dtones520 Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I would have thought Kevan would be a little preoccupied bleeding to death to quirk a skeptical eyebrow at any part of Varys' story.Then why does Varys even tell him a false story? Kevan is a dead man either way. Varys could have said "Remember the Blackfyre rebellion? Yeah, its not over." Kevan isn't going to tell anyone. So tell me, why does Varys tell a dying Kevan that Aegon is alive, if it isn't true? Like I said, why tell a dying man anything if its not the truth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eejit Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I think Varys probably was telling him the truth, best you ask someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dtones520 Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I think Varys probably was telling him the truth, best you ask someone else.I wasn't specifically asking you, I just was more going off your point.With that said, for all of you fake-Aegon theorists or Blackfyre Aegon theorists, what is your explanation for why Varys bothers telling a dying Kevan Lannister that Aegon was never killed? There is no need to lie to him, he's dead either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eejit Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Quite a few of them seem to think Varys was lying to his indoctrinated mute killer spy children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I wasn't specifically asking you, I just was more going off your point.With that said, for all of you fake-Aegon theorists or Blackfyre Aegon theorists, what is your explanation for why Varys bothers telling a dying Kevan Lannister that Aegon was never killed? There is no need to lie to him, he's dead either way.Your question was addressed earlier in this very thread (starting on page 3). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dtones520 Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I posted this in the thread on the General board, but I'll put it here too.Here's a question for posters who doubt that Aegon is fake.If the kid is real, why the secrecy? Why not be more open about the fact that Aegon survived? Everyone knows that Viserys and Dany are still alive and no one seems to really care, insofar as trying to do them harm. Robert only put a hit on Dany when she got married and got pregnant; there's no evidence that "the Usurper's knives" were ever a real thing. Viserys was just as much the "real" Targaryen heir in exile as Aegon would have been. If Aegon had really survived and this knowledge was out there, at best he could have been a rallying point for pro-Targaryen factions, set up a court in exile and been a constant reminder of Targaryen legitimacy in Essos. At worst, Robert probably would have ignored him the way he did Dany and Viserys. It actually seems to work against a Targaryen succession plot by waiting for the kid to "stew" before "revealing" him. It gave the Baratheons and Lannisters the time and ability to set up a dynastic foundation that will be that much harder to challenge than it would have been if Aegon had always been there, waiting in the wings, and people knew it. It also makes the reveal that much more suspicious — if Aegon is real, they're making it very easy for people within Westeros to write him off as a fraud even if that isn't a case. If the baby Aegon had been revealed from the moment he made his escape, the Kingsguard could have gone to protect him and his legitimacy wouldn't be in question because people would be able to watch him grow up.So why do you hide the "true heir" for a decade and a half when you have no really good empirical reason to? You do it if you don't have the "true heir" and need to fudge the timeline.ETA: Here's a crackpot theory for you. Aegon is real, and the "mummer's dragon" just refers to him being "Varys' dragon," as some people suggest. Dany doesn't believe this and in her prophecy-fueled paranoia believes that "mummer's dragon" means "fake dragon." She and Aegon go to war over it in Dance of the Dragons Part Deux. She wins and kills Aegon, only to find out somehow that he was the real thing, and now she's a kinslayer who also killed her "rightful king." I still think the little shit's a fake, but man that development would blow my mind. :DThe reason they don't reveal Aegon right away is that you have the true Targaryan heir to the throne in your pocket as an infant. You can now raise this child to be the king or man you want him to be. Compare Aegon to Viserys, Viserys grew up thinking his birth right was stolen from him and it drove him mad, he has no one guiding him, teaching him how to be a king. He just knew it was his by rights. Aegon was brought up, according to Varys, to be a truly great king. He was taught what it was like to be a peasant, etc. If Varys is truly doing what he does for the realm, not revealing Aegon is the best thing to do. You reveal Aegon and you have Targ supporters lining up to bend the knee to their true King and he becomes no different than Viserys... a spoiled brat who is demanding he get what is rightfully his. Not that Viserys ever had supporters lining up to bend the knee, but outside of always being in the move he got a lot because of his name.Plus, you avoid the potential for Roberts hired knives, true or not, coming after you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buried Treasure Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I'm in the I think 'Aegon is fake but am open to the possibility he's real' camp and my thoughts on what Varys said to Kevan are: I have no idea what Varys' goals are, I don't trust him and I make a general policy of not using any of his utterances as evidence of anything.The only thing I believe is true of Varys is that he hates magic because a sorcerer cut his balls off, other than that I have no read on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 The reason they don't reveal Aegon right away is that you have the true Targaryan heir to the throne in your pocket as an infant. You can now raise this child to be the king or man you want him to be. Compare Aegon to Viserys, Viserys grew up thinking his birth right was stolen from him and it drove him mad, he has no one guiding him, teaching him how to be a king. He just knew it was his by rights. Aegon was brought up, according to Varys, to be a truly great king. He was taught what it was like to be a peasant, etc. If Varys is truly doing what he does for the realm, not revealing Aegon is the best thing to do....Plus, you avoid the potential for Roberts hired knives, true or not, coming after you.If you tell the boy he is the true King they he's liable to develop the idea, reasonably enough, that power and authority will be his by right. Being known publicly will not help or hinder that process and as soon as he is publicly revealed there will be people prepared to bend the knee, lavish praise and admire him in order to get what they can.Essentially by hiding him V&I create a situation in which Aegon legitimacy is going to be doubted, forego the opportunity to build up a court in exile, forgo the opportunity to sound out potential supporters in Westeros and gain nothing in exchange. Odd behaviour...if he is genuine.As for the assassins knives since Varys is the master of whispers and apparently in charge of covert operations for King Bob Aegon need have nothing to fear anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willdabeast94 Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Also, from a storytelling point Aegon has to be fake. If he were real, the whole speculation about R+L=J would be pointless, and the real Aegon has a better claim to the throne as Dany as well.If he were real, Jon will stay dead, having served as a placeholder, and Dany can stay in Essos as long as she likes. That would seem to be a mayor shift in the story.He doesn't necessarily have to be fake. There is a very good chance that he'll die fighting the Lannisters or the Tyrels. George Martin kills off characters that cause problems to the story, he doesn't make them fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jem Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 People talk about how Aegon being real and how it makes Jons role less important, I don't agree with that. Jon, Danerys and Aegon were all born around the same time, probably within a few months, if not weeks of each other. It is said that there was comet seen at Aegons birth, which cause Rhaegar to believe that he was the PtwP, if they were all born around the same time that comet could have been seen at all of their births. If the Dragon needs three heads, Jon, Danerys and Aegon fit the billing for that. So, Aegon being realonly makes Jon and Danys story more important because the Dragon needs three heads and they, if R+L=J is true, are those three heads.Also, I think the beware of the Mummers Dragon is more in reference to Varys himself than Aegon. If she can make Aegon her dragon, not Varys' toy, she has the second head, then just needs to get to the Wall and Jon to complete the three heads and the Song if Ice and Fire.Aegon, Jon and Dany weren't born that close together. Aegon was about a year older than Jon and Jon was about nine months older than Dany. 21 months seems like a pretty long time for a comet to be visible to me, but hey, I'm not an astronomer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dtones520 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Aegon, Jon and Dany weren't born that close together. Aegon was about a year older than Jon and Jon was about nine months older than Dany. 21 months seems like a pretty long time for a comet to be visible to me, but hey, I'm not an astronomer.Comets usually can be seen for, up to, a month on earth. I was thinking they were a little closer in age though. Even still, if Aegon is real and is the PtwP, Jon and Dany could still be the two other heads of the Dragon, considering they are the last three of Targ blood alive. Plus, in this fantasy world, I guess a comet could last that long. I dunno, it just feels too obvious that Aegon is fake. Danyerys' prophecies have never been straight forward. Aegon being fake just seems too easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokefall Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Hiya, I'm not sure if this is the right topic to post in, but I'm newish here (big hello from Ireland! Love this forum). I've been wondering if Aegon might be the bastard of Aerys and Ashara Dayne, conceived at Harrenhal... that Aerys was the one who "dishonoured" Ashara, as Barristan remembers, and that Ashara gave her son to Elia when the latter's child was stillborn (I heard this scenario being proposed somewhere). If this is the case I'm not sure how much Varys would know, but it allows for him making the switch AND Aegon not being the true heir. It could also explain the Blackfyre connection: Aegon would be a Targaryen bastard. If Varys IS a Blackfyre sympathiser, he and the Golden company would probably see poetic justice being done (if they know the truth). Varys' protection of Roberts' bastards could be a foreshadowing of this. Could the Septa-Lemore-as-Ashara fit into this? She's there with her son, but it would complicate her relationship with Jon Connington. Havn't fully thought through all the ramifications, but I think it could be a fascinating scenario. Greets x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Comets usually can be seen for, up to, a month on earth. I was thinking they were a little closer in age though. Even still, if Aegon is real and is the PtwP, Jon and Dany could still be the two other heads of the Dragon, considering they are the last three of Targ blood alive. Plus, in this fantasy world, I guess a comet could last that long.I dunno, it just feels too obvious that Aegon is fake. Danyerys' prophecies have never been straight forward. Aegon being fake just seems too easy.Actually I think it's too easy to have the "real heir" show up five books in and render everything up until this point moot. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tini Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 If Aegon was raised believing to be Aegon Targaryen, and wins Westeros as Aegon Targaryen, he will feel betrayed if they ever try to out him as something else. He might not believe them, he might harbor resentment against them - and, as king, he might act on that resentment. Jon Connington would feel betrayed, too, and that would make him (even more) dangerous. Sure, something can happen to Jon Connington - but if Aegon ever suspects that Varys and Illyrio have something to do with Connington's death, I think he will turn against them.If he really is a Blackfyre, Varys and Illyrio will be well advised to let him and Connington continue to believe the lie that he is Aegon Targaryen. In which case, the Blackfyre rebellion will have ultimately failed in the eyes of men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eejit Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 It doesn't render anything moot if he dies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tini Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 It doesn't render anything moot even if he lives. Him showing up 5 books in doesn't solve any problems. It just creates new ones. The time travel theories surrounding Bran, on the other hand, would render the entire plot moot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the average Other Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Aegon, Jon and Dany weren't born that close together. Aegon was about a year older than Jon and Jon was about nine months older than Dany. 21 months seems like a pretty long time for a comet to be visible to me, but hey, I'm not an astronomer.Agreed, but there's still a chance that the comet hung around long enough for Jon to be conceived under it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the Scorpion Knight Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Agreed, but there's still a chance that the comet hung around long enough for Jon to be conceived under it.dany was born last Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buried Treasure Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Was the comet at Aegon's birth? We are discussing the comet that Maester Aemon told Sam of right? I thought that appeared when Rhaegar was born, and was one of the facts that initially led him to believe he was the PwwP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Was the comet at Aegon's birth? We are discussing the comet that Maester Aemon told Sam of right? I thought that appeared when Rhaegar was born, and was one of the facts that initially led him to believe he was the PwwP.The comet appeared when Aegon was conceived. There was no comet on the night of Rhaegar's birth, as far as we know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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