Heresy 5

[hotweaselsoup]

Interesting posts, Professor and mraz!

//tiny little derail: FanTasy's post about the wrestling Stark who joined the Second Sons made me realize that both Ned and Bran are second sons. I wonder if this is why Bloodraven was so particularly interested in their births? With all this talk about one Stark in Winterfell, and possibly one on the Wall, plus the sacrificing, plus the 100 kingdoms/100 dragonglass daggers/100 wildling hostages that Jon takes, why does the "second son" feel like the important one to this story?

///derail #2: last thread I went out on a crackpot limb and proposed that the "ice spiders" might be tree roots, and the "white walkers" were called such because they were weirwoods that walked. I'm at the Ironborn vs. The Shrubbery battle in my Dance re-read, and, when Asha is standing on the walls of Deepwood Motte and watching the mountain clans approach in their ghillie suits, she remembers a story she was once told about (I'm paraphrasing) when the children of the forest were at war with the First Men, the greenseers used the trees as warriors.

///end derail, gotta run, but can't wait to read more of your theories when I get back!

[Kennit]

I'll quote Eira's post from last thread because something just hit me:

Could it be that the Nights King allied with the Others to extend his rule and life, sacrificing others to them instead of himself to the earth?

What if he sacrificed his own children(king's blood) to the Others? Maybe that's the reason all records of him been destroyed(kinslaying is a grave insult to the Old Gods[or is it just incest?]).

[FanTasy]

And I stumbled upon the title 'Light', strangely enough in relation to ... Cersei, it is one of her titles, I'm going to look it up.

Okay, it is in the wiki here mentioned as 'alias'. Compared to Robert's alias 'The usurper'.

That doesn't feel right, it sounds like an official title:

AGOT Sansa V:

It's the first court session of Joffrey's reign.

A herald hails Joffrey as "King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, and Lord of the Seven Kingdoms."

And then he halis Cersei:

"All hail his lady mother, Cersei of House Lannister, Queen Regent, Light of the West, and Protector of the Realm."

Doesn't sound to me like something to do with Joff being under age, as is the 'Queen Regent' and 'Protector of the Realm'.

Where does this 'Light of the West' come from?

Her father is 'Warden of the West', would this make his daughter be a Light? This sounds not very convincing to me.

But if so, was Sansa the 'Light of the North'?

Well, I suspect this bit has nothing to do with the mysteries of the Nights King or the origin of the Wall, so let's forget it for this thread.

Just something I noticed, now that I can read the novels after all the previous reads without too much getting 'into the story'.

[FanTasy]

I'm at the Ironborn vs. The Shrubbery battle in my Dance re-read, and, when Asha is standing on the walls of Deepwood Motte and watching the mountain clans approach in their ghillie suits, she remembers a story she was once told about (I'm paraphrasing) when the children of the forest were at war with the First Men, the greenseers used the trees as warriors.

I enjoyed that bit! Read it as a message that the children used the trees as a weapon of war and as a double homage (Treebeard in LOTR and the attack of the Ents; and of course Macbeth).

[Black Crow]

///derail #2: last thread I went out on a crackpot limb and proposed that the "ice spiders" might be tree roots, and the "white walkers" were called such because they were weirwoods that walked. I'm at the Ironborn vs. The Shrubbery battle in my Dance re-read, and, when Asha is standing on the walls of Deepwood Motte and watching the mountain clans approach in their ghillie suits, she remembers a story she was once told about (I'm paraphrasing) when the children of the forest were at war with the First Men, the greenseers used the trees as warriors.

An intriguing thought, but I think its actually a memory of the Wood Dancers, wearing their stealth armour:

In place of mail, they wore long shirts of woven leaves and bound their legs in bark, so they seemed to melt into the wood.

The obvious implication is that the pesky little varmits kept jumping out of what had appeared to be an innocently empty grove of trees and that what appeared to be a simple tree actually had an "invisible" Wood Dancer leaning up against it or sitting in its branches

[mrazny]

Beyond that, to return to Mrazny's point above, I don't believe that the Seven aspects of the Andal faith and the Seven Kingdoms are co-incidental and that the Andals' original belief in the Lord of Light was adapted thus for political reasons (hence Davos regarding Mel as a heretic, just as in our world Catholics and Protestants although both professing their belief in Christ regard each other as heretics). The cunning point of this being that there are only six Andal kingdoms, not seven which hints once again at some kind of deal with Stark of Winterfell - yes we will have peace, but you must expel the Others and allow the Faith to be practiced north of the Neck

The seventh non-andal dangerous kingdom, definitely feels like the inspiration for the stranger. Though the stark in winterfell could've become king out of need to repel the invasion and incidentally caused issue with the night's king as opposed to some deal with the andals bringing it to that breaking point. Though NK and the forging of the kingdom in the north being very specifically related rings very true to me. It has the gravity to help justify the kinslaying for the stark in WF.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Concerning Asha I agree with BC that it was the "wood dancers" When I read that scene I thought the Mountain Clans were imitating them by wearing 'srubs' and leaves ect.

I like all of the religous connections and after reading BC post I wondered if the north was the 'stranger' because they are not part of the Andal's seven, and with winter and them being 'hard' people that could represent death and the fact that the stranger is not really human, it could also connect to the 'others', the 'old races'.

@kennit; that is what I thought for the longest time but now I don't know what to think.

@mrazny; thanks for bringing up the 'kinslaying' aspect of the Stark in WF and the NK, I don't know why I never thought of it and it is something that needs to be reconciled.

@FanTansy; thanks for checking on all of that 'light' stuff I was curious as well, and now with Cersei being the light of the west I think I am even more curious.

[mor2]

Welcome to the 5^th incarnation of the Heresy thread, so-called because it challenges the orthodoxy that a massive invasion of Westeros by the Others is imminent and will only be stopped the intervention of Jon, and/or Dany and the her Amazing Dragons, either of whom may turn out to be Azor Ahai.

While the discussions on this thread are sometimes accused of being imaginative (which we heretics take as a compliment) and more specifically that they do not accord with the story GRRM is writing, this we deny – not because we’ve seen the script or persuaded GRRM to otherwise spill the beans, but because there are real and undeniable problems with the early history of Westeros; inconsistencies and contradictions in the timelines and stories which we are trying to resolve using both the clues offered or sometimes hidden in the text and the real historical and mythological sources known to be drawn upon by GRRM in writing the books.

There is nothing heretical about the idea that GRRM will not use the usual fantasy crap of one super hero to save the day. I dont think anyone ever accused anyone of being imaginative, if anything we all love a good crackpot theory, asking question and dwelling into smallest details and with the thread fifth iteration it seems that more answers has less undeniable problems.

[Black Crow]

We like to think we may be starting to get somewhere...

[TheMtThatRides...Your Mom]

Joruman's horn - if it's Sam's horn, has some detail links to the dragonbinder horn Euron found. It wakes Giant's? Giants were used for the construction of the Wall? Joruman, Mormonts, Giants breaking chains, *Slavery is specifically abhorred in Westeros while it's rampant everywhere else*... Nothing i've thought through fully reconciles all of this, but it's the second key to the puzzle, it really feels that way

So hasty not fully reconciled proposal. The horn is made for Joruman, allowing him to bind the Giant's and utilize them to depose the Night's King and end the long night. To help this become a more permanent resolution, he uses the Giant's to build the wall and puts them to sleep, specifically so that they cannot be used as slaves anymore than this purpose. Maybe some giant's mate with first men to keep their blood alive and settle on Bear island to become mormonts? Joruman is the last giant and agrees to help with all of this, but mates with Men to keep their line alive. The Wildlings respond to strength and power and naturally were led by the Giants at first?

So...you know the Mormont's are bears, right? The Umbers are the giants in silver chains.

ETA: I don't think the Mormonts are ever described as being "giants of men" or "having more than a drop of giant's blood" like the Umbers or Hodor is. I believe they've only been described as hairy men (and possibly only jorah here, because I don't think Jeor ever gets shirtless and/or naked around Jon or Sam during a POV).

[Armand Gargalen]

This is topic is fascinating. I have been following it from the beginning and posted a bit at the first threat. I am not completely convinced of every point made by the heretics, but I definitely agree with the main ideas.

But I also would like to consider the implication that the heretic ideas have from an angle only tangentially explored so far: the Fire side of ASOIAF.

If we assume that Winter, and not the Others, is the real menace, what is then the role of Azhor Ahai Reborn?

I have lots of ideas on my head and a cast around my left arm that severely impairs my typing, so I will only mention an odd parallelism I found when thinking about this.

Has anybody else noticed that apart from the COTF, there is another race, or group of people, who are currently dwindling despite being keepers of powerful magic? only, that instead of living in Westeros, they live in Essos, and instead of eating red weirwood paste, they drink a blue shade of the evening (although both help to increase magical awareness). I don´t know if there is a relationship, but it is food for thought.

[mrazny]

So...you know the Mormont's are bears, right? The Umbers are the giants in silver chains.

ETA: I don't think the Mormonts are ever described as being "giants of men" or "having more than a drop of giant's blood" like the Umbers or Hodor is. I believe they've only been described as hairy men (and possibly only jorah here, because I don't think Jeor ever gets shirtless and/or naked around Jon or Sam during a POV).

This is not the first time I've mixed umbers with mormonts... damn brain

[Aluminum Link]

Again its one of these things where there is no hard evidence as such and its therefore a matter of working things out. Here's Ygritte's story from SoS1:

Deeper he went, and deeper, and when he tried t' turn back the ways that seemed familiar ended in stone rather than sky. Soon his torces began t'fail, one by one, till finally there was naught but dark. Gendel's folk were never seen again, but on a still night you can hear their children's children's children sobbing under the hills, still looking for the way back up...

Jon then asks if this means the way under the Wall has been lost

Some have searched for it. Them that go too deep find Gendel's children, and Gendel's children are always hungry.

The first part is a classic Faerie story still found in Scotland and probably other Celtic cultures as well, although usually involving only a single individual - sometimes a piper who can still be heard playing as he tries to find a way out. The sinister twist here is the bit about those "that go too deep" and do find the children, because we know having now read ADwD that there are Children down there in the caves and that they're surrounded by bones.

I think it's more likely that the caves of the Children, filled as they are with unexplained bones, are the source of the Gendel myth/legend/story amongst the wildings rather than evidence that the Children = Gendel's children. Therefore, I think it's skating on thin ice to claim that this story is evidence that the Children were part of an invasion south of the wall.

Remember, in the North (but south of the wall) the story, according to Jon, has Gendel being killed rather than escaping back into the caves. I think it far more likely that Gendel was in fact killed and that the wildlings fabricated this myth to add flavour to the story while at the same time explaining the bones they've probably found deep in caves from time to time.

[Black Crow]

The big weakness of the Gendel story as a story has always been that if he and his people never made it out, how did the story start in the first place?

An obvious answer is an argument between fugitives in the woods somewhere near the Wall where Gendel announced he was going to try and get away through the caves but another leader refused and they then went their separate ways with the other guy and his people making it through and Gendel never being heard of again.

However that still comes back to the question of how the existence of the caves and a way through them was known in the first place and that knowledge can only have come from the Children and the reason why Gendel and his people were never seen again is that they had lost or been separated from their guides, because ultimately this still comes down to the fact that the Pact was broken and that although the North should have been a safe haven for those Children who survived the Andal invasion they were instead forced to flee beyond the Wall. Given then that we have a big battle won by the Watch and Stark of Winterfell at about this time, which may correspond with the battle in the Night that Ended and temptingly with the Night's King business as well, its a matter of bringing threads together.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

I think it's more likely that the caves of the Children, filled as they are with unexplained bones, are the source of the Gendel myth/legend/story amongst the wildings rather than evidence that the Children = Gendel's children. Therefore, I think it's skating on thin ice to claim that this story is evidence that the Children were part of an invasion south of the wall.

Remember, in the North (but south of the wall) the story, according to Jon, has Gendel being killed rather than escaping back into the caves. I think it far more likely that Gendel was in fact killed and that the wildlings fabricated this myth to add flavour to the story while at the same time explaining the bones they've probably found deep in caves from time to time.

I think we all agree that the way history is told depends on who is telling it. The story Jon knows says Gendel was killed. Ygritte's story says he wandered into underground caves with his people and was never seen again (implicitly died of starvation) because he couldn't find a way out. In both scenarios, he ceases to play a role in the living world for certain, and for less certain, most of his company is assumed to share his fate. I think the overlapping evidence points to Gendel himself dying for sure no matter what else. I forgot what the actual text said regarding Gendel's children, but after reading it again, I don't think they're real COTF anymore.

Also, the construction of the story that Ygritte tells runs thusly:

1. reference a historical event/person that is very important to the culture, lore, hero mythos of the storyteller, Ygritte----Gendel

2. talk about fantastical adventures that this person had which may have a grain of truth, but is most likely obscured by time and the construction of mythology----Gendel trying to dig under the wall, getting lost, dying but his people living on to eat things that wander in to them

3. end by relating the story of the mythical hero to a phenomenon of the present day

This is the structure that a lot of folklore and mythology takes. Start with a heroic figure who certainly existed in some form, (Johnny Appleseed, King Arthur), but so long ago that it's almost impossible to say anything specifically historic about them. For example, I think a lot of historians agree that there was a miliary commader who united Britain under his command around the time Arthur should have lived, and that the battle of Mount Badon was an actual event, but beyond that little is known. The figure is an essential part of the cultural legacy and history of a people (as Arthur is to Britain) and over time legends develop about them, mostly fantastical and stretches of the truth---pearls of fantasy forming around grains of truth. Some of the stories use this figure and their exploits to explain some mysterious phenomenon that occurs in the current time.

The Wildlings seem to have some understanding that the children still exist, and some individuals may have stumbled near their hollow hills, heard or seen things, and this story is part of the explanation that they've come up with over the generations. I just don't think that the Gendel story has any inherent value in itself, beyond foreshadowing meeting the actual Children in ADWD. I think that was the whole point of the story, foreshadowing. It just seems way too complicated to wrap Gendel up with the NK story, that's so much explaining to do. Another reason I think it's main purpose is foreshadowing and little else, is because the children in this story are the descendants of Gendel, his children's children's children, still stuck in the cave, hungry and sorrowfully wondering if they'll ever be able to climb out again. Gendel was supposed to be a Wildling right? There's no hint that his descendants could be COTF, but their fate mirrors that of the COTF, and the use of the word children further forshadows the coming of the actual Children in a later book.

[FanTasy]

The Wildlings seem to have some understanding that the children still exist, and some individuals may have stumbled near their hollow hills, heard or seen things, and this story is part of the explanation that they've come up with over the generations. I just don't think that the Gendel story has any inherent value in itself, beyong foreshadowing meeting the actual Children in ADWD. I think that was the whole point of the story, foreshadowing. It just seems way too complicated to wrap Gendel up with the NK story, that's so much explaining to do.

You're right. I think it is fascinating how much knowledge is 'alive' among the wildlings. From Osha Bran practically learns more than from Maester Luwin. Jon learns a lot about the history of the Night's Watch and the Wall from Ygritte.

I wondered why GRRM is using this pattern. I think it fits in that the 'official' story should be met with some doubts - as we are doing here on these threads.

It also shows that the Night's Watch and the rest of the good folks of Westeros clearly hadn't incentives to remember what the wildlings did.

Or it is just that 'oral history' is in its essence more reliable than written sources. That figures, once written down knowledge tended to be kept in a dark library, accessible to few - with the risk of being forgotten.

About Gendel. I agree it is foreshadowing and pressing on the meaning of the bones in the caves of the children. Although I can see that someone (Jon, or parties at the Wall using the underground roads to flee the Wall) might stumble over some pretty scary stuff.

What I'm not getting clearly is how the wildling oral history sees the Children of the Forest.

They seem to be named in a pretty neutral way. Not as enemies or horror creatures. But ... neither as the good guys and helpers of men.

What I find a bit weird is that with all the stories told by Ygritte there is none that explicitely regards the Children of the Forest (if I recall correctly). The children that are named are Gendels children.

Jon isn't asking specifically though. His interest is clearly more in the giants - and in Ygritte.

Now that I'm thinking about it Mance Rayder doesn't name them either? Gotta look this up, though.

That could be a little weird too. He has invested years and years in rallying up all people to either save them or use them for another goal he may have and has not revealed yet. Surely he must know about the Children? He had a wildling mother and probably was raised with the same oral history as Osha and Ygritte.

Bran is the one who gets that the children are important. He specifically says this in AGOT and asks information about them in the scene with Maester Luwin before the raven arrives that announces Ned's death.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Beyond that, to return to Mrazny's point above, I don't believe that the Seven aspects of the Andal faith and the Seven Kingdoms are co-incidental and that the Andals' original belief in the Lord of Light was adapted thus for political reasons (hence Davos regarding Mel as a heretic, just as in our world Catholics and Protestants although both professing their belief in Christ regard each other as heretics). The cunning point of this being that there are only six Andal kingdoms, not seven which hints once again at some kind of deal with Stark of Winterfell - yes we will have peace, but you must expel the Others and allow the Faith to be practiced north of the Neck

I'm afraid this idea puts you in a major timeline conflict. On Littlefinger's land in the Fingers there is a rock with the seven-pointed star carved into in, reputedly by some of the first Andals that landed in Westeros. If true, that means the "seven" aspect of that religion was firmly established before the Andals came to Westeros. There is no time for it to have adapted into "sevenness" after landing in Westeros.

The only thing that the Faith and R'hllorism have in common is that they are both religions. If you applied the same amount of folding, bending, spindling and mutilating used in the attempts to show they have the same roots to any two other religions, you could show those two were related, also.

As for the Fiery Heart symbol adapting into the Seven-Pointed Star, there is frankly no evidence that I remember that the Fiery Heart symbol is anything other than a recent invention by Mel and Stannis. We don't see it used anywhere in Volantis, do we?

[Ibbison from Ibben]

... Yet as we’ve seen the Last Hero had to hunt for years before finding the Children and thanks to GRRM’s literary interruption we still don’t know what happened when he did and how the Long Night was ended.

Remember that Old Nan is a storyteller; her main motivation is to entertain. She undoubtedly engages in a bit of "poetic license" to enhance her story. Did the Last Hero actually search "for years"? Did he actually have exactly twelve companions? Did his companions all die, then his horse, then his dog, and then did his sword break? It sounds like a storyteller's embellishment, meant to get across the point that he suffered while searching for the CotF. Undoubtedly his wife left him, too, and he was informed that the Westerosi IRS was going to audit him as well.

The orthodox view is that they must have saved him from a fate worse than death and somehow given him the means to defeat the Others, but if we accept the proposition that as described by Old Nan (and later by Tormond) that the real killer is Winter, then slaying an infeasible number of White Walkers and Wights might be immensely satisfying its hardly going to turn back Winter.

But we are not sure if the WW come in the winter, or if they actually bring the winter. Sam isn't sure; neither are his sources, apparently. If the WW bring the winter, then killing them would indeed turn back winter. And WW aren't all that hard to kill, once you figure out how to do it. The clear implication is that the CotF gave the Last Hero the knowledge that dragonglass kills the WW and fire destroys the wights.

[mrazny]

But we are not sure if the WW come in the winter, or if they actually bring the winter. Sam isn't sure; neither are his sources, apparently. If the WW bring the winter, then killing them would indeed turn back winter. And WW aren't all that hard to kill, once you figure out how to do it. The clear implication is that the CotF gave the Last Hero the knowledge that dragonglass kills the WW and fire destroys the wights.

Of course, this would only work with numbers on his side if in fact the white walkers were truly numerous.

We have very little true exposure to non-Mel Rh'lor. Either because it's insignificant, there just wasn't space to do it without reaching, or because it would tie up many loose ends. Especially when we're talking about carving into stone, we're not sure how good the andals were with curves.

By all means i'm not sitting here proclaiming the great strength of the seven pointed star to a fiery heart, with this book from Asshai or Volantis with the Fiery Heart next to a seven pointed star or anything like that. And even with the seven being *firm* in the fingers, the other aspect isn't neccesarily that the seven were formed on this continent, but that the Andals were the true creators of the seven kingdoms, not just conquerors of seven conveniently established kingdoms. Perhaps they reconciled a lack of need to conquer the North because of what they saw as an affinity with the Stranger and their own mystery of the Stranger with their First Men brothers in the North.

I'm also of a mind that although we can draw upon some of the histories of Europe to reflect upon the story, the story itself has to give us some clues that those histories apply. That said, I'm still sorting through some text to see if there are stronger or more numerous clues to draw upon, but the Rh'lor - Seven having the same base religion has some interplay with our own religious history. Though not a direct A to B relation, we have the example in Jesus of being pivotal, but literally one religion is formed by making him of greater import than the religion he grew up in.

By all means I don't mean to take the values of Christianity versus Judaism into some more serious directions, just talking in broad strokes from some commonly held points of views and positions. I don't think it's a stretch to say that the Old Testament God is different from the New Testament God. That said, this didn't really translate into a kinder gentler religion once Christians came into power. Even though the Faith of the Seven seems on the surface to be a less violent tradition in 300 AL than the Rh'lor counterpart, that didn't translate 100% into a kind benevolent Andal migration to convert the Heathens. It turned into genocide and overthrow by force. That and the extra descriptors from Brienne that the Stars were *carved* into the Andal invaders chests, not just painted on, make for a disturbing fundamentalist view, and at least bridges a little bit towards the more vicious Rh'lor mindset.

Of course to have a true parallel to say Jesus-Jews-early Christians, it subverts who takes to Jesus if the Seven are the Christians, but also reflects on the Roman (targaryen) persecution of the Christians (Andals). Of course it isn't one to one on all events europe (because it also shouldn't), since the Andal invasion of Westeros isn't really the Roman invasion of Britain in a perfect targaryens equal romans sense, but that wouldn't be the way GRRM would create the reflection to our own history IMO.

On a similar note of the differing aspects of the same base religious moments... Is that a way to reconcile the First Men of the North and the Wildlings? On a just barely different religious tradition of how to honor the Old Gods?

[FanTasy]

Undoubtedly his wife left him, too, and he was informed that the Westerosi IRS was going to audit him as well.

(snip)

But we are not sure if the WW come in the winter, or if they actually bring the winter. Sam isn't sure; neither are his sources, apparently. If the WW bring the winter, then killing them would indeed turn back winter. And WW aren't all that hard to kill, once you figure out how to do it. The clear implication is that the CotF gave the Last Hero the knowledge that dragonglass kills the WW and fire destroys the wights.

Audit by the Westerosi IRS ... sounds like the Others, drinking his red hot blood <_< No offense to all the boarders who work at the IRS ...

If the WW bring the winter, then killing them would indeed turn back winter. Hmm ... what if the white walkers are the harbingers of moderate winter, and if you bite and kill them, you clear the way for what they were holding back ... the horrid killing-all-life for centuries winter :stillsick:

ETA Lol, I forget which movie. People are with ultimate effort killing a vile creature, only to be confronted with the horror of an even viler and undefeatable creature, which was kept at largebay by their first kill. I never forgot the tongue-in-cheek remark in that movie: "Well, things have not improved."