Heresy 5

[Lummel]

I disagree with the opposition to time-travel (personally I find it a great way to get about). The story goes were GRRM wills it. I don't care for time travel stories as a rule, I don't care for zombie stories either but I find the wights and Beric enjoyable enough, UnCat confronting poor Brienne was a nicely horrible moment in the series too. It all depends on how it's done.

As heretics in any case I think it ill behoves us to deny the theorising of Kissedbyfire and hotweaselsoup ;) . It might be crazy, but then again it might work to explain some things. We won't know if the pot is cracked until it comes out of the kiln.

[Eyron]

I don't think physical time-travel is impossible in this story, but I don't like the idea of certain consequences. Such as Bran being his own ancestor.

I would rather have mind-timetraveling such as hotweaselsoup and myself have suggested. I just hope that it lets us have the history as it is, and the result of the changes made are what we see now.

As a general rule: time-travel is no good. Doesn't say if it will appear in this story, but if it was possible in real life, I don't think I would do it!

I think of all science fiction with time-travels that I have come across, and my general conclusion is thus.

Time as a circle is another matter, that is more of a history literally repeating itself idea. That is a more complex and beautiful concept than worm-holes I think. Results would be similar but more in tune with the mood of ASoIaF I think.

[mrazny]

As per all theorizing, we need to draw upon the text. Many have commented that Bran speaks to Theon. Theon in his mental state could be a human eligible for skinchanging like Hodor, so the question bears how did Bran get into Theon's mind?

Was Bran simply strong enough a skinchanging that he can project past the wall? Or was he specifically able to communicate by using the Weirwood as a relay station for his skinchanging ability? I doubt he made the tree speak in anyway, this has to be from his abilities, and most likely of all would be his skinchanging (and we know he tries to speak with Hodor when he explores the caves).

The specific question becomes is it isolated to the Weirwood in Winterfell as a true relay of all of his abilities, or is it *any* Weirwood. I guess *TWOW chapter spoiler*

when Theon goes to the tree for his sacrifice we'll learn a whole lot more

.

The point being, if the tree is a relay for Bran's skinchanging ability, and Bran can view time with the weirwood, if he is able to combine those specific abilities, he would be able to communicate with the past. This isn't Time Travel per se.

Easy things that temper this. 1) the general time travel theory (one of many), that the time travel always happened and that's why we're experiencing the world that we are. So anything Bran does know always happened and is how Westeros came to be the way it is. 2) two birds one stone part, Bran's skinchanging into *men*. This is both why he won't be successful with everyone (think thistle going nuts), and why other greenseers didn't also do similar things (or at least BR himself). BR doesn't talk about skinchanging men, so this may be something he's just incapable of doing when he laments that he can't talk to the people he loves in the past.

If you're a First Man, freshly pacted with the children walking around this tree on this hill, and it seems like the tree is talking to you in your mind, wouldn't you just assume it's the Old Gods speaking to you? Then suddenly that God is describing the buildings and walls that you should make to create Winterfell? Hell maybe Bran was the impetus for the First Men to stop fighting the Children, making the "wise" of the First Men aware of what they should be doing.

[FanTasy]

Hmm ... Bran meeting his past ... or being it .... Makes me think about what Coldhands said to Bran: "I'm your monster Brandon Stark".

A monster can be next to something deformed something like an example / preview. Or a mutation, a freak.

A monstrum in Latin is according to wikipedia: <an aberrant occurrence, usually biological, that was taken as a sign that something was wrong within the natural order>

[Sam with Hooters]

mrazny wrote:

Was Bran simply strong enough a skinchanging that he can project past the wall? Or was he specifically able to communicate by using the Weirwood as a relay station for his skinchanging ability?

Since this was the weirwood at Winterfell, and Bran spent all his life near both the tree and Theon, I wonder if that made communication easier? Maybe he can only reach through a tree to someone he already knows well. Also, do we have any proof that he's reaching through to the PAST to talk to Theon? Maybe these communications can take place in "real time."

[FanTasy]

mrazny wrote:

Since this was the weirwood at Winterfell, and Bran spent all his life near both the tree and Theon, I wonder if that made communication easier? Maybe he can only reach through a tree to someone he already knows well. Also, do we have any proof that he's reaching through to the PAST to talk to Theon? Maybe these communications can take place in "real time."

With Theon, maybe. But wasn't there a scene where Bran sees and tries to talk to Eddard? This was after Eddard died, if I recall correctly.

[Silent_Hero]

Time-Paradoxes are very corny and distasteful it is known.

[Lummel]

With Theon, maybe. But wasn't there a scene where Bran sees and tries to talk to Eddard? This was after Eddard died, if I recall correctly.

yes it is when Bran is given the yummy weirwood paste to eat and he follows the weirwood branches for the first time. He sees The Ned and tries to talk to him, The Ned hears something but we don't know what. When Bran tells all this to Bloodraven the old man says that you can't talk to people in the past, he's lost blah, blah, blah, brother, blah, blah, woman he loved, blah etc. (sorry don't remember the precise quote, I haven't had my weirwood paste today).

[mrazny]

Time-Paradoxes are very corny and distasteful it is known.

There're two ways for paradoxes to come into the story. Us as the reader going "that can't happen! That's a paradox!" Or characters in a story can openly talk about and being affected by their opinions of paradoxes. I sincerely doubt the second will happen. If it does come through (which i'm still of a mind it won't), it'll most likely be something like Bran is hoping to change the past, but it's his "interference" that actually leads to what he's trying to avoid, aka it always happened that way.

[mrazny]

mrazny wrote:

Since this was the weirwood at Winterfell, and Bran spent all his life near both the tree and Theon, I wonder if that made communication easier? Maybe he can only reach through a tree to someone he already knows well. Also, do we have any proof that he's reaching through to the PAST to talk to Theon? Maybe these communications can take place in "real time."

My original train of thought is that these are separate abilities; Observe through time and Skinchange through weirwood relays. It's the Ned thinking he heard something that hints these could be combined in some way. The spoiler bit would only potentially confirm that Bran can skinchange using a different weirwood as a relay. Unless we also have Bran observing time through other weirwoods we don't have it confirmed that he can just pick and choose trees to look into the past.

If this ends up being the case, he still could be limited to affecting those near Winterfell's weirwood only, and could be WHY Winterfell is the seat of the North. Like we've talked about before, Winterfell defies typical geography of a capital. It's only it's central location that supports it. So the Winterfell heart tree seeming to be the God tree of the north would be a potential reason (though more likely it's the hot springs).

[Elaena Targaryen]

I like where this is all going and this is the best theory I have read to explain why The Ned heard Bran. It could also explain what Arya heard at Harrenhall, maybe Bran is/was older. See it is still hard to explain but I really do like the way it has been explained. Maybe Bran shouldn't intervene in everything but like the time with Arya she might have been killed if she stayed and maybe she wasn't "meant" to die yet. I have always wondered why Bran saw those specific scenes through the weirwood at Winterfell, you know the ones where we think one might be Ser Duncan, and the old woman doing the sacrifice. I wonder if he should intervene in these moments for some reason and it has already happened. I read a theory that the sacriffice scene may have been involving Bran the Builder wanting the sacrifice to happen so he could start building Winterfell. Maybe Bran hasn't tried to talk to any of these characters yet and we might see it later.

Another thing being disscussed is the seasons. While I do believe it is a magical reason it dosen't mean we can't find a scientific effect. (Black Crow said it better than me) I have a question for those of you that have earned your physics link on your maesters chain. If the "long night" can be explained through the planets movement wouldn't there also be a long day? So if it is years of darkness wouldn't there also have to be years of daylight?

[FanTasy]

Another thing being disscussed is the seasons. While I do believe it is a magical reason it dosen't mean we can't find a scientific effect. (Black Crow said it better than me) I have a question for those of you that have earned your physics link on your maesters chain. If the "long night" can be explained through the planets movement wouldn't there also be a long day? So if it is years of darkness wouldn't there also have to be years of daylight?

Yes, wasn't it told there were summers where multiple crops could be harvested? That there were 'children of summer' who never lived a winter?

I always thought that maybe 'winter' as in 'winter is coming' is not just that it gets snowy and cold, with lots of jolly ice skating.

But that 'winter' equals 'polar night'. When it is continuously dark, nothing grows, everything dies that does not hibernate.

As in the countries near the pole on our world. There is a long night in our days, a period where the sun is continuously beneath the horizon

Maybe there is a Land of Always Summer on Westeros as there is a Land of Always Winter? There are Summer Isles.

[Eyron]

Well, our earth travels around the sun, but not at a completely uniform velocity - it speeds up a bit at the narrow points of its elliptical orbit (I think). I'm just supposing that the ASoIaF world might slow down quite a bit in its orbit - at the solstice points - but I don't think the world's rotation around its axis will stop. In other words, the day-night cycle will continue - and ergo gravity will hold - it's just that the world's path around the sun (the season cycle, if you will) is irregular. Am I making sense? (Disclosure: Astronomy 101 was considered a gut course when I was in college - "Rocks for Jocks" as it was affectionately known. I think I might have scraped through with a "C", iirc!) Anyway, the above doesn't really explain the darkness that spreads down over the world, unless you also add in an increased axial tilt along with the hypothetical slowing/stalling of the orbit.

At the end of the day, you're right in that it probably doesn't matter what exactly is causing the weird seasons, and I doubt we'll get a full-fledged explanation anyway. But it's fun to speculate.

Sorry I didn't mean there is no use to try and figure it out. I am all for the exploring of the possibilities, I just felt like it was futile when I tried to figure it out myself. And there is a big possibility that the Author have not considered all implications of his magical seasons in relation to planetary movement.

But I agree it's the darkness that is the biggest problem, if there is an increased temporary axis tilt so that no sunlight hits the northpole even if the planet keeps rotating, I can imagine it would have consequences on the magnetic field (I am not sure about this) and the moon's orbit. However I think the idea of an increased axis tilt is the only possible explanation for the darkness if we are going for a planetary approach. But it still does not explain how the winter was so long.

There are some major problems with a change in the planets orbital period. Basically it's that if the planet looses speed (to extend the period to a longer time than the average year) it would start falling towards the sun. The opposite case being if the planet's speed increases beyond escape velocity it would continue away from the sun on a straight path in the speed direction. Any trajectories in between the original trajectory of the orbit and escape would set the planet to an elliptic orbit with an increased distance from the sun than before at all points except the starting point of the new orbit trajectory. So this could be what we are looking for to explain the longer season. But to have the orbit trajectory going as far from the sun as it must to have a winter of appr. 13 years I think life could no longer be sustained at the planet at all and all systems would fail. If there is a magical component to prevent this it's possible, but I think it's unlikely, the planet would be too far from the sun.

The other possibility is that the increased tilt of the planet is temporarily fixed so that the south pole is constantly facing the sun (taking the inner track around in the curve) and the north is in darkness, but with the orbit unchanged. I don't know the exact impact this would have on the surface of the planet but from what I know of the complexity of the climate and the ecosystem of earth I think the changes would be apocalyptical.

I'm not gunning for your theory, but these are the problems I have encountered when thinking about it too. It's still fantasy so the ASoIaF universe is a bit more liberal when it comes to science :)

[Elaena Targaryen]

OT but does anyone have ideas on why Varamyr's body did not turn into a wight? I suppose it had more of an impact showing Thistle into a wight, but is Thistle a cover up? Varamyr should have seen his body but only commented on hers and his should have been a big deal. So is it because he was no longer in his body and his soul was in One Eye the wolf? Maybe I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill but this might have an impact in the story, I'm not sure how though.

[Black Crow]

Something which is also worth considering here is just how literal is the description of a Long Night; are we necessarily talking about a generation of actual 24 hour darkness.

I was born and brought up in Aberdeenshire in the north east of Scotland. In summer, and especially if the sky is clear, it never gets dark. We weren't far enough north to get the Midnight Sun but it stayed light enough to go about our normal business so to speak. Conversely, in winter it gets dark. Ordinarily this is mitigated by moving the clocks, but when I was a kid they tried as an experiment not moving them and the result was thoroughly miserable, it meant going to school in the pitch dark and not starting to get light until about 10am. The theory was that this way around it would still be light when it was time to go home and that would reduce accidents because statistically accidents are fewer in the afternoon/evening. It didn't work.

Anyway the point of this little story is that up north the summer day is very long and other than the need to periodically fall over and sleep there's no real difference between night and day. During the winter on the other hand there is a period of daylight but it is very short and can be compromised by heavy cloud cover.

Now so far as Westeros' Long Night goes we're told it lasted for a generation, but if we imagine it as perpetual darkness and snow no-one would have survived for more than a couple of years. What we should really be looking at is a prolonged period of short days with poor weather, just enough to raise subsistence crops and leave some game alive - and yes Old Nan told us about Kings and commoners freezing and starving, but that's what subsistence farming means, just enough food to stay alive but not enough to lay by so that if a crop does fail or if the game moves off there's not enough in the larder to keep going until the next one. It will have been a very hard and miserable existence, there's no two ways about it but it wouldn't have meant 24 hour darkness and snow.

Incidentally, on this generation business. I've commented before on the business of the Night's King supposedly being the 13th Lord Commander and then ruling for 13 years. It occurs to me that the definition of a generation as a unit of time is the period between the birth of a child and the birth of his or her own children. In Westeros that doesn't seem to be so very far off 13 years.

[Eyron]

BC I have thoughts so too, but are the days growing shorter in Westeros? I don't remember if it's been mentioned.

I think you are right it was nothing more than regular winter darkness. Old Nan was speaking with emotion when she told Bran the story of the long night but we are sometimes taking it literally, it was probably winter darkness combined with dark skies as in bad weather. I live at almost the same latitude as Aberdeen (the south of Sweden heh) north and the winters are indeed hard sometimes, going to work and home again in complete darkness, the snow helps since it reflects light so the few hours of daylight feel brighter but you become more tired and some get depressed (but that is not very common).

The problem is the duration of that period. Even in ice ages we would have regular daylight cycles. There would be summer months with long days during the ice age.

Another thing being disscussed is the seasons. While I do believe it is a magical reason it dosen't mean we can't find a scientific effect. (Black Crow said it better than me) I have a question for those of you that have earned your physics link on your maesters chain. If the "long night" can be explained through the planets movement wouldn't there also be a long day? So if it is years of darkness wouldn't there also have to be years of daylight?

I do not have a link in physics ;), but as I understand it, it depends on what scientific explanation we are talking about. If we are talking about a orbit further form the sun or the speed slowed down, the seasons would be longer but the day cycle would be normal. But as I mentioned earlier life would not exist at all if the planet was moved further form the sun, since the whole planet would drop in temperature, consider Mars which year is just 687 earthdays. If the speed drops on the other hand the planet starts falling towards the sun so that would not work scientifically speaking.

The increased tilt angle explanation would not result in a several long year season, but a polar night that lasts the normal winter season, and there would be a long day in the north when summer comes, the opposite would happen in the south. We have no evidence that this has happened though.

The other tilt explanation would be that the angle of the tilt would be constant in relation to the sun, with the orbit normal The north alway leaning away (instead of the tilt angle being constant in relation to the planet's center, like earth) so the north pole of the planet gets no summer at all, any time of the year. The result being polar night on the north pole as long as the change lasts, but days and nights would still exist (always night in the north, always day in the south, days and nights in the centre), because of the rotation. So far that is the explanation I would consider, but I don't like all the loose ends this results in, all the conseqences of this explanation that the Author has not showed us. I also think this explanation isn't very neat.

Maybe there are more ways to explain the seasons with planetary movement but these are the ones I could think of...

[Eyron]

Incidentally, on this generation business. I've commented before on the business of the Night's King supposedly being the 13th Lord Commander and then ruling for 13 years. It occurs to me that the definition of a generation as a unit of time is the period between the birth of a child and the birth of his or her own children. In Westeros that doesn't seem to be so very far off 13 years.

This is something that also intrigues me, I think there could be some connection but I have no idea what it is really. Something to do with a son of the night's king? A generation long winter?

[Ser Leftwich]

OT but does anyone have ideas on why Varamyr's body did not turn into a wight? I suppose it had more of an impact showing Thistle into a wight, but is Thistle a cover up? Varamyr should have seen his body but only commented on hers and his should have been a big deal. So is it because he was no longer in his body and his soul was in One Eye the wolf? Maybe I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill but this might have an impact in the story, I'm not sure how though.

Extending from this idea, the dead bodies that they have chained in the ice cells have not turned to wights. Maybe because the souls were not in the bodies. There were in very close proximity to a weirwood tree or trees.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Extending from this idea, the dead bodies that they have chained in the ice cells have not turned to wights. Maybe because the souls were not in the bodies. There were in very close proximity to a weirwood tree or trees.

Right and everyone else does not have skills like Varamyr so they could not just float around and choose where they go. So being so close to the weirwoods when they die it makes sense that is where they go, if it happens like we we are shown with Varamyr. So gods help them if the "white mist" gets them they will be wights. Good theory it just might work/fit.

Also thanks everyone for explaining the seasons, I just assumed it was night the whole time and never thought any more about it. I guess I should because everything you all said is very logical. @Eria you have now officialy earned for link, so add it to your maester's chain, cheers. :cheers:

[Eyron]

Haha, thanks Elaena! My explanation is really limited since I really don't know much about physics but I'm glad I made sense anyway. At least I learned some stuff myself trying to figure it out :) I hope someone else come up with a better idea than me, cause I'm sure I didn't cover all possibilities.

Extending from this idea, the dead bodies that they have chained in the ice cells have not turned to wights. Maybe because the souls were not in the bodies. There were in very close proximity to a weirwood tree or trees.

My theory on that is since they died in the weirwood grove they were protected because the white cold don't reach there. The godswood in Winterfell didn't burn when Ramsay torched the place, and it didn't freeze when the snowstorm came in Theons chapters. Jojen says to Bran there is power in living wood. It seems to me the free folk think that the trees can offer some protection so it's possible that they actually do just that, against fire and the cold both. I really hope so...