Ibbison from Ibben Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Question, some of you was discussing how the different types of magic that we see might be connected. Do you think it might be possible that the children can use glamors?A big yes. For all the reasons you listed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elaena Targaryen Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 A big yes. For all the reasons you listed.Any ideas on a juicy way they could or have used it? And do you think it's in anyway connected to warging, from a magical perspective? It could be how they taught the First Men maybe, you know something like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elaena Targaryen Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 It does seem a bit odd to me that there were seven kingdoms before the andals came and still seven kingdoms before the targaryens came. Not sure if it's a big deal, maybe its just one of those westerosi history is a bit murky kind of things...Thank you for pointing that out, I agree it's probably a murky history and we may never know. Also I like all of your thoughts on all things AA, I have the same thought process concerning AA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotweaselsoup Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 Indeed I was going to mention Aegon. Of itself his remark was interesting at a time when it seemed obvious that the Others were the bad guys. Now, as this proposition is a lot less certain his remarks take on a lot more significance.As to the cold; there's no question that it kills and by comparing what we know of the Ice Dragon and the White Walkers little doubt that it comes with them or can come with them, but again reference to the Ice Dragon suggests it isn't evil per se. If, according to Old Nan, the White Walkers kill every living thing it isn't because they dismember babies for fun, but because everywhere they go they are accompanied by an intense cold - which destroys dragonsExcept in Old Nan's story the white walkers"swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through the frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children."It's hard to see these creatures as anything but evil, at least as described by Old Nan. (Although it's interesting that her story speaks of the Others feeding babies to their dead servants. We've heard stories about the Others drinking blood, but have we ever seen a wight eat anything? Coldhands doesn't eat, as far as I know...)Do the Others ride on Ice Dragons? Or perhaps, some special "breed" of Others that we haven't yet encountered? (It would clarify where the term "white walker" came from---to distinguish between the Others who fly and those who don't).The Ice Dragon constellation is mentioned a few times. The first time by Osha, who is telling Bran how to find the way north: "The way's easy. Look for the Ice Dragon, and chase the blue star in the rider's eye." The second time is Bran recollecting Osha's advice, but he remembers the blue star as belonging to the dragon, not its rider: "The blue star in the dragon's eye pointed the way north, as Osha told him once."From Osha's description, it would seem that the Ice Dragon has a blue-eyed rider, which makes me think that wildling lore at least includes some stories of Others riding ice dragons.I like your idea that "white walkers" came about to distinguish them from the "white riders". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanTasy Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 BR was in love with Shiera Seastar, her mother from Lys and from Valyrian nobility. It has been said Shiera and her mother practiced “the dark arts.” Also Shiera wore a jewel necklace to compliment her eyes, but I think it being a “famous” necklace could hint at something else. So BR could have different abilities from several sources, but maybe or maybe not. Maybe he taught this to the children, who knows, it’s hard to guess.Melisandre wears a jewel to compliment her eyes ... that ruby at her throat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanTasy Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Ow thank you Black Crow HotWeaselSoup for the text bits about the Ice Dragon constellation. I always had a hunch it was not just some nice writing. Follow the blue eye and you get to the north, follow it even further and you get to the heart of winter, the pole. Is 'our' Polaris a blue-looking star? I live in a city but sometimes go to a place where the skies are not polluted with lights and watch the stars. Polaris seems a bit red to me.If so, nice touch that GRRM made the Westeros Polaris blue :cool4: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elaena Targaryen Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I don't know anything about the Ice Dragon (is that the name?) story so...can only certain people, maybe connected to ice, ride the ice dragon. I ask because isn't Jon the only one talking about ice dragons...so I wonder if Old Nan told Jon the stories for a reason...Jon deffinately brings up references to ice dragons a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Val the Wildling Princess Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I don't know anything about the Ice Dragon (is that the name?) story so...can only certain people, maybe connected to ice, ride the ice dragon. I ask because isn't Jon the only one talking about ice dragons...so I wonder if Old Nan told Jon the stories for a reason...Jon deffinately brings up references to ice dragons a lot.Yes he does think about the ice dragon a lot. Speaking of this, how possible would it be that Jon himself is an "ice dragon" if he is indeed the son of R+L? (not a real dragon, of course, you know what I mean :D ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elaena Targaryen Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Yes he does think about the ice dragon a lot. Speaking of this, how possible would it be that Jon himself is an "ice dragon" if he is indeed the son of R+L? (not a real dragon, of course, you know what I mean :D )Exactly, because Targs refer to themselves as dragons, and Jon being half 'dragon' and half 'ice'(?) I love it!!! I have always wondered if Mel waking a stone dragon, meant something with Jon and R+L but I just didn't know how it could work. I really love the Jon is the ice dragon idea!!! :bowdown: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevengeOfTheStarks Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 The Ice Dragon constellation is mentioned a few times. The first time by Osha, who is telling Bran how to find the way north: "The way's easy. Look for the Ice Dragon, and chase the blue star in the rider's eye." The second time is Bran recollecting Osha's advice, but he remembers the blue star as belonging to the dragon, not its rider: "The blue star in the dragon's eye pointed the way north, as Osha told him once."From Osha's description, it would seem that the Ice Dragon has a blue-eyed rider, which makes me think that wildling lore at least includes some stories of Others riding ice dragons.Adara, the original rider of the Ice Dragon, is also blue-eyed right? Adara is an actual human but she has really strange qualities, like being able to ride the Ice dragon without melting it. That's why I was originally wondering if her character could shed some light on the NK's Queen, a blue-eyed being of some sort with whom a human could fall in love. Adaa is also supposed to be a little cold on the inside too, lacking in emotion, and she wants to run away to the Lands of Always Winter, which just about every other person in the World thinks is a frozen hell full of ice demons or something.If there are any clues to the nature of a non-evil white walker-like being, I think it might lie in Adara. Yes he does think about the ice dragon a lot. Speaking of this, how possible would it be that Jon himself is an "ice dragon" if he is indeed the son of R+L? (not a real dragon, of course, you know what I mean ) For now I also think that there are no real Ice Dragons in this story, possibly just Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Thank you all for this topic. This has been blowing my mind for a few days and making me think all the harder.Just a few tidbits that I have come up with that I have not seen:Euron has a connection with Bran and BR in that he is also maimed. There is something about his eye. Euron also has been to the East and has his magicians in his boat.Also, on the timetable of events, it comes up that the last Kingsmoot was over 4,000 years ago or 2,000 (courtesy of Rodrik the Reader) and that the house that was the kings of the Iron island before the Andals came was House Greyiron. The question of CotF and going/retreating north, that being north of the Neck or north of the Wall. This could be tied to the idea of cold preserving. If the CotF are (possibly have been for a while) resigned to dying, wouldn’t it make sense to go north to be preserved as long as possible. This is assuming that the CotF, at least the ones with Bran and BR, want to help humans.How long has the tradition of sending criminals to the Wall been around? At some point maybe they got sent to the other side of the Wall and not to join the Watch. (A pretty weak idea.)Why is Winterfell called Winterfell? Maybe some sort of deal was made there that halted winter at some point. Maybe there was more than one Pact. (This idea is really, really thin.)In general, I would like to complement all the contributors to this thread, great topic, wonderful well backed arguments, civility towards others, and it will never, ever degrade into what people think about how Rhaegar felt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo1 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Could the wildlings sealed north of the wall been a sacrifice to the others? And/or Could this have been part of the pact? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elaena Targaryen Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Since it's question time, lol and this is most certainly not my first, lol...What do we know about Symeon Star Eyes?The wiki says he once visited the Nightfort where he saw hellhounds fighting.Ok, first he was blind, so maybe it was before he put sapphires in the sockets...blue sparkly eyes like the others, or more jewels like glamors...mmm...Then wtf are hellhounds? Are they direwolves or something else...mmm...http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Symeon_Star-Eyesbtw, I liked the thoughts in the last two posts, like the children and cold perserves, WF, Euron and the Iron Island stuff, the criminals being sent north of the wall, and the sacrifices idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 Adara, the original rider of the Ice Dragon, is also blue-eyed right? Adara is an actual human but she has really strange qualities, like being able to ride the Ice dragon without melting it. That's why I was originally wondering if her character could shed some light on the NK's Queen, a blue-eyed being of some sort with whom a human could fall in love. Adaa is also supposed to be a little cold on the inside too, lacking in emotion, and she wants to run away to the Lands of Always Winter, which just about every other person in the World thinks is a frozen hell full of ice demons or something.If there are any clues to the nature of a non-evil white walker-like being, I think it might lie in Adara.For now I also think that there are no real Ice Dragons in this story, possibly just JonI have to stress that I've only read the original story which may or may not differ from the kids version in any important way, but:Adara is a bit "strange" in that she was born during a very cold winter and that there's cold inside her, making her very solemn and serious. Not only does this cold mean that she can first touch and then ride the Ice dragon every winter but there's some kind of link between them which is why, eventually, the dragon comes to save her in the summer.There are no doubts hinted at or expressed over her parentage but she does sound as though she might be a literary prototype for the Ice Queen, and, aside from the obvious, she also sounds a bit like Jon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 Since it's question time, lol and this is most certainly not my first, lol...What do we know about Symeon Star Eyes?The wiki says he once visited the Nightfort where he saw hellhounds fighting.Ok, first he was blind, so maybe it was before he put sapphires in the sockets...blue sparkly eyes like the others, or more jewels like glamors...mmm...Then wtf are hellhounds? Are they direwolves or something else...mmm...All that we "know" is there and given the way most people react to direwolves, equating them with the "hellhounds" sounds plausible.As to Simeon Star Eyes, I claim no credit for the remembering the fact that as somebody pointed out, sapphires are bright blue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo1 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Don't go all deep and literary on it BC, but throw some knowledge on my thought on the wildlings being the descendants of sacrifice. Not saying I agree with everything you say, but you engage in some deep thought on this shiznit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elaena Targaryen Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Don't go all deep and literary on it BC, but throw some knowledge on my thought on the wildlings being the descendants of sacrifice. Not saying I agree with everything you say, but you engage in some deep thought on this shiznit.http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/60746-heresy-4/page__st__100post #110 on page 6 hotweaselsouphws said something similar equating it to Jurassic Park, I thought it was a neat idea so I wanted to find it for you, but if you check the previous threads it may have been discussed, or it might be a good time to start discussing it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elaena Targaryen Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I have to stress that I've only read the original story which may or may not differ from the kids version in any important way, but:Adara is a bit "strange" in that she was born during a very cold winter and that there's cold inside her, making her very solemn and serious. Not only does this cold mean that she can first touch and then ride the Ice dragon every winter but there's some kind of link between them which is why, eventually, the dragon comes to save her in the summer.There are no doubts hinted at or expressed over her parentage but she does sound as though she might be a literary prototype for the Ice Queen, and, aside from the obvious, she also sounds a bit like Jon...Thank you Professor Crow, I was trying to ask earlier if she was similar to Jon and would the ice dragon be connected to or only let some one like him ride it, but we got kinda girl crazy with Jon and him being the ice dragon, so thanksAnd what do you mean by Ice Queen (I really need to read this story!!!) like the Night's King queen and if so can you explain that a little further since I haven't read it, I don't mind spoilers and it sounds important/connected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 I was just referring to the Night King's cold Queen - gotta dash, work beckons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 Double post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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