Heresy 5

[Black Crow]

I'm not sure that the greenseers are primarily seers. Bran for example used to see things in greendreams. The difference as I understand it is that greenseers can not only see but manipulate if not control things, which is why they need a fresh new and powerful greenseer, especially if he's needed to do something about Winter.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

If this story is playing with Samhain, it would last more than a night wouldn't it? If say this is a 13 year winter coming, and winter *should* be a 3 month season, one night in fall would be now potentially 49 days. Anyways, i don't think this is what GRRM is drawing upon or having a Samhain like event that allows the WW to appear, but i guess its on the table. We only have two confirmed by POV sightings and others talking about them which very well could've been the mind playing tricks on them or blatant lying to justify running away from a fight.

On the Norse-Celtic thing, I agree. If Philology is a combination of literary, history and liguistics, GRRM has very specifically not drawn upon all three from any one RL source. Linguistics-wise, everything does sound very Norse. The shape of Westeros *looks* more British, and the First Men before Andals has a very Celtic-Roman vibe. But the legends don't sound very Celtic. Westeros does not have a history with Gods making appearances (and perhaps thats the Andals doing). None of the "Heroes" sound like Cu Chulain or seem to reflect on any of the Ulster stuff in Ireland at the very least. Irish Celtic probably doesn't have much (and is the only thing i have a rudamentary exposure to). The Bran-Raven stuff DOES have some good interplay.

The only lesson I think could apply to Westeros from Celtic-Christian Irish mythology is this. The early christians changed the history just ever so slightly. They took actual legends and just barely tweaked them to make them not just more Christian, but actually Christian. I'm struggling to name names right now, but there are actual recognized Saints that strong scholarly evidence points to them living well before Christianity came to Ireland.

Not that we need more layers to consider, but the First Men ditched their Gods for the Old Gods. What were those original gods? Drowned God, Rh'lor, other?

Why would Andals say they invaded in 6000 instead of 4000? Just to give themselves more history? Or to make certain loved folk heroes from 6000-4000 be remembered as Andals or of the Seven instead of First Men and the Old Gods. In Ireland this wasn't seen as a subversive or horrible motive blurring of the history, but as a bridge to connect the old and the new.

From the beginning I associated the Long Night with the months of darkness that occur during Winter in the Arctic circle. I just thought there was an obvious connection between a particularly bad Winter and an extended period of darkness. Like old Nan said, during the Long Winter children were born and died all under darkness.

Regarding Celtic deities, while the Celts have tons of stories about their divine or semi-divine heroes, going around, warring and forging alliances like normal people, it must be remembered that the Celtic religions were kind of unique in the extent to which they anthropomorphized their Gods. There's a lot of evidence that the Dagda is actually a remnant of an older religion in Ireland, while the other Tuatha de Danaan came in a later wave. Anthropomorphizing also leads to the melding and amalgamation of actual people and Gods, if those people, war leaders, Kings, etc had attributes attributed to a deity. This is why it was so easy for Christianity to appropriate some Irish gods and goddesses; the stories about them seemed so human that just the slightest tweaking removed all religious elements, and Brighid the maiden goddess could become Saint Bridget.

We're making huge leaps here when we make a direct analogy between the religion of the Children or FM (we don't know what their original religion is), and Celtic religions. But working within those parameters for just a second, if we assume the two are similar in some key aspects, i.e their views of a continuous and circular time, reverence for the entire cycle including night, winter, and death, being particularly connected to the earth and cycle of seasons (I know this last point is super vague), you can see how parts of the Andal religion might be appropriations of the Old religion.

For example the Andal religion contains the triple goddess, Maiden, Mother, Crone (Spring, Summer, Winter; planting, growth, harvest; birth, blooming, death, all of that lovely circle of life stuff). There's also that mysterious Stranger. Where did the Andals get these specific faces of the Seven gods, were they always there, or did they make up a few upon arrival in Westeros, inspired by local practices and a desire to convert the local population?

For your timeline question, I completely agree that there's a huge possibility the Andals were pushing back the date of their arrival en masse in order to legitimize their link and claim to Westeros. They may be using the 6000 year date because that's when the first tiniest trickle of Andals began moving that way, or a few individuals made it, or they could be pulling the date out of their butts because it sounds nice and lends credence to the idea that they are truly well and established in that land.

[Elaena Targaryen]

I’m just playing around with some of the things that have been discussed. A few things jumped out at me. Btw, I love it when all of you talk about the folklores and mythologies, I am not as familiar with them and it all makes sense. First the “hellhound” black shuck, and Shaggy Dog. I think that seems very spot on, good catch. It is hard to say from that if he is supposed to be a malevolent force and Rickon as well or maybe some type of guardian.

I agree that we should be a little more curious concerning the motivations of the COTF. I have always wondered what benefit they receive from all of this greenseer stuff. Yes they can manipulate things, but why do they want to, aside from the coming “winter”. The children have been watching always, why, what do they need all of this info for? Like it appears that Bran, Bloodraven, and the children have taken an interest in Theon. I get he has been near weirwoods, but why the attempts of communications? I would think they would have wanted to try with other characters so it stood out to me, and I know it seems they have been involved with Jon. In the sample chapter there are things that have peaked my interest even more regarding this, but it can have explanations. In short it may be that they have more stuff going on than we realize.

The religions are always interesting. What was the religion of the First Men? Could they have been followers of Rh’llor and this is why the Night’s Watch vows are worded as such? Could this be how the Night’s Watch started, a separation of religions? The NW side guarding the old ways of Rh’llor and the others embracing the new way with the Old Gods? It does seem very possible and it was so long ago who knows what the Rh’llor religion might have been like at that time. It does make you wonder though, if it was Rh’llor what would they have thought during the Long Night?

Now the Drowned God possibility fits well with the timeline but there do not seem to be any connections, are there? I am curious about Nagga’s Bones and the Grey King; do we know how long ago it is claimed this all happened? The Grey King supposedly reigned for a thousand years-COTF or WW? The seas dragons bones always made me wonder and it’s a little off topic. What time period was the sea dragon around and why are the bones described different than the other dragon bones, white instead of black, right? Is it because it was a sea dragon or an ice dragon, but an ice dragon may melt the same way the white walker melted. I have only been curious because Nagga is the only other type of dragon we see.

Now, I’m not sure how to tie my thoughts together here so forgive me if it sounds crazy. If the Andals started as Rh’llor followers could this help explain the time discrepancy of their arrival? Could they have started to arrive 6000 years ago as Rh’llor followers, then either converted to the seven 4000 years ago, or changed to the seven before the full out migration, a lot can change in 2000 years. Something else occurred to me, the seven is in no way associated to magic. You would think a religion like this would be less tolerant then we see them. Point in case, they eradicated the children and the weirwoods from the south, but we hear nothing of persecution of First Men, who follow the Old Gods. Ok, I’m thinking in connection to the burning of “witches” that has happened in RL. If they were originally Rh’llor then they would certainly not want to burn anyone with the conversion, but might want to burn those connected to magic if not. It’s just something that popped in my head because I have always been horrified by the RL burnings.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

The Children are awaiting the promised one who will return balance to the Force Nature The World ....something.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

I think the Children are, or think of themselves as, the guardians of the natural world, and so they maintain a watch to . . . well, maintain the balance, for lack of a better term.

There's a unifying element in all the magics, but I think that element is blood, not light, dark or fire. Blood magic may not be as esoteric as certain practitioners (Mel) would like the world to believe -- after all, one of the girls at the Happy Port can taste blood and "read" a person, like Maggy the Frog.

As for the religion of the Drowned God, imo its mantra "what is dead never dies, but comes back harder and stronger," contains some hint about the wights and the undead who are proliferating with the reintroduction of magic into the world. It may be that only Patchface, truly touched by the "god," knows the secret, or it may be that the knowledge that saying represents has been lost.

[Black Crow]

Just a couple of points enlarging on some of the above. The fact is we don't know what the religion of the First Men was before they adopted elements of the Children's beliefs but that in itself reinforces the parallel with the Celts who were very quiet on the matter, hence the oath "I swear by the Gods my people swear by" - this drove the Romans crazy.

As to Bran, I suggested above that the Children needed a new, strong greenseer, and it occurs to me that there is a very explicit parallel here with Bran the Blessed of the Mabinogion. That Bran was also crippled (in the fight by the cauldron) and declared "A maimed king is a blighted land; therefore another and not I must be King of the Island of the Mighty. So this is my command to you; strike off my head and take it with you to London, and bury it there in the White Mount with my face looking to the sea. For so long as my head is concealed there, no foreign people shall take away the Island from the Britons."

Turn to Bran Stark and we find him maimed and unable to walk, as was Bran the Blessed. His head is still attached to his body but again like Bran the Blessed he is now buried in the mount - to protect Westeros.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

The above post by Black Crow is just amazing and BY FAR the best and most accurate comparison between anything in asoiaf and RL mythologies I have ever read. I think GRRM is going to subtly subvert that trope of stigma against malformed people though. Maybe he already did it by having Bran keep his head attached to his body while being the potential saviour of Westeros

[Eyron]

Agree, that was an excellent parallel BC!

It made me think of the times the supposedly Bran and Robb (or maybe Jon but I don't want to bring that discussion of the wolf-head king here) have been seen in visions, with wolf-heads. It is probably not related but that is what my mind strayed to when reading BC's post.

It also made me think of the crypts (I do think about them a lot :)) and that there always must be a Stark in Winterfell.

I have not come up with a neat theory for it but I think it could be related to the protection of the north as a whole.

In AGoT maester Luwin compared Winterfell with a huge stone tree, gnarled and twisted branches spreading further over the years, with it's roots going deep into the earth. I think that was an early hint at the magic that Winterfell holds, the connection to the Children and the importance of a Stark staying there. It made me think that the "roots" of Winterfell use magic from the earth, like I imagine the weirwoods do. Maybe there must be a person to control that, someone to control the trees, like a greenseer. Or maybe it has something to do with the bones kept in the crypts, maybe they needs to be protected or protected against. The story of "Bran the blessed" made me think that there actually is the bones of a Bran down there, the builder I assume, and that's why Winterfell must not fall in the hands of others, just like the Bran in the Tower he must always be there.

I'm not sure that "there must be a Stark in Winterfell" means there must be one (alive) physically, but that Winterfell must not fall in the hands of another (like the Boltons!) but I am also open to the possibility of the ghosts in the crypts sensing when the Starks are missing too...

[Ibbison from Ibben]

The religions are always interesting. What was the religion of the First Men?

I can think of three examples that seem to describe the religion of the FM before they adopted the CotF's religion.

1) aDwD p126, when Davos is on Sweetsister.

"Storms were sacred on the Sisters before the Andals came. Our gods of old were the Lady of the Waves and the Lord of the Skies. They made storms every time they mated."

2) aCoK, the description of the building of Storm's End, mentions the sea god and the goddess of the wind

3) the Iron Islands, with the Drowned God and the Storm God.

This seems to point to some sort of pantheon based on nature elements. It's interesting that the first two sources see these two gods/goddesses as allies, while the Ironmen make them opponents (and both male). I think it is likely there were more gods in the pantheon for other forces, but we haven't heard of them.

[Eyron]

I'm not sure that the greenseers are primarily seers. Bran for example used to see things in greendreams. The difference as I understand it is that greenseers can not only see but manipulate if not control things, which is why they need a fresh new and powerful greenseer, especially if he's needed to do something about Winter.

I think you are onto something here.

The Children are very close to nature, nature has no motive (in my opinion) so maybe the greenseers that are Children "loose" themselves and their purpose when they are connected to the trees? Like you say they need a fresh new greenseer, but maybe because humans are more internally focused and will keep motivated to do what needs to be done.

Someone suggested on this thread before that they need a human since humans will fight, like Bran thought. I think that could be the reason why. Not that the Children are pacifists but that their own greenseers can't keep focus, that they would accept whatever fate and not resist it.

I reminded me of the hobbits and the ring, they did not fall for temptation (most at least) and resisted the ring where no other [edit: most others could not] could. Maybe that's where the humans come into it in this story.

[kissdbyfire]

I can think of three examples that seem to describe the religion of the FM before they adopted the CotF's religion.

1) aDwD p126, when Davos is on Sweetsister.

2) aCoK, the description of the building of Storm's End, mentions the sea god and the goddess of the wind

3) the Iron Islands, with the Drowned God and the Storm God.

This seems to point to some sort of pantheon based on nature elements. It's interesting that the first two sources see these two gods/goddesses as allies, while the Ironmen make them opponents (and both male). I think it is likely there were more gods in the pantheon for other forces, but we haven't heard of them.

Yes, interesting. I’ve been thinking for a while now that all these previous religions based on nature elements as you put it have something to do with the CotF skinchanging into birds, fish and all sorts of animals and interacting with the FM in one fashion or another and being (initially at least) perceived as gods and goddesses.

[FanTasy]

Black Crow, your post about Bran's head having to be at a specific place to be effective makes me think about that 'war room' of the Children at Moat Cailin. As I said in earlier posts I suspect their greenseeers were destroyed when the Children's Tower at Moat Cailin was destroyed.

I think they were at this specific place because something had to be done there, to be the most effective. The fighting force of the Children had to be gathered at the Neck, but the enemy found and destroyed them.

I think there is a reason why Bran had to be brought beyond the Wall. Something has to happen there, to be the most effective.

Bran was shown where to go in his crow dreams, Jojen and Meera were sent to him to educate and assist him further, Coldhands was sent to get Bran through the Black Gate at the Nightfort.

Bran being beyond the Wall could well be that from this particular spot he can be the most effective to secure for whatever the goals are of the Children. Maybe to protect the Wall, to tear it down, to hold back the forces of Winter, x, y, z.

Apart from war rooms the Children seem to have 'watch and listen-rooms'. Some kind of CIA- of FBI- monitoring facility. Not unlike the 'listening ears', the radio telescope network we know,

The people in the cradles seem to be the radio telescopes.

In Arya's story it is implied that there could be an abandoned 'watch and listen-room' at this place where Beric and the Hound fought.

I strongly suspect other 'watch and listen' rooms are at that isle in the God's Eye, at Greywater Watch (Howland Reed in charge of intelligence there) and somewhere near Crackclaw Point, maybe Claw Isle.

It would fit that the Children have their bases and find their strenght in earth and water. So their strongholds are in the earth and on isles in the water.

This importance of earth and water fits with the oath of Jojen and Meera, earth and water as well as ice and fire. And there is the ability to change earth into water ETA associated with the crannogmen.

I suspect Bran will be used not only as a greenseeer but as a weapon, like the greenseeers in the Childrens Tower at Moat Cailin.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Let's assume the Children are what they seem and they want to help Bran. They enable him to meet Bloodraven, to further educate him in developing his rare talent as a green-seeer.

What's in it for them?

The traditional, non-heretical answer would be that, like the first Long Winter, the upcoming second Long Winter is a threat to the CotF that they need Men's help to defeat. They may specifically need a Stark. Bran will be a reprise of the Last Hero. (Bran has a leg up on the first Last Hero, though, because he listened to Old Nan's stories. He managed to find the TEC and the CotF before his friends, horse (Hodor) and dog (Summer) died. So the moral of the story is: Listen to the Stories.)

Will this make Bran the Second Last Hero or the Last Last Hero? I guess it depends on how well he does the job. :D

[Lummel]

In AGoT maester Luwin compared Winterfell with a huge stone tree, gnarled and twisted branches spreading further over the years, with it's roots going deep into the earth. I think that was an early hint at the magic that Winterfell holds, the connection to the Children and the importance of a Stark staying there. It made me think that the "roots" of Winterfell use magic from the earth, like I imagine the weirwoods do. Maybe there must be a person to control that, someone to control the trees, like a greenseer. Or maybe it has something to do with the bones kept in the crypts, maybe they needs to be protected or protected against. The story of "Bran the blessed" made me think that there actually is the bones of a Bran down there, the builder I assume, and that's why Winterfell must not fall in the hands of others, just like the Bran in the Tower he must always be there...

Theres a parallel I think between the Stark in Winterfell and the lair of the children of the forest, both living amongst the bones of their ancestors and this sense of rootedness (is that a word? Well it is now) . Winterfell is described in this organic way, you have this sense of it growing into the landscape and this idea is literally represented in the lair (den, burrow) of the children with the weirwood roots growing down, in and amongst the children - don't they look like bones when Bran first sees them? It links to this idea that some fine heretics have been expressing from time to time of Westeros as being a body and the children and to a lesser extent perhaps the Starks grow or connect into this and are an organic part of it.

By contrast the Targaryens are cremated and the Tullys are returned in a burning boat to the river.

[FanTasy]

Theres a parallel I think between the Stark in Winterfell and the lair of the children of the forest, both living amongst the bones of their ancestors and this sense of rootedness (is that a word? Well it is now) . Winterfell is described in this organic way, you have this sense of it growing into the landscape and this idea is literally represented in the lair (den, burrow) of the children with the weirwood roots growing down, (snip)

By contrast the Targaryens are cremated and the Tullys are returned in a burning boat to the river.

Great catch about the earth (and bone) 'rootedness' of the Starks and the roots of the Tully's.

A Stark joining with a Tully, produced what seems to be a green-seeer with extraordinary capabilities, born once in a thousand years.

The bones of the Starks are given to the earth.

The Tullys are strongly connected to water, they are burnt after death and their ashes given to water.

Bran is created by the joining of 'earth' and 'water'?

I think we could grasp more and more the real importance and meaning of what the Reed children were saying when they pledged to Winterfell, the Starks ... and to Bran. :rofl:

ETA As an afterthought. Bran as a son of 'earth and water', Jon as a son of 'ice and fire' . This pledge of the Reeds is getting more and more interesting. Could it have old, very old roots? Could it be the pledge the Children made to the Starks in the olden days, that it was part of the deal when the Wall was raised?

And as a second afterthought. If so, this is a nice analogy with Rhaegar trying to produce a bloodline to obtain strength. The Starks with their joining House Tully and - involuntary maybe - tapping off the Targaryen bloodline may have succeeded where Rhaegar failed.

[Lummel]

...The bones of the Starks are given to the earth.

The Tullys are strongly connected to water, they are burnt after death and their ashes given to water.

Bran is created by the joining of 'earth' and 'water'?

...This pledge of the Reeds is getting more and more interesting. Could it have old, very old roots? Could it be the pledge the Children made to the Starks in the olden days, that it was part of the deal when the Wall was raised?

And as a second afterthought. If so, this is a nice analogy with Rhaegar trying to produce a bloodline to obtain strength. The Starks with their joining House Tully and - involuntary maybe - tapping off the Targaryen bloodline may have succeeded where Rhaegar failed.

Oh interesting, I had been thinking along the lines of the Starks being rooted but the Tullys as alien, but your take allows us to link to something like the four elements

so Bran is the physical union of earth and water while Jon (if R+L=J) would be the union of fire (or maybe air) and earth.

[hotweaselsoup]

Just a couple of points enlarging on some of the above. The fact is we don't know what the religion of the First Men was before they adopted elements of the Children's beliefs but that in itself reinforces the parallel with the Celts who were very quiet on the matter, hence the oath "I swear by the Gods my people swear by" - this drove the Romans crazy.

As to Bran, I suggested above that the Children needed a new, strong greenseer, and it occurs to me that there is a very explicit parallel here with Bran the Blessed of the Mabinogion. That Bran was also crippled (in the fight by the cauldron) and declared "A maimed king is a blighted land; therefore another and not I must be King of the Island of the Mighty. So this is my command to you; strike off my head and take it with you to London, and bury it there in the White Mount with my face looking to the sea. For so long as my head is concealed there, no foreign people shall take away the Island from the Britons."

Turn to Bran Stark and we find him maimed and unable to walk, as was Bran the Blessed. His head is still attached to his body but again like Bran the Blessed he is now buried in the mount - to protect Westeros.

Great analysis, Black Crow.

Although, if we look at this from the point of view of the Children, maybe Bran has been buried to protect them [the Cotf, the Others] from being overrun by men? It seems that the history of the Children so far has been one attempt after another - the broken Arm of Dorne, Moat Cailin - to keep the foreign invaders out. Each attempt has failed, and the Children seem to have been pushed further and further north. Is the Wall their third attempt to keep men out?

For all their talk of "dwindling", I think the Children are still fighting to keep their lands - their last refuge, if you will - away from men. The wildlings live above the Wall, but not in any organized way. They raid and hunt, but they do not seem to raise crops or clear land. And every few hundred years or so, a King-Beyond-the-Wall brings them all together for an attempt to break through the Wall. If Mance and his horde are the example, then we can assume that earlier attempts were also organized in response to harrowing by white walkers. The wildling hordes amass and rush south, where they are promptly beaten back by the Night's Watch and/or the Stark in Winterfell and his allies. In effect, the herd is thinned, and the end results is fewer wildlings north of the Wall. Fewer men north of the Wall.

The Black Gate allows men through the Wall, but only the select few who have sworn an oath. At least in the early days of the Wall, it seems that no other men could pass through into the lands north of the Wall.

Also, if you look at Hardhome - which threatened to become the first really organized wildling settlement - that place was destroyed completely. Big sign that "men are not wanted here"?

Looking at the other examples of dispossessed peoples in the books, we have Nymeria and her Rhoynish, and the escaped Valyrian slaves who found refuge in Braavos. Both Nymeria and the slaves found safety in putting a body of water between them and their enemies: Nymeria fled across the Narrow Sea and burned her ships behind her; the slaves hid in a secret lagoon, and built a city of islands. In essence, both peoples put a moat around themselves. The broken Arm of Dorne and Moat Cailin both seemed to be attempts to erect a water barrier between the CotF and the enemy. The Wall, too, is a water barrier; I think it's a frozen moat.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Great catch about the earth (and bone) 'rootedness' of the Starks and the roots of the Tully's.

A Stark joining with a Tully, produced what seems to be a green-seeer with extraordinary capabilities, born once in a thousand years.

The bones of the Starks are given to the earth.

The Tullys are strongly connected to water, they are burnt after death and their ashes given to water.

Bran is created by the joining of 'earth' and 'water'?

I think we could grasp more and more the real importance and meaning of what the Reed children were saying when they pledged to Winterfell, the Starks ... and to Bran. :rofl:

ETA As an afterthought. Bran as a son of 'earth and water', Jon as a son of 'ice and fire' . This pledge of the Reeds is getting more and more interesting. Could it have old, very old roots? Could it be the pledge the Children made to the Starks in the olden days, that it was part of the deal when the Wall was raised?

And as a second afterthought. If so, this is a nice analogy with Rhaegar trying to produce a bloodline to obtain strength. The Starks with their joining House Tully and - involuntary maybe - tapping off the Targaryen bloodline may have succeeded where Rhaegar failed.

This...I love it, great thinking!!!

[Eyron]

Theres a parallel I think between the Stark in Winterfell and the lair of the children of the forest, both living amongst the bones of their ancestors and this sense of rootedness (is that a word? Well it is now) . Winterfell is described in this organic way, you have this sense of it growing into the landscape and this idea is literally represented in the lair (den, burrow) of the children with the weirwood roots growing down, in and amongst the children - don't they look like bones when Bran first sees them? It links to this idea that some fine heretics have been expressing from time to time of Westeros as being a body and the children and to a lesser extent perhaps the Starks grow or connect into this and are an organic part of it.

By contrast the Targaryens are cremated and the Tullys are returned in a burning boat to the river.

Yes I absolutely think the burial traditions of the Starks come from the Children, I even think there are Children's caverns beneath the godswood, that the crypts are part of those.

If I am right about the Starks having Children ancestors then this would be as it should, and it could even mean that ideally there must be Children where there are weirwood roots, but I think there is something more to it. For some reason the Starks don't just throw their bones in there like the children, they have a different ritual so something is amiss I think.

The emphasis on a Stark being i Winterfell is really hammered in so I think the Stark must have a specific purpose other than sitting under the hearttree, because as far as I know there has not been any Stark connected to that tree. There has been no hint of that so far.

____

About the burial traditions, I have thought about the Tullys also. The First men traditions involve returning the matter to the element but the Tullys send a burning arrow to set the boat afire so we don't know how much remains to be returned to the river. I think the Ironborn have burials at sea, their respective element. That the Targaryens burn their bodies could be either seen as returning to their element - or a break in the cycle of matter. That is why I think lord Rickard's burning could be important but perhaps just symbolically. Did his bones survive the fire? He has a tomb in the crypts in any case.

I think the oath that the Reeds say to Bran is from the pact, or when the crannogmen allied with the Starks, but perhaps it's from when the Children helped the First men survive the long winter. It's origin has to do with the ideology of balance that I think the Children believe in. I don't want to retell everything I have said on the matter but I think it's a clue to some important things. Some thoughts I have:

Earth and Water - the Children, the matter of life, flesh and blood. Earth and water are probably two sides of magic.

Bronze and Iron - the humans (First men and Ironmen/Andals), civilization, peace and war. Possibly two sides of magic.

Ice and Fire - the Others (both kinds)/Targaryens, magic of life, seasons, death and birth. Definitely two sides of magic.

I believe with many that the Children have access to the magic of earth and water, and I think than humans were trying to compensate being less powerful by using ice and fire magic. I think that unleashed powers that were once balanced or joint.

There is also mention of bronze having protective power (Bronze Yohns armor) or magical power in general (bronze bands with magic runes, Mance's horn) and we know the Others supposedly hate iron, lightbringer is supposed to be magic steel which is mostly iron, there are the iron swords in the crypts too.

All these elements need to be "reforged" = balanced, methinks...

It could be interpreted by columns too:

Earth, Bronze, Ice - Earth magic, First Men, Ice-magic (Others? Death-cults?)

Water, Iron, Fire - Water magic, Ironmen alt. Andals, Fire-magic (dragons? Red priests?)

"Earth, bronze and ice" feels like it does not need much explanation. This interpretation is one thing that enforces my belief that the First Men at some point used ice magic.

But from "water, iron and fire" I think the Ironmen have a more prominent role in events than we mostly give them credit for, they traditionally used iron (whenever that began) which needs both water and fire in forging. Their god of choice is the Drowned god, the god of seas, who sailed the seas with a sword and flame... Killing and paying the blood price in the "old way". His enemy is the Storm god, (from the other side of Westeros) who's animals are said to be ravens (a CotF from the Stormlands? Storms end was said to have been built by a Child, or Bran the builder as a child...)

Yeah, some random stuff... :)

[mrazny]

Regarding Celtic deities, while the Celts have tons of stories about their divine or semi-divine heroes, going around, warring and forging alliances like normal people, it must be remembered that the Celtic religions were kind of unique in the extent to which they anthropomorphized their Gods. There's a lot of evidence that the Dagda is actually a remnant of an older religion in Ireland, while the other Tuatha de Danaan came in a later wave. Anthropomorphizing also leads to the melding and amalgamation of actual people and Gods, if those people, war leaders, Kings, etc had attributes attributed to a deity. This is why it was so easy for Christianity to appropriate some Irish gods and goddesses; the stories about them seemed so human that just the slightest tweaking removed all religious elements, and Brighid the maiden goddess could become Saint Bridget.

I guess I have the excuse that it's been 8 years since, but I remember loving my Celtic Mythology course, I shouldn't be forgetting these things. I'm also forgetting the name of Cu Chulain's weapon, but our teacher described it as a harpoon he throws with his toes, that literally impales his opponent from behind, that's a wicked curve...