Heresy 5

[FanTasy]

Nice posts everybody!

That particular scene with Ghost is probably important. I took it that Melisandre used a kind of spell to get Ghost to trust her. She 'sang' his name and then he came to her. Ghost showed behavior that could be affection as well as submission towards her. Afterwards Jon thinks he looks at him as if he doesn't know him.

Have to say I found this a bit disturbing. I think it is likely that Melisandre took more control over Jon and she may be using Ghost for it.

What I'm not sure of is if this is for the (Jon's) good or a sign for something evil.

By now Melisandre seems to know that Jon is important for her to reach her goals at the Wall, whatever these may be.

She is at the Wall for a specific purpose, otherwise she would be with Stannis, helping him like she did when he defeated Mance Rayder's host.

Jon may be Melisandres key to finding out the true purpose of the Wall. And in how to confront what she considers the darkness that poses a threat to R'hlor. :frown5:

[Black Crow]

Jon at one point remembers Old Nan telling him stories about ice dragons, and come on. It's Old Nan.

Given that it was written before AGoT, GRRM presumably had in mind Old Nan telling him the story of Adara and the Ice Dragon :)

If so, that would reinforce the relevance of the Ice Dragon story and the characteristics of Ice creatures to the present one.

[Black Crow]

Although this brings up another point: the AA prophecy speaks of someone "wak[ing] dragons from stone". But it never says what kind of dragons will be woken from stone. The Others are sometimes said to have been "sleeping beneath the ice". Maybe the ice dragons have been sleeping alongside them? Just a thought. I think it would be hilarious if Ms. "Cold is evil! Fire is good!" Mel turns out to be obsessed with a prophecy that actually talks about the "waking" of dragons which bring ice and cold to the world.

There is of course first the curious co-incidence of the Comet, Mel coming looking for Azor Ahai and Dany hatching her Amazing Dragons all happening at the same time, which suggests they may be connected, and all of that happening in blissful ignorance of the coming Winter and its attendant nasties which its confidently assumed "AA come again" (and Dany if the two aren't one and the same) and the Amazing Dragons will defeat. But what if its the other way round and that just as the Ice Dragon battled its way through summer to save Adara, Ice is coming to save Westeros from Fire :devil:

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Nice posts everybody!

That particular scene with Ghost is probably important. I took it that Melisandre used a kind of spell to get Ghost to trust her. She 'sang' his name and then he came to her. Ghost showed behavior that could be affection as well as submission towards her. Afterwards Jon thinks he looks at him as if he doesn't know him.

Have to say I found this a bit disturbing. I think it is likely that Melisandre took more control over Jon and she may be using Ghost for it.

What I'm not sure of is if this is for the (Jon's) good or a sign for something evil.

By now Melisandre seems to know that Jon is important for her to reach her goals at the Wall, whatever these may be.

She is at the Wall for a specific purpose, otherwise she would be with Stannis, helping him like she did when he defeated Mance Rayder's host.

Jon may be Melisandres key to finding out the true purpose of the Wall. And in how to confront what she considers the darkness that poses a threat to R'hlor. :frown5:

Mel isn't as all-powerful as she wants people to think she is, and imo one of the reasons she didn't follow Stannis is her need to be near a constantly-burning fire. Note in her POV that she gives orders that the fire must never be allowed to go out. She also wants to stay near Jon; she sees him as an additional source of power and shadowbabies, and of course she's trying to manipulate him to futher her own agenda. However I really dislike her and her burning ways -- not only people, but art (the statues of the 7 at Dragonstone) and weirwoods

it's my theory that she "caused" the fall of Storm's End by burning the godswood and cutting it off from the weirwood web's magic

and I really hope she has little or nothing to do with Jon's resurrection, recovery, return, whatever.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

For me there are two groups of questions about the existential threat to human life. Firstly what does Bran see in the heart of Winter (or what is the heart of winter? Or is the heart of Winter anything more than the bare minimum implied by those words ie just plain old winter as we know it from life but so prolonged that it becomes a threat to all life).

I agree that this is the most important question, but it also the mystery that GRRM has given us the least amount of info on (deliberately, of course).

Secondly Old Nan says in her story that it was the first time that the white walkers appeared. The first time. My question is therefore are the white walkers natural (do they eat, drink, sleep, reproduce etc like goats or giants or any other living thing) and have they always been there, a social creature capable of war against humans, or are they magical in original created by somebody for an explicit purpose? I think the description of the melting of a White walker implies that they are magical in which case killing them will not resolve the threat because they are not the threat they are just the tool of the something that created them in the first place.

I see this as two variables yielding four possible combinations: Natural vs magical/ tools vs agents. (So the WW could be natural tools, natural agents, magical tools, or magical agents.) In the legends we don't hear of any entities that might be creating/directing the WW. This is not conclusive, of course, but given how human they appear (language, emotions) I currently lean toward the idea they are mutated FM, saturated with magic, with their own agenda that, if they can successfully implement it, would end in a result favorable to them. The basic theme would be that of men creating problems for other men, instead of men being afflicted by supernatural entities.

The white walkers bringing the winter and killing all the white walkers ending the winter is a certain type of story. It means that in the last couple of book a big effort is arming sufficient soldiers with dragonglass weapons and killing all the white walkers. End of story.

Not really. Fighting the WW will no doubt be important, but with all the prophecies floating around I see a higher level effort to rectify the conditions that allowed the Long Winter to happen in the first place- the split between Ice and Fire that allowed both the Long Winter and Valyria to originate. The heart of the story will be how the leaders can look beyond local matters and see the big picture.

Alternatively the Winter brings the white walkers and the problem is how to end the winter. That to my mind is more interesting if only because it is a much more mysterious notion at this point. My assumption is that is the direction GRRM is going to go, but it has to be said that I only think that because I think GRRM likes to mess with his readers and lead us up the garden path and surprise us.

I see the interesting story as being something even bigger- how to right a magical imbalance that created the screwy seasons, and the possibility for Long Winters, in the first place.

[Val the Wildling Princess]

There is of course first the curious co-incidence of the Comet, Mel coming looking for Azor Ahai and Dany hatching her Amazing Dragons all happening at the same time, which suggests they may be connected, and all of that happening in blissful ignorance of the coming Winter and its attendant nasties which its confidently assumed "AA come again" (and Dany if the two aren't one and the same) and the Amazing Dragons will defeat. But what if its the other way round and that just as the Ice Dragon battled its way through summer to save Adara, Ice is coming to save Westeros from Fire :devil:

You don't know how much of a happy woman this would make me ^_^ I have my little crackpot theory about this where team cold/ice/winter (with Jon on their side, of course) are not the bad guys at all but the ones who will save the realm against the fire threat.

[hotweaselsoup]

You don't know how much of a happy woman this would make me ^_^ I have my little crackpot theory about this where team cold/ice/winter (with Jon on their side, of course) are not the bad guys at all but the ones who will save the realm against the fire threat.

I agree, but I think the fire threat might come from Euron. I can't see Daenerys flying into Westeros and burning it down with her dragons - completely out of character for her, imho. But, I can see Dany the Rescuer returning to Westeros with Drogon to try to save the kingdom from Mad King Euron and his usurped dragons. Euron is the one who wants Total World Domination, not Dany. In fact, I think this may be the only reason that might compel Dany to leave Meereen, and her fight against slavery in Essos.

[mrazny]

In a lot of ways, we've been digging in the past of the North to help discover the end game of this story, and in a lot of ways slowly sweeping through some possible bits to work it out. Not that it feels like we're seemingly done with the past, but I'm starting to feel like we need to look forward in order to go back. Cycles and history repeating itself are entrenched deeply in this story, so where things are heading would reflect on what's happened in the past and reinforce everything we're talking about here at the same time.

Besides in tangent, we haven't touched much on Euron, the Ironmen, and how besides the men of the North, the reavers are the most "other" of all of Man, and supposedly the only Andals that dropped the Seven for the faith in the Drowned God while the North really remained First Men/Old Gods.

There's a very interesting essay on the Tower of the Hand site, http://www.towerofth...ions/index.html, going into Lady Dustin's problems with the Starks and the support that Rickon Stark acted differently than the Starks before him. Even though Lady Dustin is encouraged as a woman scorned to possibly believe more than there truly is to be wary of, I've had a similar creeping feeling about Rickon and his Southron stint.

But specifically it got me to thinking about the Tully's as a whole. They were never Kings. They have their position in the Riverlands thanks to assisting the invading Targaryens, the Harrens were near erradicated, and the Greyjoys became a de facto main house as far as the islands were concerned. Neither Greyjoy nor Tully are a true representation of one of the Seven Kingdoms.

This makes now 8 "great" houses, or really 6 Great Houses, 2 new big houses, and one conquering Overlord, but within that Seven of the Faith, one of the Old Gods and one of the Drowned God. How true Harren remained to the Drowned God isn't very well established, but he was the singled out destruction (mostly due to Hubris) that Aegon made example with and thus allowed the fraction to occur. The Tully's have played their part in the destruction of the Targaryen dynasty thanks to Ned, the Greyjoys just conveniently remained on the outside.

Euron desires to due what Harren didn't quite do, and the Damphair is seemingly against it, which doesn't lend credence to this being a Drowned God versus the World thing, but Euron, also flavored by Crow descriptions, certainly isn't done.

[mrazny]

Nothing's solidifying for me yet on the Greyjoy piece, but looking at it does bring this issue...

There aren't Seven Kingdoms.

The North

The Iron Islands

The Vale

The Riverlands

The Westerlands

The Reach

The Stormlands

Dorne

The Riverlands seem to be passed around the most, but there is wiki-talk of the Storm Kings defeating the last River King 300 years before Aegon's landing. Harren the Black's grandfather apparently took the riverlands from the Storm Kings, and eventually Harren made Harrenhal. But from a post-Andal invasion standpoint, especially if there is a King of the Iron Islands, and a King of the Riverlands, that's *8* Kings. (Well 7 Kings and one Prince of Dorne). The Dornish though I believe practice the Seven, and with a recognized King in the North, and no particular separation that the Northmen feel as far as the Seven Kingdoms are concerned, who started the use of the Seven Kingdoms? Luwin's history to Bran has the Seven Kingdoms formed before the Andals invade. Unless the Seven Kingdoms means that the Vale wasn't a pre-Andal Kingdom, that would still make the Vale the eighth now. But the Seven Kingdoms is commonly used in 300AL. For 200 years, the Targaryens did not rule over Dorne, so they did only rule over Seven Kingdoms, so that common use in 300AL was just from the vernacular from Aegon I's time?

If nothing else, this murks up the *why* they are called Seven Kingdoms, and with it seeming to be convenient that the faith of the Seven coincides with Seven Kingdoms, the convenience today does not lend to its use from in history very cleanly. Either some lost recording of history blurred its true origin, or it is a intended convenience at some point in Westeros history, with that convenience having potential roots from the Andal Invasion times, all the way through Aegon's conquest.

None of this is solid evidence of anything besides even more murk and mistrust of Westerosi history.

[Black Crow]

Given that it was written before AGoT, GRRM presumably had in mind Old Nan telling him the story of Adara and the Ice Dragon :)

If so, that would reinforce the relevance of the Ice Dragon story and the characteristics of Ice creatures to the present one.

A further thought on this one comes to me with reference to possible futures. I first started discussing the Ice Dragon story on here because of the similarities of language in relation to the dragon and the walkers, but given that John has been told stories of the Ice Dragon by Old Nan and that we can be reasonably sure that even if she didn't actually tell him the story about Adara, she'll have told him something similar; his perception of Ice may not be quite what we think. Remember it was the Ice Dragon which sacrified itself to save Adara by coming back in the heat of summer. Jon, knowing the story might be a lot more receptive than otherwise to the possibility that while ice is dangerous it isn't evil, but possibly what might save them all.

[Lummel]

I see the interesting story as being something even bigger- how to right a magical imbalance that created the screwy seasons, and the possibility for Long Winters, in the first place.

Yes, I can see that being the case. That would wrap things up nicely.

There aren't Seven Kingdoms.

The North

The Iron Islands

The Vale

The Riverlands

The Westerlands

The Reach

The Stormlands

Dorne

I don't want to sound as though Westerosi history is unmurky but my impression was that the Riverlands on their own never counted as one of the seven kingdoms. There are bits of Westeros that are outside the seven old kingdoms - the hill tribe areas west of the Vale of Arryn, Skagos (?) the Targaryen Crown Lands, I just assumed that the Riverlands area was one of those. Not really big or strong enough to be counted as Kingdom, maybe partly dominated or occupied by other Kingdoms.

Jon, knowing the story might be a lot more receptive than otherwise to the possibility that while ice is dangerous it isn't evil, but possibly what might save them all.

Well we get that idea that the cold preserves from Aemon and that's reinforced by the scene with Bowen Marsh looking at their food supplies - it can be beneficial. It's only Ygritte I think who describes The Wall as malevolent and then only the Wall and not ice. The killer is the White Cold - is that some kind of extreme low temperature or is it something evil?

[FanTasy]

From the Wiki; <The Seven Kingdoms are named for the seven individually ruled kingdoms that existed on Westeros, at the time when Aegon the Conqueror set out to invade Westeros. These were: The Kingdom of the North, Kingdom of the Vale, Kingdom of the Isles and Rivers, Kingdom of the Rock, Kingdom of the Reach, Kingdom of the Stormlands and Kingdom of Dorne. Initially Aegon conquered six of those kingdoms, consolidating them under the rule of House Targaryen and the Iron Throne, with Dorne, joining only two centuries later by marriage pact, after few hurdles on the way.>

[Elaena Targaryen]

From the Wiki; <The Seven Kingdoms are named for the seven individually ruled kingdoms that existed on Westeros, at the time when Aegon the Conqueror set out to invade Westeros. These were: The Kingdom of the North, Kingdom of the Vale, Kingdom of the Isles and Rivers, Kingdom of the Rock, Kingdom of the Reach, Kingdom of the Stormlands and Kingdom of Dorne. Initially Aegon conquered six of those kingdoms, consolidating them under the rule of House Targaryen and the Iron Throne, with Dorne, joining only two centuries later by marriage pact, after few hurdles on the way.>

I suppose it could be possible that when Luwin(?) said they forged the seven kingdoms, from a hundred, before the Andal invasion, that Dorne was always considered seperate, maybe. We have not(?) heard anything about Dorne during those periods and I don't recall anything about the children being there. The people of Dorne are aware of the COTF, but I don't remember any stories of them inhabiting Dorne, the first men either. Only the breaking of the Arm, but maybe they did that from Moat Cailin, right?

[Lummel]

...Here's my question: has anyone in-story actually said that Azor Ahai fought against the Others? Are there actual stories of him fighting the Others? Stories of him being specifically associated with the Long Night? Nobody who's read the "Azor Ahai will be reborn" prophecy ever associates AA with a battle against the Others---not the Red Priests in Volantis, not the Targaryens, not even Mel herself (initially). As so many have noted, Azor Ahai is a character apparently unknown in Westeros. Rather than say that AA is an analogue of the Last Hero, perhaps Azor Ahai actually had nothing to do with Westeros or the Long Night at all?

I've wondered if perhaps he was actually the mythical founder of the Valyrian empire...

Well I wondered if maybe Azor Ahai was one of or the Andal war hero who lead the Andals break out from the Vale and the conquest of the Southeron kingdoms. We had a bit of a discussion over if the battle for the Dawn might be an East vs West battle rather than a South vs North battle. We wondered if Lightbringer could have been his magic sword and maybe if Azor Ahai married into the Daynes. But the big downside to this idea is that he doesn't seem to be a westerosi folk hero.

Founder of the Valyrian Empire? Why not, your explanation sounds plausible. On the other hand maybe he's like Noah - a hero figure who crops up in different cultures with different names but with essentially the same story, but then we don't know much of the Azor Ahai story either.

As far as I know there is no mention of Azor Ahai fighting the white walkers or being involved with the long winter. There's been an assumption that the last hero is the same as Azor Ahai, I think that's fairly natural, because as you read though the series you do add these bits and pieces together, but that can lead to the wrong conclusions. I don't see enough similarity between the last hero and Azor Ahai stories to think that they are the same, but I think even amongst us heretics we're divided over it.

But are the pasts of these heroes significant? Do we think that the story is cyclical and those heroes paths will be repeated closely (in which case the differences might be significant) or are those future heroes going to emerge free of baggage and be very different from the last time round?

[Black Crow]

Well we get that idea that the cold preserves from Aemon and that's reinforced by the scene with Bowen Marsh looking at their food supplies - it can be beneficial. It's only Ygritte I think who describes The Wall as malevolent and then only the Wall and not ice. The killer is the White Cold - is that some kind of extreme low temperature or is it something evil?

Indeed I was going to mention Aegon. Of itself his remark was interesting at a time when it seemed obvious that the Others were the bad guys. Now, as this proposition is a lot less certain his remarks take on a lot more significance.

As to the cold; there's no question that it kills and by comparing what we know of the Ice Dragon and the White Walkers little doubt that it comes with them or can come with them, but again reference to the Ice Dragon suggests it isn't evil per se. If, according to Old Nan, the White Walkers kill every living thing it isn't because they dismember babies for fun, but because everywhere they go they are accompanied by an intense cold - which destroys dragons

[Lummel]

I suppose it could be possible that when Luwin(?) said they forged the seven kingdoms, from a hundred, before the Andal invasion, that Dorne was always considered seperate, maybe. We have not(?) heard anything about Dorne during those periods and I don't recall anything about the children being there. The people of Dorne are aware of the COTF, but I don't remember any stories of them inhabiting Dorne, the first men either. Only the breaking of the Arm, but maybe they did that from Moat Cailin, right?

It does seem a bit odd to me that there were seven kingdoms before the andals came and still seven kingdoms before the targaryens came. Not sure if it's a big deal, maybe its just one of those westerosi history is a bit murky kind of things...

[tze]

But are the pasts of these heroes significant? Do we think that the story is cyclical and those heroes paths will be repeated closely (in which case the differences might be significant) or are those future heroes going to emerge free of baggage and be very different from the last time round?

I think it simply goes toward what this person is "destined" to do (not speaking of whether or not this person will succeed). If Azor Ahai was the mythical founder of the Valyrian Empire, for example, then a prophecy saying he'll be reborn would logically point toward someone destined to rebuild the Valyrian Empire, not someone destined to defeat ancient ice zombies on a continent Valyria never even touched. If he is in fact the guy who defeated the Others the first time around, then the more we know about him, the easier it is to suss out which person actually is the new AA, based on parallels between the two, and thus, which person will "defeat" the Others. We've had many, many parallels between figures in modern-day Westeros and figures from the past, but it's pretty much impossible to make a guess about what so-and-so in the present, who has a lot in common with so-and-so from the past, will end up doing in the future, if we don't know what that person's historical analogue actually did in the past for purposes of comparison.

As to the cold; there's no question that it kills and by comparing what we know of the Ice Dragon and the White Walkers little doubt that it comes with them or can come with them, but again reference to the Ice Dragon suggests it isn't evil per se. If, according to Old Nan, the White Walkers kill every living thing it isn't because they dismember babies for fun, but because everywhere they go they are accompanied by an intense cold - which destroys dragons

I'm very curious to hear exactly what stories Old Nan told Jon about ice dragons. She couldn't literally have told him the "Adara" story since GRRM has said that "The Ice Dragon" doesn't take place in the world of ASOIAF, but perhaps there are stories involving the Starks and ice dragons? Did Brandon the Builder use an ice dragon to raise the Wall? If you want a giant wall of ice, a creature who basically breathes cold would be incredibly useful.

Do the Others ride on Ice Dragons? Or perhaps, some special "breed" of Others that we haven't yet encountered? (It would clarify where the term "white walker" came from---to distinguish between the Others who fly and those who don't).

[Ibbison from Ibben]

It does seem a bit odd to me that there were seven kingdoms before the andals came and still seven kingdoms before the targaryens came. Not sure if it's a big deal, maybe its just one of those westerosi history is a bit murky kind of things...

From a geographical viewpoint, it's pretty easy to imagine the North, the Westerlands, the Iron Islands, the Vale, and Dorne as being able to maintain a stable existence as separate nations. The problem comes with the Riverlands, the Reach, and the Stormlands. Why were they never united by one House? (At the time of Aegon's Conquest, the Iron Islands ruled the Riverlands, making seven kingdoms out of the potential eight. And do you count Dorne?) And what kingdom were the Crownlands a part of before the Conquest?

The fact that there were "seven" at the time of the Andal invasion and still "seven" at the time of Aegon's Conquest would point to a geographical answer. The Riverlands consisted of the Trident basin. The Reach consisted of the Mander basin. For some reason, the Blackwater served as a border, not the center of a separate holding. The Stormlords got the coast. And you count or don't count Dorne as needed in order to get to seven?!?!?

[Elaena Targaryen]

Question, some of you was discussing how the different types of magic that we see might be connected. Do you think it might be possible that the children can use glamors? It could open more possibilities for sure. After reading the posts and hotweaselsoup’s post about Mel and Ghost I was curious.

If we look at Bloodraven you can wonder. We know he is a greenseer, warg/skinchanger, sorcerer, and has used a glamor. We know BR comes from the First Men and suspect this is where those abilities came from. He has always been tied to the weirwoods, with the weirwood bows, red eyes and white skin/hair, and his sigil, the white dragon with red eyes. We know BR wargs, we see him do it in ADWD, maybe the eagle in TMK, and the phrase a thousand eyes and one has always been around, I suspect his warging ability helped him spy when he was Hand.

How did Bloodraven use the glamor in TMK, it’s not proven but it is strongly hinted at. So he is half Targaryen and they have to use some magic to birth and control their dragons. BR was in love with Shiera Seastar, her mother from Lys and from Valyrian nobility. It has been said Shiera and her mother practiced “the dark arts.” Also Shiera wore a jewel necklace to compliment her eyes, but I think it being a “famous” necklace could hint at something else. So BR could have different abilities from several sources, but maybe or maybe not. Maybe he taught this to the children, who knows, it’s hard to guess.

Now look at the Ghost of High Heart. First Jenny of Oldstones claimed she was one of the COTF, but we know the description doesn’t match. What we do know is the woods witch was already old at the time of the Summerhall incident, I’ve always been curios concerning her age. She is described with very pale flesh, red eyes, very short in stature, with visions of the future that people put a lot of faith in. The GOHH also stays close to a sight of import with weirwoods, albeit cut down weirwoods. Could she be using a glamor to look normal to people and hide being one of the children? I would think she would need to hide it, if she might be one.

It could be possible that Leaf used a glamor on her travels, and would make a lot of sense. I’ve heard it speculated that Leaf traveled around learning things to prepare for Bran coming. How could she have any contact with men the way she looks? I’m sure Leaf could hide and blend in to the surroundings and only observe, but I’d imagine that could pose difficulties as well. I suppose all of this is totally crazy and very crackpot, but I just wondered if it could be possible that the children might be able to use glamors. It could tie together the different forms of magic even more.

BTW; I love all of the talk of Ice Dragons, Jon brings it up to many times methinks, and it would be so sweet!

[Ibbison from Ibben]

I suppose it could be possible that when Luwin(?) said they forged the seven kingdoms, from a hundred, before the Andal invasion, that Dorne was always considered seperate, maybe. We have not(?) heard anything about Dorne during those periods and I don't recall anything about the children being there. The people of Dorne are aware of the COTF, but I don't remember any stories of them inhabiting Dorne, the first men either. Only the breaking of the Arm, but maybe they did that from Moat Cailin, right?

The Arianne II chapter that GRRM read at some convention revealed caves previously inhabited by the CotF in the Dornish Marches along the Boneway, I believe. Not exactly in Dorne, but close.