Heresy 5

[Eyron]

If you want science, then all that Iron in the Crypt's etc should have corroded ages ago, also Iron is very common/cheap metal, this why it is mentioned every where.

IIRC the oldest swords had actually rusted away, I think it was Ned that was concerned about this in AGoT. Realistically most of them should be specks of rust, but we never really learn how many were gone as we only get to hear about the top levels of the crypts. It also depends on the humidity and oxygen levels, and we don't know much about that either I think, as that should differ between the different levels of the crypts too.

My personal crackpot theory is that the Others were created by the children, in a sort of a "science project gone bad" scenario. we know the story of the Children trying to stop the first men by chattering the arm of Dorne, then when the Andals came they flooded the Neck (trying to help the first men to hold it?) . We know the children kept retreating North, so what if the next step was creating the Others or something that created the Others, using the old formula of desperate "mage" calling dark forces to save his people, thinking that he can control them.

The theory involves historic inaccuracy, the long night would have to come after the Andal invasion, but I have always thought that Westeros history is too long as it is(which makes little sense, considering the people development), so I'd have no problem shrinking it a little.

Considering that this thread in his fifth iteration, whose crackpot theory I am recycling?

Finally we get your own theory! I remember you said you would give us yours in a thread way back :)

I'm still keeping my options open, and lean towards the Children not being responsible for the white walkers, my original stance, but I recognize the merits of your theory and Black Crow's (which is very similar to yours) since it would make sense for the Children to fight back with magic, as they did with the Hammer of Water supposedly. That would call for a change in the timelines as you say, such as the Pact ending sooner than we think, ending with the long night (combined with a shrinking of the official timeline, the most likely scenario to me), alternatively that the long night occured later (associated with the Andals) but that leaves us with the lack of information of these events from the Andal records of history. So long ago history get's a bit misty as GRRM says, so I think it is still possible.

We have discussed the Battle for Dawn being an Andal invention, mentioned only once in the entire series in the song that Bran recalls "The night that ended" and that the Andal invasion seems to share many traits with religious warfare, especially that they slaughtered all Children they encountered and carved the seven pointed star in their flesh, a bit fundamental.

Many things point towards the Others/white walkers at least making an appearance at some point in time after the Andals had invaded even though they are supposed to have been gone since the long night. Perhaps appearing at several different occasions (both before and after Andal arrival), since there are records of regular steel being useless against their weapons.

As it is I still like the concept of humans causing their own doom from using the power of magic for personal gain...

Has the reeds oath was discussed here already?

Only a little bit, have you got any ideas?

[mrazny]

First longer post, mostly completed before looking at these last few posts...

There is power in a king's blood. In English, what do we call someone of royal blood? We call them a "blue-blood". And we've only seen one group that literally has "blue" blood: the Others. This might be GRRM hinting something here. As has been mentioned in previous threads, there's an excellent chance the Starks descend from the Others. Mel's whole "King's blood = wakes the dragon" spiel might actually be a hilariously misinterpreted recipe for waking some ice dragons via the blood of the Others (which might flow through the veins of the Starks).

I'd be curious to see how the Children react to iron. And have we actually seen the Others interact with iron? Royce was armed with steel, Sam was armed with dragonglass, and I thought Grenn and Small Paul were armed with steel as well, not iron. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong there.)

This a bit into my unknowns on the Crannogs thoughts. BR - Targ - Red eyes. He's got First Men blood, but obviously Targ Blood, which is isn't Classic Westerosi Blood at all. It's either Red just from a general Man of Essos statement, or that the Targs are specifically magical fire (obviously) in a very particular fashion. But I'd guess that could still be Man of the east type, so that a "greenseer" from Asshai would also have red eyes?

Blue-Eyed Bran. Again this is a Northman. It could hint at the Starks being something different entirely, whether a connection to the Others or something Ice Special that's shared with the Others as opposed to from the Others. Or just that Bran is Westerosi Man. I'd like to say that his half-tully makes him a perfect Andal-First Man combo-breed, but the Riverlords aren't neccesarily heavily Andal. They follow the seven for sure, but could have a good piece of First Men heritage still. It's hard to tell since the Tully's are not historical River Kings though, they came into power only after Aegon's Landing. But the Mystical tint has him as specifically Ice, or the non has him as a representation of First Man, Northman, Westerosi Man.

Green-Eyed Jojen... Children-blooded, First Man-Children Half-breed? And that's why his eyes are mystical Green? The Mystical connotations are easy here, the Crannogs are most of Nature, but the "what type of man" part is muted a bit (the non-mystical Ice Fire Nature angle). The issue isn't Jojen's green hints at Children's Blood, it's the common denominator, which is First Man. Which means First Man wouldn't be the reason Bran's eyes are blue. Yes, fair-haired Andal's probably had blue eyes, but that's the mundane color. Essos men didn't have red eyes (and neither did BR when he was young and spry as well). Not all children have green eyes. For Bran's Blue-Eyes to have blood related significance without the mystical connection to his magic type, that means his Andal blood is what's blue. That's inconsistent, which is to mean I don't believe it's a Red-Blue-Green as Targ-Andal-Children blood difference with a First Man common denominator.

I want to explore this angle a bit more: The hint is still blood related, but deeper than the above. It's not just which type of magical connection they lean... I want to explore that the Crannogs ARE the children, but not like Leaf. This angle has these assumptions in my estimation (which of course may need to change). That the Crannogs are not singers. The Crannogs were the first migratory Men, that developed a good relation with the Singers. The Crannogs accepted the wisdom of the Singers. When the "First Men" came, they were mostly battling the Crannogmen, the Pact involved the Singers and their Crannog allies pacting with the opposition First Men. This angle basically entails the Singers always were truly based out of the Cave in the North, and post Pact communicated with the Green Men on the isle. The Wood Dancers of legend were the Crannogs, who had their own wise-men who were closer in nature and ability with the Singers. When the Andals came, it was the Crannogs that they were slaying with abandon, and called "the children". As time passed, the Crannogs were not seen much, and eventually their current appearance didn't carry the weight of the legends enough, and their moniker of the "children" didn't stick since that was an Andal term, not a term in the North. The North didn't call the Crannogs or the Singers "children", so when Andals spoke of the "children", Northmen could easily have applied that to the Singers, who they were aware of. They were allied primarily with the Crannogs and did not speak directly with the Singers, propagating the current 300AL blurring of who was involved with certain legends. The Crannogs similarly distanced themselves from the Northmen to this day.

There are plenty of complications with all of this. Here is one signifier of support. When I was talking about the difference in Northmen versus southron, tall and fair haired Andals is just extra appearance. What I meant was physical stature today is seemingly the same. There was the point that in time First Men and Andals would've married and today the blood is mixed enough to equalize their stature. Here's my complication with that justification; Lady Barbrey.

To take her version of Lord Rickard's Southron ambition as decidedly un-North-like, to me that strongly implies that Ned's taking Catelyn as a wife is the first time the Starks have taken a non-Northern family wife. The Flints and mountain clans would also have been less and less likely to have Andal intermingling. The point being that the Starks would be as pure First Man and non-Andal as it gets. Yet the Starks are never described as slight in stature. Especially with the tiny crannogmen as also presumably of a pure First Man blood. Whether this is even stronger support for the Crannogs to be half-children blood First Men or the Crannogs to be something different than First Men entirely remains to be seen.

[mrazny]

A quick reactive blurb about the nature of the Wall and appearance of the Others the first time...

Going with the Angle that the Crannogs were aligned with the Singers specifically, and the Starks/First Men being a different man... So we're at the Pact. Perhaps the wise Singers, who already had a northern base in a great Weirwood root, decided they should no longer be a presence in the south, and a way to keep them protected and Isolated was to erect the Wall, in a great sense to keep even these peace accord First Men out, or at least a more difficult path. This accord had the Crannogs keeping Old Gods tradition pure in the south, a line of communication between the Green Men and the Singer's in the God's Eye, and some traditions with the Wall to keep the order so to speak. Only men of the Watch could pass through the wall originally, and apparently the First Men were not seafaring, so the sail around part wasn't a needed aspect. Eventually the seafaring would happen and perhaps small bands of adventurers could go north, but not neccesarily large migrations. Eventually, non kneelers, displaced lords, general exiles went North of the Wall to eventually make a Watch necessary to keep up with these men. Only some of them adventured too far. Whether the Singers specifically punished these adventurers with a curse to make them White Walkers, or the reason the Singers wanted them to stay away from the North was some fear that Men would be turned into White Walkers if they traveled too far into the Lands of Always Winter. The Singers tried to save Man from themselves, Man being Man did it anyway.

[Nukelavee]

About eye colours..I don't think green means anything, in that the Lannisters all have green eyes.

The North itself....so, how far north does it go? Anybody bothered to wonder that? Because it doesn't seem like anybody knows much about it. The parts we have seen are all, well, basically boreal forest. What's past that? Tundra? Landscapes like Canada's north (rock, snow, ice).

The Children are intelligent, and non-human. The giants (which I've started seeing in terms of yeti-like), are inhuman and intelligent. So, why not a race of inhuman frost beings?

Also - shadowbinders. So, what are these shadows? just a dark power source? "demonic" beings? Shadow relates to night, and cold, and possibly ice.

Anyways - so, try this one for size: The arrival of the Andals forces the First Men and Children north, further and further (including those who become the wildings). Sooner or later, some tribe (human, children, or giant), moves too far north seaching for territory/homes...and finally attact the notice of the Others. With the Others being SO different from the other races, conflict (possibly because the warmbloods bring the chance of summer, and ruin, to the North).

[Eejit]

The North reaches the polar ice cap, far Beyond the Wall.

[FanTasy]

The North itself....so, how far north does it go? Anybody bothered to wonder that? Because it doesn't seem like anybody knows much about it. The parts we have seen are all, well, basically boreal forest. What's past that? Tundra? Landscapes like Canada's north (rock, snow, ice).

Yes, this has been discussed. The maps in the novels (for instance ASOS paperback Bantam edition) tell us that up North is 'The Land of Always Winter (unmapped)'

[kissdbyfire]

Essos men didn't have red eyes (and neither did BR when he was young and spry as well).

Very interesting post, mrazny! One thing though, isn't Bloodraven an albino? He would have red eyes...

[redriver]

Looking at this one sensibly (I won't use naughty words like logic) the purported timelines are mince. Ygritte tells Jon of a battle that happened "3,000 years ago" quote unquote. Really? Really really? I think we should indeed be looking at a great deal of compression once it starts to get "misty". Nevertheless the sequence of events needs solid evidence to disturb it and so far as the White Walkers are concerned they first appeared during the Long Night and there's no evidence at all that didn't happen after the coming of the Andals.

Your theory does agree with another favourite on the Heresy threads however that it was the Children who unleashed the Long Night as a weapon of last resort in the war against the First Men and that the Last Hero had to seek them out to cry Pax and bring about the Pact. The White Walkers according to that theory are then the winterised version of the Wood dancers.

The point is that there's now pretty broad agreement amongst we heretics that the Walkers are conjured up out of ice which is why they and their swords and armour melt into cold puddles. My own view is that its an extreme form of warging but be that as it may, if they are indeed formed by magic rather than being actual living creatures then somebody has to be using that magic and this late on the story it has to be somebody we've already met rather than the Demon King leaping on to the stage ten minutes before the end - and the only sensible candidates are the Children.

My own theory is that they are sacrificed souls.The Night's King and Craster's activities lead me down this path.

We know that in death the COTF believe the soul goes into the roots,plants,forest.

The only problem with this is that does not provide enough souls to populate a WW army.

But perhaps the slaughter by the First Men-including Weirwoods contributed to this.Not sure how prevalent sacrifice is beyond the wall-unwanted children,law breakers etc.

It would explain why they have a grudge.Magic comes into it too.

[Ser Leftwich]

This talk of geography makes me think of the large tapestry that Dany gets from Xaro in Dance. It was in his family/palace for I think thousands of years. It shows an intact Valyria.

Maybe it will have some salient information about the geography of Westeros or changes that have occurred.

[Black Crow]

The only problem with this is that does not provide enough souls to populate a WW army.

And which army would that be?

We haven't exactly seen many Walkers and nor if you go back to Old Nan's story do there ever seem to have been hordes of them. Old Nan tells of them leading hosts of the slain which aint the same thing - and in the fight at the Fist in amongst that army of Wights we only encountered the one that Sam killed. There could have been more of them, but we really do seem to be talking about individuals and little groups rather than an icy version of the Golden Horde.

[redriver]

And which army would that be?

We haven't exactly seen many Walkers and nor if you go back to Old Nan's story do there ever seem to have been hordes of them. Old Nan tells of them leading hosts of the slain which aint the same thing - and in the fight at the Fist in amongst that army of Wights we only encountered the one that Sam killed. There could have been more of them, but we really do seem to be talking about individuals and little groups rather than an icy version of the Golden Horde.

Not sure where I got army from.The series seems to generally foreshadow an attack by a mass of WW.

Dany has a vision of confronting a host of ice armoured soldiers at the Trident.

And why build and ward such a huge wall if it's only a few WW to fear?.I wonder too if they take people who get stuck in storms and are about to die of hypothermia etc.

It seems they've had 8,000 years to augment their numbers.

[mrazny]

Very interesting post, mrazny! One thing though, isn't Bloodraven an albino? He would have red eyes...

I'd love some extra chime in and support, but I believe in the Mystery Knight he's not described as being red-eyed. Or perhaps the description escaped my attention entirely. In anycase, I'm possibly wrong that he wasn't red-eyed in his younger years. It also possible that the wiki-picture skewed my view of BR, since it isn't prominently red-eyed, kind of a dark muted color that easily can look non-red.

[Black Crow]

Not sure where I got army from.The series seems to generally foreshadow an attack by a mass of WW.

Dany has a vision of confronting a host of ice armoured soldiers at the Trident.

And why build and ward such a huge wall if it's only a few WW to fear?.I wonder too if they take people who get stuck in storms and are about to die of hypothermia etc.

It seems they've had 8,000 years to augment their numbers.

Ah well that's what the Heresy threads are all about. There's a certain expectation amongst a lot of readers that a massed invasion is imminent - but not in the text

[kissdbyfire]

I'd love some extra chime in and support, but I believe in the Mystery Knight he's not described as being red-eyed. Or perhaps the description escaped my attention entirely. In anycase, I'm possibly wrong that he wasn't red-eyed in his younger years. It also possible that the wiki-picture skewed my view of BR, since it isn't prominently red-eyed, kind of a dark muted color that easily can look non-red.

Oh, I will chime in eventually, but I'm still trying to analyse things from your post and doing a bit of research on very few scattered bits of info here and there. I just re-read your post and thought, not for the first time, about the green men... I mean, we have the GREENSEERS and the FIRST MEN and then we get the GREEN MEN (sorry bout the caps), but could this be a labradoodle kinda thing?

As to BR, the bit below is from "The Sworn Sword":

"Across his cheek and chin spread a wine-stain birthmark that was supposed to resemble a red raven, though Dunk only saw an odd-shaped blotch of discolored skin. He stared so hard that Bloodraven felt it. The king's sorcerer had turned to study him as he went by. He had one eye, and that one red."

[Black Crow]

It could have been red and bloodshot of course...

[kissdbyfire]

It could have been red and bloodshot of course...

Do you mean like a hangover or conjunctivitis? lol

He's an albino, his eye(s) is red...

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Category/C91/

[Capon Breath]

You Heretics are too fast for me to keep up! I havent anything to add to the theories but was re-reading ACoK Jon chapter where they first reach Crasters. Jon Notes....

[Dywen said Craster was a Kinslayer, liar, raper and Craven, and hinted that he trafficked with slavers and demons. "And worse," the old forester would add, clacking his wooden teeth. "Theres a cold smell to that one, there is."]

You may have discussed this when you discussed Crater but struck me as interesting for 2 reasons, First the reference to something "worse" than Demons given the post a few above talking about th sudden appearance of the previously unheralded demon king. Secondly the use of "a cold smell" (cold is italic in the book) do we see cold used in ths way anywhere else? Eg referencing something sinister evil. Like when Anne Widdecombe said theres "something of the night" about Michael Howard.

[Nukelavee]

Eigit, FanTasy - that was pretty much my point, we don't know anything about the furthest North. Which is why I mentioned Canada - I know our northern geography, and, frankly, the story doesn't include anybody who mentions anything like what we find there. Frozen snow filled forests is what we have seen - that leaves out the areas of tundra and packice/icecap.

That's a lot of territory, enough to hide a huge amount in, in conditions that none of the intelligent races, or anything they warg, could expect to get to.

An army of Others? Maybe, but far more likely is a number (maybe large) of Others "leading" a huge force made up of every dead body to ever fall, and not be burnt. Bodies don't rot that far north, and wights don't seem to need to be in good shape to be raised.

Which is another question - how intact does a body need to be to be raised?

[Lummel]

... was re-reading ACoK Jon chapter where they first reach Crasters. Jon Notes....

[Dywen said Craster was a Kinslayer, liar, raper and Craven, and hinted that he trafficked with slavers and demons. "And worse," the old forester would add, clacking his wooden teeth. "Theres a cold smell to that one, there is."]

You may have discussed this when you discussed Crater but struck me as interesting for 2 reasons, First the reference to something "worse" than Demons given the post a few above talking about th sudden appearance of the previously unheralded demon king. Secondly the use of "a cold smell" (cold is italic in the book) do we see cold used in ths way anywhere else? Eg referencing something sinister evil. Like when Anne Widdecombe said theres "something of the night" about Michael Howard.

I assumed the 'and worse' refered to having children by his daughters, giving the sons to the Others and raising the daughters to be his future sex slaves. A Demon King would seem less worse than that to me.

'cold smell', the old timers fear the White Cold as we see in AGOT prologue, so maybe there is something about Craster Dywen associates with that, something like the smell of snow in the air?

[redriver]

Eigit, FanTasy - that was pretty much my point, we don't know anything about the furthest North. Which is why I mentioned Canada - I know our northern geography, and, frankly, the story doesn't include anybody who mentions anything like what we find there. Frozen snow filled forests is what we have seen - that leaves out the areas of tundra and packice/icecap.

That's a lot of territory, enough to hide a huge amount in, in conditions that none of the intelligent races, or anything they warg, could expect to get to.

An army of Others? Maybe, but far more likely is a number (maybe large) of Others "leading" a huge force made up of every dead body to ever fall, and not be burnt. Bodies don't rot that far north, and wights don't seem to need to be in good shape to be raised.

Which is another question - how intact does a body need to be to be raised?

To your last point I would say in tact enough to be useful,no point in wighting a two legged horse.

Getting back to Craster and his sacrifices,I recall an old lady of Craster's keep describing the Others as "his sons come back".And if abandoned by humanity/life itself why wouldn't they have a chip on their shoulders.

You could probably write a doctoral thesis on the nature of sacrifice in ASOIAF,but put simply I see it as the ultimate abomination.And ironic if the sacrifices themselves dispense the justice.Just Ice.

The Mayans and Aztecs practice of human sacrifice and belief in prophecies were major contributors to their downfall.