Heresy 5

[Elaena Targaryen]

I like the connections and ideas put forth concerning the religions, it adds some realism to the story. I don't know why some have an issue with it because I don't see that it could have any big impact on the over all story. It seems more like back-ground coloring and I prefer that to have some realism, not only misty, magical, unexplained things.

ETA

Yes FanTansy, what is going on with Mance and the Children? Or should I say not going on.

[Black Crow]

Just to clarify things on Gendel's Children. I don't believe for a moment that some of the Children are descended from Gendel's people. I think its a pretty straightforward legend arising out of the fact that Gendel was last seen seen saying follow me and disappearing into an uncharted cave, and then since the Wildling's know there's something nasty down there in the bones and the dark they terrify their own children by linking the two. Pretty standard folklore stuff.

What I am suggesting is that since we were presumably told the story for a reason, there may be a connection in that it was the Children who showed the way through the caves in the first place and that the battle is connected with the disappearance of the Children, both from the North and from friendly contact with the Wildlings. Gorme and Gendel and their people were dead or scattered, leaving just Joruman and his followers who had helped that Stark of Winterfell to defeat them.

What happened to Joruman is another matter. I know somebody came up with a theory that his descendents are the Mormonts, but Mance and his people were looking for his grave up the Milkwater, so presumably he and his people got expelled too in the end because they wouldn't bend the knee to Stark of Winterfell and that's why the Watch started holding the Wall.

[Francis Buck]

Not sure if this has ever been discussed before in these threads, but I've long been partial to the idea that the "zombies" such as UnCat and UnBeric are in fact something akin to "baby Others". In other words, the Others are simply humans that have continuously used resurrection magic (which they're obviously rather fond of) over thousands and thousands of years, until eventually they "lost all the fire of life" and became what they are now. This goes hand-in-hand with the idea that there isn't really different "types" of magic, and that its connection to the various religions is mostly just an arbitrary concept made up by humans. So magic is really just one "thing", and it's simply used in different ways. I think is at least partially supported by the fact that most magic comes in only few forms, with slightly different applications, primarily involving either prophecy and fortunetelling, or the manipulation of life/death. Prophecy magic includes the greenseers, fire-watchers, the visions of the Warlocks, and Maggy's blood magic, while death magic includes the Other's necromancy, R'hllor resurrections, and again blood magic in the form of Mirri Maaz Durr (plus whatever the hell's going on with Gregorstein, which I assume is also probably some form of blood magic)

Obviously there are some exceptions, such as warging, glamouring, and Mel's shadowbabies, but nonetheless I don't think it's a coincidence that we see many of the same types of magic, spread out across different forms and methods. I think it's all the same stuff, it's simply being manifested in a different way. I also think this would explain why there are characters like UnCat and UnBeric in the first place. At the very least, it seems odd to me that GRRM would bother including this aspect of the plot at all, if it didn't serve some important role later on. It would make even more sense if we end up seeing Jon getting resurrected, since then we would have two "Starks" that have become undead. I also suspect the "blue-eyed" aspect of the Wights is more related to be their being under the control of the Others, rather than their undeath itself. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Coldhands doesn't have blue-eyes, despite having features otherwise identical to the Wights. I think this implies that once the "link" of control is broken, then the Wight's eyes go back to normal and they simply become a regular plain-old undead.

The biggest difference between the Other's necromancy and the R'hllor resurrections is that, in the latter case, the people are not really "undead" in the typical sense. For example, once Beric has been brought back to life, he still suffers from all the same weaknesses as a normal human (thus his multiple deaths). On the other hand, the Wights are practically invulnerable; they can be stabbed, disembowled, lose limbs, even be torn apart, and still remain animated. I'd theorize that this may simply be the fact that they are still under the control of the Others, so as long as a Wight is being "influenced", it continuously remains animated. A good way to prove this would be to see if Coldhands can be "injured" at all. I don't believe we've ever seen him suffer from any wounds that would be fatal to a normal human, so that's up in the air.

Regardless, I'm convinced that there's some kind of important connection between the resurrections performed by Red Priests, and the necromancy used by the Others. Exactly what this connection is, however, is difficult to say.

[Lummel]

But we are not sure if the WW come in the winter, or if they actually bring the winter. Sam isn't sure; neither are his sources, apparently. If the WW bring the winter, then killing them would indeed turn back winter. And WW aren't all that hard to kill, once you figure out how to do it. The clear implication is that the CotF gave the Last Hero the knowledge that dragonglass kills the WW and fire destroys the wights.

The children of the forest giving the last hero knowledge of dragonglass and of fire as weapons is not a clear implication of old nan's story. Old Nan's story implies nothing about the nature of the outcome of the quest - the only clear implication from it is that the status quo of successful human societies and summer were restored -somehow (otherwise Old Nan wouldn't be there telling the story to Bran).

That I think is the nub of the problem, nothing is clear.

GRRM tells the story in a certain way to lead you towards certain conclusions - in this case the story opens with the white walkers killing a man so the idea of them and humans as violent antagonists is established in our minds. When later we read Old Nan's story naturally we put those two pieces of information together, and when Sam kills a white walker with his dragon glass dagger we add that to the mix and then we see Stannis, in the place of the reader, coming to the obvious and very logical conclusion that on The Wall they need to arm themselves with dragonglass and dragonstone should be mined for all the dragonglass it can produce to be able to defend themselves against the White Walkers.

Personally I see this as GRRM leading us up the garden path, because I don't expect the production and supply of dragonglass weapons to be the central event of the last few books. And I think on one or two occasions GRRM does set up expectations for his readers that he then subverts or even violently overturns.

For me there are two groups of questions about the existential threat to human life. Firstly what does Bran see in the heart of Winter (or what is the heart of winter? Or is the heart of Winter anything more than the bare minimum implied by those words ie just plain old winter as we know it from life but so prolonged that it becomes a threat to all life). Secondly Old Nan says in her story that it was the first time that the white walkers appeared. The first time. My question is therefore are the white walkers natural (do they eat, drink, sleep, reproduce etc like goats or giants or any other living thing) and have they always been there, a social creature capable of war against humans, or are they magical in original created by somebody for an explicit purpose? I think the description of the melting of a White walker implies that they are magical in which case killing them will not resolve the threat because they are not the threat they are just the tool of the something that created them in the first place.

The white walkers bringing the winter and killing all the white walkers ending the winter is a certain type of story. It means that in the last couple of book a big effort is arming sufficient soldiers with dragonglass weapons and killing all the white walkers. End of story.

Alternatively the Winter brings the white walkers and the problem is how to end the winter. That to my mind is more interesting if only because it is a much more mysterious notion at this point. My assumption is that is the direction GRRM is going to go, but it has to be said that I only think that because I think GRRM likes to mess with his readers and lead us up the garden path and surprise us.

ETA, long post, Blaggh, sorry.

[FanTasy]

ETA, long post, Blaggh, sorry.

But an excellent one!

[Black Crow]

I've just re-read the Ice Dragon again and would urge anybody who hasn't done before so to beg borrow or steal a copy now because while it pre-dates A Song of Ice and Fire its pretty obvious that GRRM has developed certain aspects of it in the current narrative, particularly in regard to Ice - and the nature of Ice magic.

[FanTasy]

I've just re-read the Ice Dragon again and would urge anybody who hasn't done before so to beg borrow or steal a copy now because while it pre-dates A Song of Ice and Fire its pretty obvious that GRRM has developed certain aspects of it in the current narrative, particularly in regard to Ice - and the nature of Ice magic.

Har ... I tried to download the text - but no luck. And if it would have worked the site looked not very legit. So it's up to buying or borrowing.

[FanTasy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJG_CUwkUjw

A short interview with GRRM discussing The Ice Dragon

[JayDubya]

You're right. I think it is fascinating how much knowledge is 'alive' among the wildlings. From Osha Bran practically learns more than from Maester Luwin. Jon learns a lot about the history of the Night's Watch and the Wall from Ygritte. I wondered why GRRM is using this pattern.

It could be a convenient writer's conceit - rather than having to bring in 'Basil Exposition' to explain everything to every character, he could just be filling random character's heads with just the right amount of knowledge at the right time to move the plot forward, set up atmosphere, backstory, etc.

[JayDubya]

Alternatively the Winter brings the white walkers and the problem is how to end the winter. That to my mind is more interesting if only because it is a much more mysterious notion at this point. My assumption is that is the direction GRRM is going to go, but it has to be said that I only think that because I think GRRM likes to mess with his readers and lead us up the garden path and surprise us.

It would totally not surprise me if the white walkers are a symptom of a larger problem, such as 'Winter' (which could be another name for 'The Great Other').

And I would be very surprised if the battle for Westeros (and humankind) is won primarily by force of arms. In other words, it doesn't matter how much dragonglass the humans have and how much they mine. The true war will be fought and won (bitterly, with heavy losses of the 'good guys') by a relatively small number of heroic figures, not by a mass of soldiers. More specifically - military victories will be necessary, but not sufficient, for humans to win.

[Lummel]

I largely agree with your second paragraph but just wanted to say that I think the notion of 'the great other' is very problematic because who believes in the great other? - Melisandre. Melisandre as we know IS NEVER WRONG & all of her judgements are always SPOT ON AND EXACTLY RIGHT! It is known.

One of the old favourite threads on this forum that crops up from time to time is are the gods in Westeros real? If there is no R'hllor then is there a great other? Is the whole idea another delusion?

On the other hand Melisandre is fixated on Bloodraven and Bran as the Great Other(s). We know they are key parts of the weirwood network of the collective consciousness of the children of the forest - if they are the great other then that points to the proud heretical idea that the opposition is between the children and men with their funny new religion.

But then again maybe she is wrong. We know what she says to Davos - an onion can't be half rotten, it's either good or its bad, but we also know that GRRM spends a lot of time telling us that Westeros is more complex than that.

[Black Crow]

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=aJG_CUwkUjw

A short interview with GRRM discussing The Ice Dragon

Ah, didn't realise he'd expanded it - I was talking about the original version - nevertheless some intersting comments in that interview about reversing the perception that cold is necessarily bad.

[Black Crow]

I largely agree with your second paragraph but just wanted to say that I think the notion of 'the great other' is very problematic because who believes in the great other? - Melisandre. Melisandre as we know IS NEVER WRONG & all of her judgements are always SPOT ON AND EXACTLY RIGHT! It is known.

One of the old favourite threads on this forum that crops up from time to time is are the gods in Westeros real? If there is no R'hllor then is there a great other? Is the whole idea another delusion?

On the other hand Melisandre is fixated on Bloodraven and Bran as the Great Other(s). We know they are key parts of the weirwood network of the collective consciousness of the children of the forest - if they are the great other then that points to the proud heretical idea that the opposition is between the children and men with their funny new religion.

But then again maybe she is wrong. We know what she says to Davos - an onion can't be half rotten, it's either good or its bad, but we also know that GRRM spends a lot of time telling us that Westeros is more complex than that.

Mmm... all I'd add to that is GRRM's statement somewhere along the line that there will be no personal appearances by deities, so even if R'hllor and the Great Other do exist the story will not be resolved by killing either or both of them.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

About Gendel. I agree it is foreshadowing and pressing on the meaning of the bones in the caves of the children. Although I can see that someone (Jon, or parties at the Wall using the underground roads to flee the Wall) might stumble over some pretty scary stuff.

What I'm not getting clearly is how the wildling oral history sees the Children of the Forest.

They seem to be named in a pretty neutral way. Not as enemies or horror creatures. But ... neither as the good guys and helpers of men.

What I find a bit weird is that with all the stories told by Ygritte there is none that explicitely regards the Children of the Forest (if I recall correctly). The children that are named are Gendels children.

Jon isn't asking specifically though. His interest is clearly more in the giants - and in Ygritte.

Now that I'm thinking about it Mance Rayder doesn't name them either? Gotta look this up, though.

That could be a little weird too. He has invested years and years in rallying up all people to either save them or use them for another goal he may have and has not revealed yet. Surely he must know about the Children? He had a wildling mother and probably was raised with the same oral history as Osha and Ygritte.

Bran is the one who gets that the children are important. He specifically says this in AGOT and asks information about them in the scene with Maester Luwin before the raven arrives that announces Ned's death.

My impression that the children are generally hidden from mankind, no matter what faction, but that the Wildlings have an inkling that they're still around because they share a common territory, and more common (though very distant) history than other men. Still, the not naming them thing seems kind of important, if only in a literary sense. The term "Others" is vague and invokes a sense of the unknown, misunderstood, and foreign. The fact that the only names we know for the Children are names given to them by outside groups makes them seem very "other" to me.

Even if Mance thought to look for the Children, I doubt they'd let him find them. Only the Last Hero *coughBrancough* succeeds in finding the Children after all, even when they were more abundant and supposedly lived south of the wall ;)

I largely agree with your second paragraph but just wanted to say that I think the notion of 'the great other' is very problematic because who believes in the great other? - Melisandre. Melisandre as we know IS NEVER WRONG & all of her judgements are always SPOT ON AND EXACTLY RIGHT! It is known.

But then again maybe she is wrong. We know what she says to Davos - an onion can't be half rotten, it's either good or its bad, but we also know that GRRM spends a lot of time telling us that Westeros is more complex than that.

HAHA, yes.

Mel is full of sh*t. I don't think she's ever cooked with an onion in her life, an onion CAN SO be half bad. Sometimes only one side, or only a few isolated layers are bad and you can cut them or peel them out and use the rest of the good, white, crunchy onion flesh. In my book this is definitive proof that she is wrong about everrrryyything. But I wouldn't expect Mel to understand the concept of half-anything, she's a very all or nothing kinda person.

Ok back to serious sleuthing: In the Ice Dragon (which I have not been able to get my hands on so correct me if I'm wrong) there are wars between dragon riders. The fire dragons are hampered by their inability to thrive in the cold of the north, right? Could the unleashing of the continental winter in asoiaf have anything to do with the threat of invasion by Valyrians, and in turn could the lack of invasion by Valyrians at the height of their power have something to do with the unleashed winter?

[Black Crow]

The ordinary dragons can't stand the cold so only go flying around in the summer. This sounds like Dany's Amazing Dragons may not turn out to be quite so amazing once Winter comes. On the other hand when its hot the Ice dragon melts - steadily shrinking. It can however "bring" cold with it which is why it manages to turn up to rescue Adara during the summer, albeit shrinking fast.

[Quift]

finally catched up reading up on all the heresy thrads. puh, great stuff.

About Gendel's Children Im a bit surprised to see that noone noticed the shout out to Beowulf.

Gendels children - Grendels mother, the grendelkin.

ie, the trolls, the others, the bearers of the mark of cain (outside of christendom)

Goes very well with the other scandinavian/anglo-saxon theme, and beowuld would have been central for an anglo-saxon writer.

[FanTasy]

In the dungeons of Internet you can read what I think is the first chapter of the Ice Dragon. I got the impression that the Ice Dragon not only 'brings' physical cold, but that it is attracted / lured to coldness of another kind, more metaforical . That could build up nicely and become a cycle that is hard to break :devil:

[FanTasy]

finally catched up reading up on all the heresy thrads. puh, great stuff.

About Gendel's Children Im a bit surprised to see that noone noticed the shout out to Beowulf.

Gendels children - Grendels mother, the grendelkin.

ie, the trolls, the others, the bearers of the mark of cain (outside of christendom)

Goes very well with the other scandinavian/anglo-saxon theme, and beowuld would have been central for an anglo-saxon writer.

Good catch! I watched one of the movies recently and read up some about Beowulf. Yeah, definitely some connections here.

[tze]

What happened to Joruman is another matter. I know somebody came up with a theory that his descendents are the Mormonts, but Mance and his people were looking for his grave up the Milkwater, so presumably he and his people got expelled too in the end because they wouldn't bend the knee to Stark of Winterfell and that's why the Watch started holding the Wall.

If we're looking for descedents of Joramun, I'd look to Tormund. He gave all of his children names derived from his own, and I think it's interesting how "Tormund" has several bits in common with "Joramun". Perhaps this kind of naming tradition was a rather ancient family tradition? He inherited ancient armbands covered in runes from his father---I'd be very curious to discover what those runes actually said. And Tormund's current status seems set up to echo that of Joramun in several ways---he's currently the leader of the wildlings south of the Wall (since Mance isn't present), he's allying with Jon, who might very well end up as the Stark in Winterfell, and I think he's probably going to end up opposing Stannis (and Mel), who as many have pointed out, could end up as the new Night's King. (Not to mention, he's nicknamed "Tormund Horn-Blower" and "Breaker of Ice"---Joramun blew the Horn of Winter, something which stories say can bring down the Wall.)

The ordinary dragons can't stand the cold so only go flying around in the summer. This sounds like Dany's Amazing Dragons may not turn out to be quite so amazing once Winter comes. On the other hand when its hot the Ice dragon melts - steadily shrinking. It can however "bring" cold with it which is why it manages to turn up to rescue Adara during the summer, albeit shrinking fast.

This is what I've always thought, especially since the bit of the AA prophecy detailing the coming of "the cold breath of darkness" screams "ice dragons ahead!" to me. (Not to mention, Jon at one point remembers Old Nan telling him stories about ice dragons, and come on. It's Old Nan.) And with the arrival of winter, I would think "fire" dragons would be at a far greater disadvantage pretty much everywhere in Westeros, environment-wise, than "ice" dragons. (The only possible exception would be Dorne, but if a new Long Night falls, Dorne will freeze with the rest. We know how incredibly cold it is at night in the desert, so if the sun never rises, cold would reign in Dorne as well.)

Although this brings up another point: the AA prophecy speaks of someone "wak[ing] dragons from stone". But it never says what kind of dragons will be woken from stone. The Others are sometimes said to have been "sleeping beneath the ice". Maybe the ice dragons have been sleeping alongside them? Just a thought. I think it would be hilarious if Ms. "Cold is evil! Fire is good!" Mel turns out to be obsessed with a prophecy that actually talks about the "waking" of dragons which bring ice and cold to the world.

About Gendel's Children Im a bit surprised to see that noone noticed the shout out to Beowulf.

Gendels children - Grendels mother, the grendelkin.

Grendelkin = Gendelkin = Grumkin, perhaps?

Still, the not naming them thing seems kind of important, if only in a literary sense. The term "Others" is vague and invokes a sense of the unknown, misunderstood, and foreign. The fact that the only names we know for the Children are names given to them by outside groups makes them seem very "other" to me.

It is extremely odd that Leaf tells Bran what humans call them, what Giants call them . . . but never what the Children call themselves.

Ok back to serious sleuthing: In the Ice Dragon (which I have not been able to get my hands on so correct me if I'm wrong) there are wars between dragon riders. The fire dragons are hampered by their inability to thrive in the cold of the north, right? Could the unleashing of the continental winter in asoiaf have anything to do with the threat of invasion by Valyrians, and in turn could the lack of invasion by Valyrians at the height of their power have something to do with the unleashed winter?

We were initially told that the ancient Valyrians were shepherds who found dragons in the 14 Fires only 5,000 years ago, but Ran mentioned way back that GRRM has indicated to him that the Andals came to Westeros fleeing the Valyrians, which might indicate that Valyria was actually active way earlier than we've been told.

Here's my question: has anyone in-story actually said that Azor Ahai fought against the Others? Are there actual stories of him fighting the Others? Stories of him being specifically associated with the Long Night? Nobody who's read the "Azor Ahai will be reborn" prophecy ever associates AA with a battle against the Others---not the Red Priests in Volantis, not the Targaryens, not even Mel herself (initially). As so many have noted, Azor Ahai is a character apparently unknown in Westeros. Rather than say that AA is an analogue of the Last Hero, perhaps Azor Ahai actually had nothing to do with Westeros or the Long Night at all?

I've wondered if perhaps he was actually the mythical founder of the Valyrian empire. The mythical character who founded a fire-centric empire would certainly be associated with the end of "cold and darkness", but perhaps AA is not associated with fire because he had anything to do with the Long Night, but he's associated with ending "cold and darkness" simply because he originated Valyrian dragontaming and thus, became heavily associated with fire. The story of him using Lightbringer to melt a creature's eyes and burn it alive can have dragon connotations, and rather than say that means fire dragons were used against the Others, I think this might simply be an analogue for how the Valyrians began using dragons to battle their enemies, as we saw Drogon melt the slavers' eyes. In that case, the AA Reborn prophey would be about the person destined to rebuild Valyria, not the person destined to defeat the Others.

[Quift]

And the beowulf connection holds up even better under closer inspection, or what do you say of beowulfs parentage. Him being of the line of Wulfings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wulfings

Wiki - "The Wulfings or Ylfings (the name means the "wolf clan") was a powerful clan in Beowulf.#