Errant Bard Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 If nobody tells the truth ever, which is possible, the only thing that matters is whether Aegon is accepted as authentic. That depends entirely on his success on the battlefield/political field.Even if everyone tells the truth. Truth has no properties that makes it more likely to be believed than a good lie.It applies for Aegon as much as it does for Jon or Robert Arryn (for whom GRRM told a reader than even if sweetrobin had been LF's child, there's no DNA test in Westeros) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanTasy Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 As said up thread it could well be it doesn't matter if Aegon is a fake.That he is the 'mummer's dragon', as said in the prophecy, is no proof that he is fake. The mummer (Varys) could have a real dragon ...That it is a cliché, a prince that is supposed to be dead but lives, doesn't proof he is a fake. The bastard boy being in reality a prince is a cliché as well.Baby Aegon being smuggled away from Kings Landing when the enemy armies were marching to where the king and his heir were, to me it seems believable. Cersei did just the same with Tommen when Stannis' army was expected to show up.Aegon being fake or real doesn't make R+L=J impossible. It doesn't make impossible what some boarders think: that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married and that their child was legitimate.Aegon may be a fake. He may be real. Until now there is no conclusive evidence for the one or the other.Intrestingly the wiki here at westeros.org seems to acknowledge him as real:http://awoiaf.wester...Aegon_Targaryen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Aegon may be a fake. He may be real. Until now there is no conclusive evidence for the one or the other.Intrestingly the wiki here at westeros.org seems to acknowledge him as real:http://awoiaf.wester...Aegon_TargaryenHa! Even more evidence that the wiki is unreliable ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidjones2492 Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 As said up thread it could well be it doesn't matter if Aegon is a fake.That he is the 'mummer's dragon', as said in the prophecy, is no proof that he is fake. The mummer (Varys) could have a real dragon ...That it is a cliché, a prince that is supposed to be dead but lives, doesn't proof he is a fake. The bastard boy being in reality a prince is a cliché as well.Baby Aegon being smuggled away from Kings Landing when the enemy armies were marching to where the king and his heir were, to me it seems believable. Cersei did just the same with Tommen when Stannis' army was expected to show up.Aegon being fake or real doesn't make R+L=J impossible. It doesn't make impossible what some boarders think: that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married and that their child was legitimate.It doesn't make R + L= J impossible, but it does make it a big anti-climax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanTasy Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 It doesn't make R + L= J impossible, but it does make it a big anti-climax.Possibly. But I also often wondered why Jon would be pleased if it was proven that he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and not Ned's.I think that knowing the truth is nearly always better than not knowing.But what would this mean to Jon?Ned lying to him his whole life, denying him the truth.His paternal grandfather responsible for the horrible deaths of his maternal grandfather and uncle.His father -unless there will be proof that Lyanna went willingly - kidnapper and raper of his mumIf there is no proof that his parents were married - he stays a bastardIf there is proof that his parents were married - why would he want to be the heir to the Seven Kingdoms, his life in constant perilSome truths are poisonous :frown5:The only good thing could be he finds another half-brother, Aegon :cool4: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 As I recall Aegon was "a babe at the breast" when Gregor seized him and dashed his head aganst the wall. If Varys is telling it truly, I wonder how he convinced the princess to nurse a peasant's child. The whole story stinks of plotting by the Spider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickStormborn Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Everyone has already pointed out why Aegon being fake is so likely, but the thing that seals the deal for me is the visions at the House of the Undying. They show a mummer's dragon and call her the "slayer of lies". This would suggest that, when Dany gets to Westeros, there will be a fake Targaryen competing for the throne. Unless Martin intends to create another fake Targ, Aegon fits the bill quite nicely. Mummer's could be possessive and refer to Varys' dragon, yes, but "mummer's" has also been used to mean "fake". Dany notes that Xaro can cry "mummer's tears". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 My question would be: why did he save Aegon and not Rhaenys? And more than that: why did he do a switch at all? Hiding with kids seems pretty doable, you know. Seems not doing a switch worked pretty well for Tyrion, for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Possibly. But I also often wondered why Jon would be pleased if it was proven that he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, and not Ned's. I think that knowing the truth is nearly always better than not knowing. But what would this mean to Jon? Ned lying to him his whole life, denying him the truth. His paternal grandfather responsible for the horrible deaths of his maternal grandfather and uncle. His father -unless there will be proof that Lyanna went willingly - kidnapper and raper of his mum If there is no proof that his parents were married - he stays a bastard If there is proof that his parents were married - why would he want to be the heir to the Seven Kingdoms, his life in constant peril Some truths are poisonous :frown5: The only good thing could be he finds another half-brother, Aegon :cool4: I will say that the King's Guard vouched for Jon's parentage with their lives. There is only one reason that stayed at the Tower of Joy and defended it against Ned, their vow to protect the king. Ned offered the King's Guard every available exit from the confrontation, which they refused, because of their vow . That Lyanna went willingly with Rhaegar is suggested by her abhorrance of her betrothed Robert, and by the fact that Rhaegar and she could only have been married to have her birth the heir to the Iron Throne; in the eyes of the King's Guard. That Ned protected him from the King will be obvious to Jon. That Ned did this through sacrificing his honor will mean a great deal to Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanTasy Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I will say that the King's Guard vouched for Jon's parentage with their lives. There is only one reason that stayed at the Tower of Joy and defended it against Ned, their vow to protect the king. Ned offered the King's Guard every available exit from the confrontation, which they refused, because of their vow . That Lyanna went willingly with Rhaegar is suggested by her abhorrance of her betrothed Robert, and by the fact that Rhaegar and she could only have been married to have her birth the heir to the Iron Throne; in the eyes of the King's Guard.That Ned protected him from the King will be obvious to Jon. That Ned did this through sacrificing his honor will mean a great deal to Jon.Well, this and other beliefs have been discussed profoundly at the various threads called R+L=J :drunk: Happily GRRM stated recently that in the next books we will hear more about Rhaegar and Lyanna. I expect the thread R+L=J # will be well into the fifties before TWOW will be released ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanTasy Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 My question would be: why did he save Aegon and not Rhaenys? And more than that: why did he do a switch at all? Hiding with kids seems pretty doable, you know. Seems not doing a switch worked pretty well for Tyrion, for example.Yes, good question. I think it was because Aegon was considered more valuable than Rhaenys. Having the king and the crown prince at the same spot when the enemy is going to get you seems not a good thing. Rhaenys and Elia staying at Kings Landing could have been acting as a smoke screen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bran Vras Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 My question would be: why did he save Aegon and not Rhaenys? And more than that: why did he do a switch at all? Hiding with kids seems pretty doable, you know. Seems not doing a switch worked pretty well for Tyrion, for example.Good point. In fact, not having switched Aegon would make his current claim more credible. It would have been known that Aegon escaped and his return would be expected, and hoped for by many. Suppose Aegon escaped and there was no switch. Wasn't it in the interest of Tywin Lannister to present the corpse of some baby as the dead Aegon? Nobody would be there to contradict him, and, later, any self-proclaimed prince could easily be dismissed as an imposter. The story of Gregor Clegane killing Elia and her son has been confirmed by whom exactly?As said up thread it could well be it doesn't matter if Aegon is a fake.Oh. I am not surprised not to be the first to make this point. It's hard to imagine a way for Aegon to prove that he is Rhaegar's heir. Varys might know, but how could he convince anybody? Perhaps some woman will admit having sold her newborn to him. So what. Even if young Aegon survived, he might have been switched again later.It's possible that somebody in the Red Keep at the time has seen something. Jaime Lannister? Who else? So that leaves two possibilities, either the question will remain open, or it will be revealed that Aegon is fake. It sounds like mathematical logic. A mathematical statement can be in the following situation: (1) either being true and unprovable, or (2) being false and disprovable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanTasy Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 The story of Gregor Clegane killing Elia and her son has been confirmed by whom exactly?By Gregor. ASOS Tyrion X Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tini Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 As I recall Aegon was "a babe at the breast" when Gregor seized him and dashed his head aganst the wall. If Varys is telling it truly, I wonder how he convinced the princess to nurse a peasant's child. The whole story stinks of plotting by the Spider.The princess was sickly, and pregnancy may not have improved her health. The boy may have had a wetnurse, so Varys may not have had to convince her to nurse the substitute herself. If we assume that she was aware of the baby switch, Varys may have told her that it had to be done to keep her son safe. Either to keep him safe from King Aerys, or to keep him safe by order of King Aerys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 The mystery over Aegon's parentage is likely to be resolved because of the conflicting claims for the throne between him and Dany. I doubt somehow that Dany's reaction to Aegon popping up will be to hurry to Westeros to pinch her nephew's cheeks.Barristan and Tyrion will presumably have some interesting conversations and add further nuggets of information to the debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bran Vras Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 By Gregor. ASOS Tyrion XThanks for the reference. Just a few more thoughts on the matter. Suppose that Clegane never found Aegon but murdered Elia. At the end of the duel, Gregor, who had never denied having killed Aegon before, was in boasting mode and was trying to be as hurtful verbally to Oberyn as he could. So I am not sure his confession is a proof of culpability. But that wouldn't be fair on the part of GRRM to have tricked us like this. And there is no indication that Tywin ever feared Aegon's return. So I accept that a murder took place.The mystery over Aegon's parentage is likely to be resolved because of the conflicting claims for the throne between him and Dany. I doubt somehow that Dany's reaction to Aegon popping up will be to hurry to Westeros to pinch her nephew's cheeks.Barristan and Tyrion will presumably have some interesting conversations and add further nuggets of information to the debate.What could they know? Neither of them was in the Red Keep at the time. There is the story of Barristan considering leaving the Kingsguard according to the reaction of Robert at the sight of the dead children. But that was some time later. I do not see anybody alive who could inform us. Well, there is the old cat, supposedly warged by Bloodraven... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FanTasy Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 What could they know? Neither of them was in the Red Keep at the time. There is the story of Barristan considering leaving the Kingsguard according to the reaction of Robert at the sight of the dead children. But that was some time later. I do not see anybody alive who could inform us. Well, there is the old cat, supposedly warged by Bloodraven...If Ashara Dayne is still alive, she could tell us something about Baby Aegon, being Elia's hand maiden :frown5: I had high hopes of getting Barristan and Lemore in the same room ... but I suspect Lemore is in Westeros and Barristan is still lingering in that annoying Meereen ...Varys probably knows more than he said until know. Someone should 'tickle' him ... sharply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bran Vras Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 If Ashara Dayne is still alive, she could tell us something about Baby Aegon, being Elia's hand maiden :frown5: I had high hopes of getting Barristan and Lemore in the same room ... but I suspect Lemore is in Westeros and Barristan is still lingering in that annoying Meereen ...Varys probably knows more than he said until know. Someone should 'tickle' him ... sharply.The trajectory of Ashara Dayne is not clear to me. She was not in King's Landing at the time of the fall of Aerys, was she? Assuming that she did not die in Starfall, and that she reconverted as a Septa in Essos, she did not see Aegon before he was a few years older. I am not even sure Ashara saw Aegon as baby.But you are right that a meeting between Barristan and Lemore will answer some questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigFatCoward Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I feel like we've already done this a million times before. Here are some previous threads about this.http://asoiaf.wester...rs-young-griff/http://asoiaf.wester...-aegon-vi-fake/http://asoiaf.wester...nd-young-griff/i wouldn't get snooty about it, unless you've been here from the start you will start a thread that has been done to death before a million times. everyone has done it at one time or another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 i wouldn't get snooty about it, unless you've been here from the start you will start a thread that has been done to death before a million times. everyone has done it at one time or another.Sorry for being snooty, I guess I was just having a bad day. The thing is though, I wouldn't and haven't ever started a thread that has been done a million times before. I always check, and double check, and triple check before starting. Why? Because I don't want snooty cows like me being a bitch about it. Also it fragments the conversation when it is spread over several similarly-themed threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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