winter, Winterfell and wormholes.(About the experiment: my kid was wondering why there were strange continents scribbled all over his pink rubber ball. Luckily he didn't see his mother orbiting it around a candle. In the dark :drunk: ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevengeOfTheStarks Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I'd never seen the HBO affiliated version of the backstory before. I know it's not canonic, and I'm not putting any faith in it for its own sake, but I do find the desciption of the Children as a druidic people really interesting. I wonder how much input GRRM had in those descriptions, I have to think he at least had to approve them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 I'd never seen the HBO affiliated version of the backstory before. I know it's not canonic, and I'm not putting any faith in it for its own sake, but I do find the desciption of the Children as a druidic people really interesting. I wonder how much input GRRM had in those descriptions, I have to think he at least had to approve them.According to one of his interviews (I think the one with @googletalks), he doesn't have to approve anything. Actually, he even uses an example where he says something like, "If D&D want to do ...(something really outrageous I can't remember now, of course), they can', and he says the TV series is their baby, the books are his, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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