Heresy 5

[Eyron]

Any ideas on a juicy way they could or have used it? And do you think it's in anyway connected to warging, from a magical perspective? It could be how they taught the First Men maybe, you know something like that?

I'm not Ibbison but here are my thoughts on that anyway :)

The juicy way the Children could have used it is of course the wood dancers ability to blend in among the trees. Much like the Others. Maybe that is some kind of camouflage glamor. I think Leaf could have used some kind of glamor to be able to walk among people.

Some believe animals communicate with eachother via images, not only by sounds, especially animals that live in packs(particularily wolves). So skinchanging could be some extension on that. The Children are said to have communicated with all living things in nature so I think that is plausible. When someone is skinchanging the "spirit" travels from one body to another completely so don't think that works much like glamor.

Glamor seems to be manipulating of mind, creating illusion. The source is the "sender", the one using the glamor. Perhaps by communicating an image to the "reciever" end (the person looking at the glamor), so it could be distantly connected to skinchanging perhaps. But to me it seems the glamor works in a more general fashion, without aiming at any particular receiver, just everyone in the proximity, which makes it different than mind-traveling like skinchanging. Glamor also uses manipulation which is very different from pure communication and skinchanging.

So all in all I think glamor could be remotely related to how the Children communicate with animals (mind-to-mind communication), and skinchanging is a higher level of that. To manipulate someone's mind I think sorcery is needed, so that sets it apart too. That is a reason I am suspicious about the wood dancers, did they use sorcery to blend into the trees or were they just masters at camouflage? And Leaf, she must have needed a glamor I think.

I think it is likely that the Starks, Reeds and perhaps Blackwoods, are actually descendants from the Children, very distantly. When Bran sees Leaf in the mouth of the cave he thinks it is Arya, and he himself is called a squirrel by his father. Arya is practicing her swordsmanship in the trees at Harrenhal (as hotweaselsoup pointed out in an earlier thread) which makes us think of the wood dancers. Arya looks very much like Lyanna it is said so both would resemble Leaf probably.

Jojen and the crannogmen in general seem to have much in common with the Children, besides Jojens greendreams obviously. They are short, have moss green eyes and at least Howland Reed have some kind of connection to the greenmen at the Isle of faces.

If they are descendants of the Children (from intermarrying in the past) it is only natural that they are more likely to have the skinchanging abilities, or greendreams like Jojen.

Bloodraven had a moonstone in the Mystery knight, so that could be connected to the glamor. Shiera had sapphires and emeralds in her necklace, and I don't think we have heard of any rumors about her using glamors. If she did maybe those stones can be used for that too. Maybe their colours could represent earth and water? I don't know, just guessing here ;)

[Elaena Targaryen]

Eira I love absolutely every thing about your post!!! That is exactly what I was hoping for, I just needed some one with a great imagination to color it all in. Thank you, I love your ideas!!!

[Eyron]

:blushing: Oh thanks! :)

[Black Crow]

The source is the "sender", the one using the glamor. Perhaps by communicating an image to the "reciever" end (the person looking at the glamor), so it could be distantly connected to skinchanging perhaps. But to me it seems the glamor works in a more general fashion, without aiming at any particular receiver, just everyone in the proximity, which makes it different than mind-traveling like skinchanging. Glamor also uses manipulation which is very different from pure communication and skinchanging.

That's certainly how glamours work in Celtic mythology - in fact they originate there.

[Eyron]

Ah, ok that is probably where the idea comes from then :) As always I am lost when it comes to the Celtic mythology. It's just the way I interpreted the phenomenon in the books.

[Black Crow]

Pat on the back then for interpreting it correctly :cool4: and once again consistent with what we've been discussing about the influences on GRRM's work and using his sources to try and fill the gaps.

[Eyron]

Is there anything that resembles the white walkers in celtic myth? Or the revenants, like the draugar? It would be interesting if there are some more ties to the white walkers there.

[Lummel]

there's a cauldron of rebirth in the mabinogion, dead warriors dropped into it will come out as kind of like zombies, able to fight but not much else. It's in the Bran story. The Irish and the welsh are fighting at a wedding feast, but the Welsh have a hard time of it because the Irish keep bringing their dead men back into the fight. The welsh get one of their heroes to hide amongst the Irish dead so he gets dropped into the cauldron, then he stretches out until the cauldron breaks. That's the only thing that comes to mind as vaguely similar (it's got undead warriors in it, what more do you want?)

This is the same story that ends with Bran having his head buried at the tower of London to keep guard over the land and where he is kept informed by two friendly ravens.

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

Is there anything that resembles the white walkers in celtic myth? Or the revenants, like the draugar? It would be interesting if there are some more ties to the white walkers there.

Maybe there is a connection between white walkers and the barrows of the first men. The Celtic New Year doesn't start with spring, it starts with seed-fall, Samhain, around Oct. 31. At this time, the veil between this world and the Otherworld is supposed to be thin enough that the dead could return, and some special or gifted living individuals pass into the Otherworld by going through burial mounds, like barrows. Or perhaps, by entering into hollow hills of the faerie folk etc. This sounds similar to Bran walking into the cavern of the Children.

Some interesting things I read from a site:

To the Celts, time was circular rather than linear. This is reflected in their commencing each day, and each festival, at dusk rather than dawn, a custom comparable with that of the Jewish Sabbath. It is also reflected in their year beginning with the festival of Samhain on 31 October, when nature appears to be dying down. Tellingly, the first month of the Celtic year is Samonios, ‘Seed Fall’: in other words, from death and darkness springs life and light.

Caesar confirms this and offers an explanation (Conquest of Gaul, VI.18):

The Gauls claim all to be descended from Father Dis [a god of death, darkness and the underworld], declaring that this is the tradition preserved by the Druids. For this reason they measure periods of time not by days but by nights; and in celebrating birthdays, the first of the month, and new year’s day, they go on the principle that the day begins at night.

Of course, more parallels to the Children and their way of viewing the world, not fearing but embracing darkness etc. However, some new ideas spring from this as well. We hear of the "Night that ended," and often associate it with the Long Night. In either case, we're conditioned to think it's this terrible thing that must be overcome and defeated by the forces of light. There's also the very important concept of time being circular thrown in there. I think there's some in-story shout out to the Wheel of Time books, right? Well, here we see that the Celts considered Night the beginning, and the death of the seasons as the New Year. What if the Night that ended was in itself supposed to be a celebratory occasion, and there's really nothing particularly evil or destructive about it. Perhaps the truly destructive and disruptive event is the misrepresentation of Night, darkness and death, integral parts to the circle of timeand the attempt by people like Mel to eradicate it.

Perhaps the Others, by being forces of death, are actually helping to preserve life.

[Black Crow]

While we always need to remember this is GRRM's story I also think its fair to view what's going on here in real historical terms with the Children representing the pre-Celtic inhabitants of the island of Britain and the First Men the Celts, integrating with them to combine elements of both religions and cultures - the Faerie stuff for the Children and the crop cycle, putting the King into the ground etc. for the Celts. Then come the Andals or Anglo-Saxons...

As for Samhain, its now what we call Halloween - the night when the dead walk

ETA while the description of the White Walkers at first sight conforms to Norse rather than Celtic legend there was a fair bit of fusion between the two in the Highlands of the far north and west of Scotland

[RevengeOfTheStarks]

ETA while the description of the White Walkers at first sight conforms to Norse rather than Celtic legend there was a fair bit of fusion between the two in the Highlands of the far north and west of Scotland

Good point. Yeah, this is definitely GRRM's story and bound to be unique. It is still really interesting to look at possible RL influences or parallels, especially when trying to divine the motivations of things like WW, about which we know next to nothing.

[mrazny]

As for Samhain, its now what we call Halloween - the night when the dead walk

ETA while the description of the White Walkers at first sight conforms to Norse rather than Celtic legend there was a fair bit of fusion between the two in the Highlands of the far north and west of Scotland

If this story is playing with Samhain, it would last more than a night wouldn't it? If say this is a 13 year winter coming, and winter *should* be a 3 month season, one night in fall would be now potentially 49 days. Anyways, i don't think this is what GRRM is drawing upon or having a Samhain like event that allows the WW to appear, but i guess its on the table. We only have two confirmed by POV sightings and others talking about them which very well could've been the mind playing tricks on them or blatant lying to justify running away from a fight.

On the Norse-Celtic thing, I agree. If Philology is a combination of literary, history and liguistics, GRRM has very specifically not drawn upon all three from any one RL source. Linguistics-wise, everything does sound very Norse. The shape of Westeros *looks* more British, and the First Men before Andals has a very Celtic-Roman vibe. But the legends don't sound very Celtic. Westeros does not have a history with Gods making appearances (and perhaps thats the Andals doing). None of the "Heroes" sound like Cu Chulain or seem to reflect on any of the Ulster stuff in Ireland at the very least. Irish Celtic probably doesn't have much (and is the only thing i have a rudamentary exposure to). The Bran-Raven stuff DOES have some good interplay.

The only lesson I think could apply to Westeros from Celtic-Christian Irish mythology is this. The early christians changed the history just ever so slightly. They took actual legends and just barely tweaked them to make them not just more Christian, but actually Christian. I'm struggling to name names right now, but there are actual recognized Saints that strong scholarly evidence points to them living well before Christianity came to Ireland.

Not that we need more layers to consider, but the First Men ditched their Gods for the Old Gods. What were those original gods? Drowned God, Rh'lor, other?

Why would Andals say they invaded in 6000 instead of 4000? Just to give themselves more history? Or to make certain loved folk heroes from 6000-4000 be remembered as Andals or of the Seven instead of First Men and the Old Gods. In Ireland this wasn't seen as a subversive or horrible motive blurring of the history, but as a bridge to connect the old and the new.

[Black Crow]

Why would Andals say they invaded in 6000 instead of 4000? Just to give themselves more history? Or to make certain loved folk heroes from 6000-4000 be remembered as Andals or of the Seven instead of First Men and the Old Gods. In Ireland this wasn't seen as a subversive or horrible motive blurring of the history, but as a bridge to connect the old and the new.

We've already discussed the possibility of their establishing themselves in the Vale a long time before breaking out into Westeros proper, but I think its also important to bear in mind that migrations and military invasions are not the same thing. William, like Caesar came saw and conquered more or less. The Anglo Saxons were much more gradual with relatively small scale settlement taking place a long time before the overwhelming numbers takeover kicked in. We shouldn't therefore necessarily expect Azor Ahai the Andal (sorry) to run his ships on to the beach, get the lads unloaded and announce that Westeros was under new management as of a particular start date.

[mrazny]

We've already discussed the possibility of their establishing themselves in the Vale a long time before breaking out into Westeros proper, but I think its also important to bear in mind that migrations and military invasions are not the same thing. William, like Caesar came saw and conquered more or less. The Anglo Saxons were much more gradual with relatively small scale settlement taking place a long time before the overwhelming numbers takeover kicked in. We shouldn't therefore necessarily expect Azor Ahai the Andal (sorry) to run his ships on to the beach, get the lads unloaded and announce that Westeros was under new management as of a particular start date.

I'm not neccesarily hoping for anything like that or needing this bit to reflect on the AA blahblah, but for those that would wonder the why of the 6,000-4,000 disparity, the why would things get murky, and the why GRRM would bother... There's a core within this thread that wouldn't need to use this basis to reflect on Westeros and find issue with the dating, but as far as issue with dating, we do have specific Real Life examples, and they just happen to be religious in nature.

[FanTasy]

We've already discussed the possibility of their establishing themselves in the Vale a long time before breaking out into Westeros proper, but I think its also important to bear in mind that migrations and military invasions are not the same thing. William, like Caesar came saw and conquered more or less. The Anglo Saxons were much more gradual with relatively small scale settlement taking place a long time before the overwhelming numbers takeover kicked in. We shouldn't therefore necessarily expect Azor Ahai the Andal (sorry) to run his ships on to the beach, get the lads unloaded and announce that Westeros was under new management as of a particular start date.

Quite. There was traffic and exchange of ideas, probably.

Azor Ahai could well be from a family living for a very long time in Westeros, First Men descendant. He is described in eastern legends as a hero, that doesn't mean he was born and raised to be a hero in Essos.

[FanTasy]

The Children of the Forest.

They are never described as nasty, something that on a thread like this of course will be met with a fair amount of suspicion :cool4:

There are some people who think they serve Bran Jojenpaste, but there is no conclusive evidence for this.

And there are some suspicions considering blood offerings in front of weirwoods, possibly to keep the weirnet active.

Let's assume the Children are what they seem and they want to help Bran. They enable him to meet Bloodraven, to further educate him in developing his rare talent as a green-seeer.

What's in it for them?

[hotweaselsoup]

Another possible connection between RL folklore and ASoIaF, this time in relation to Shaggydog:

Black Shuck or Old Shuck is the name given to a ghostly black dog which is said to roam the Norfolk, Essex and Suffolk coastline. Black Shuck is sometimes referred to as the Doom Dog.

For centuries, inhabitants of England have told tales of a large black dog with malevolent flaming eyes (or in some variants of the legend a single eye) that are red or alternatively green. They are described as being 'like saucers'. According to reports, the beast varies in size and stature from that of simply a large dog to being the size of a horse.

There are legends of Black Shuck roaming the Anglian countryside since before Vikings. His name may derive from the Old English word scucca meaning "demon", or possibly from the local dialect word shucky meaning "shaggy" or "hairy". The legend may have been part of the inspiration for the Sherlock Holmes novel The Hound of the Baskervilles.

It is said that his appearance bodes ill to the beholder, although not always. More often than not, stories tell of Black Shuck terrifying his victims, but leaving them alone to continue living normal lives; in some cases it has supposedly happened before close relatives to the observer die or become ill. In other tales he's regarded to be relatively benign and said to accompany women on their way home in the role of protector rather than a portent of ill omen.^[3]

Sometimes Black Shuck has appeared headless, and at other times he appears to float on a carpet of mist. According to folklore, the spectre often haunts graveyards, sideroads, crossroads and dark forests. Black Shuck is also said to haunt the coast road between West Runton and Overstrand.

Emphasis mine. I was following up on "hellhounds", when I came across the above in Wikipedia. Here's the link to the main article on Black Shuck: http://en.wikipedia....iki/Black_Shuck

[Fire Eater]

The Children of the Forest.

They are never described as nasty, something that on a thread like this of course will be met with a fair amount of suspicion :cool4:

There are some people who think they serve Bran Jojenpaste, but there is no conclusive evidence for this.

And there are some suspicions considering blood offerings in front of weirwoods, possibly to keep the weirnet active.

Let's assume the Children are what they seem and they want to help Bran. They enable him to meet Bloodraven, to further educate him in developing his rare talent as a green-seeer.

What's in it for them?

They get a new greenseer, Bloodraven is dying and Bran is the first greenseer born in century, the CotF need a greenseer. I think executions were performed in front of a weirwoods so the blood would nurish the trees.

[FanTasy]

Considering connections to Norse and other mythology ... ravens.

In Norse mythology ravens are seen as birds that are close to men. Odin had two ravens, named Huginn and Muginn, supposedly meaning thought/knowledge and memory. They brought information to Odin and delivered his messages. They are described as sitting on Odin's shoulders.

The Celts seemed to believe that raven told prophecies, as did the old Greek.

About Mormonts raven. I remember Mormont said somewhere this particular raven was old. ravens in real life can become quite old, more than forty years.

When Mormont died his raven seemed smoothly pass into the succession, from one Lord Commander to the other.

My guess is that Mormonts raven is not his raven but that this raven comes with the job. Maybe it was even Brynden Rivers' raven when he was Lord Commander. I don't know if this fits, timelinewise.

It is widely believed that Mormonts raven brings messages from Bran / Bloodraven, and is used to watch what happens at the Wall.

Is there another explanation why this particular raven seems to know a lot, is influencing events?

Jeor Mormont was one of the few people in the North who remembered the dangers of winter and the Others.

Why?

Because Aemon told him? Or was it 'knowledge and memory', passed from one Lord Commander to his successor, through his raven?

I just remembered that Jon, when he had just became Lord Commander, thinks about the raven and says something that the bird seemed to be close to the Old Bear but that this didn't stop him from eating his face.

Maybe this was a magical way in the olden days of getting 'knowledge and memory' from one Lord Commander to another?

ETA just remembered that the raven sometimes pulled a hair out - ate it or brought it away? Like bones hair remembers?

[FanTasy]

They get a new greenseer, Bloodraven is dying and Bran is the first greenseer born in century, the CotF need a greenseer. I think executions were performed in front of a weirwoods so the blood would nurish the trees.

Yes, but why do they want- need - a greenseeer? What is their goal in seeing? What do they want to do with the information they get?

ETA What I mean is: what is the mission of the Children of the Forest. As in 'To boldly go where ... etc'