The Meeraculous Third Reed Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 People that train young girls to be sex slaves are not good people. End of. I don't see how this is even an argument.You should read Mrs Warren's Profession.Anyway, this isn't my point. The point is it's ridiculous to accuse Petyr of mistreating Jeyne when the options were sex slave or death, Take his brothels out of the equation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 You should read Mrs Warren's Profession. Anyway, this isn't my point. The point is it's ridiculous to accuse Petyr of mistreating Jeyne when the options were sex slave or death, Take his brothels out of the equation. If LF was a good person he could have refused to take any part on it. The Lannisters could easily have found someone else to do it and he probably could have gotten away with it seeing as he's so powerful and useful. They're not going to execute him for treason if he were to refuse to train one girl as a sex slave. But it didn't because it's not in his nature. Evil is in his nature.I really don't see how you can think that someone who trains preteens to be sex slaves is not evil. It's certainly not good and frankly I'm quite disturbed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Also just looked at that Mrs. Warren's proffesion thing on wikipedia. Can't see what it has to do with sexually enslaving children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Also just looked at that Mrs. Warren's proffesion thing on wikipedia. Can't see what it has to do with sexually enslaving children.Mrs Warren runs brothels but is not an evil person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Mrs Warren runs brothels but is not an evil person.Are children employed in these brothels?I'm not talking about LF being evil for running brothels, so long as it's consensual people can sell their bodies as much as they want. Forcibly training a young girl how to pleasure a physcopath is a whole different kettle of fish and I'm kind of boggled as to how this is a point of contention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Are children employed in these brothels?I'm not talking about LF being evil for running brothels, so long as it's consensual people can sell their bodies as much as they want. Forcibly training a young girl how to pleasure a physcopath is a whole different kettle of fish and I'm kind of boggled as to how this is a point of contention.For the sake of argument (I agree with you that it is reprehensible), didn't geishas not require consent? The girls were sold very young by their families. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Meeraculous Third Reed Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 If LF was a good person he could have refused to take any part on it. The Lannisters could easily have found someone else to do it and he probably could have gotten away with it seeing as he's so powerful and useful. They're not going to execute him for treason if he were to refuse to train one girl as a sex slave. But it didn't because it's not in his nature. Evil is in his nature.Why give the Lannisters any reason to suspect him? Baelish isn't stupid.I really don't see how you can think that someone who trains preteens to be sex slaves is not evil. It's certainly not good and frankly I'm quite disturbed.She would have been a sex slave or she would have been killed. I really don't think training a girl to please her future husband (another thing which her life would depend on) in a society which considers a woman who has "blooded" to be ready for intercourse is that bad of a thing (in the context of Westerosi culture). It's certainly amoral, but I wouldn't argue that it's immoral. I imagine most young girls growing up in a brothel culture would be taught how (which is different from acting out and performing) to please their future clients.I'm not talking about LF being evil for running brothels, so long as it's consensual people can sell their bodies as much as they want. Forcibly training a young girl how to pleasure a physcopath is a whole different kettle of fish and I'm kind of boggled as to how this is a point of contention.It's a point of contention because you are (purposefully?) seeing the events from just one side of the argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grail King Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Mrs Warren runs brothels but is not an evil person.Not evil in the sense of LF perhaps, but she basicly replaced the male role for the young woman/girls in sofar as they now depend on Kitty for their support as nothing else is open to them in their society, just like in Westerous, the Stark girls and I will add the Stark's helpers kids had their education and chances for betterment taken from them by Balesih's actions ( there are others too), Jeyne under the starks could have married up to a better house and her children also could improve them selves but that was taken away and they may not ever get it back.And in the end what happened between Kitty and Vivie, did the mother consider it worth it in the end?Also the girls were quite young that she peddled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morte Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I just wanted to mention, that - at least in my memory - the Lannisters have nothing to do with Jeyne's "training" in the brothel - Cersei only gives Jeyne to LF, so he takes care of her, Cersei is not searching for a brothel for the girl.So: LF could have easily put Jeyne somewhere save, sent her north, make a service girl out of her etc. - if he cared at all, if he would have at least one drop of goodness in his blood, but he doesn't, so: what does this make him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the Scorpion Knight Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Which in turn probably saved her from being killed.I think LF he gave her to ramsey to die (he just accounted on the girls death I have to admit theon is remarkliblyBaelish isn't evil. He's self-centered, practical, and lacking in compassion. You may not like that about him, but he's a few steps from qualifying as evil.Theon is grey, Victarion, jaime and tyrion are grey. Ollena Stannis(big maybe) and several others are grey. LF is pitchblack evil in löeague with roose, walder, ramsey and gregor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Why do you think Ramsay would've killed Jeyne if not for the sex training? He's a psychopath, but he's not completely crazy. He needs his fake Arya. Not to mention hat most likely Jeyne's training started before the plot to marry her to Ramsay was hatched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Meeraculous Third Reed Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 So: LF could have easily put Jeyne somewhere save, sent her north, make a service girl out of her etc. - if he cared at all, if he would have at least one drop of goodness in his blood, but he doesn't, so: what does this make him?Not worth the risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morte Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Not worth the risk.There was no risk, as the Lannisters didn't care about her at this moment.Edit: And: Still no reason to put her in a brothel and train her to become a prostitute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the Scorpion Knight Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Why do you think Ramsay would've killed Jeyne if not for the sex training? He's a psychopath, but he's not completely crazy. He needs his fake Arya.not completly crazy???? :shocked: :wacko: she weeps contanly, has bitemarks on her breast, is scared shitless when someone enters the room, and wanted her to mate with one of his dogs :ack:and lady dustin told to be nice to her Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Not worth the risk.It is If you're a decent person who cares about others. And that's my point, LF isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Why give the Lannisters any reason to suspect him? Baelish isn't stupid.She would have been a sex slave or she would have been killed. I really don't think training a girl to please her future husband (another thing which her life would depend on) in a society which considers a woman who has "blooded" to be ready for intercourse is that bad of a thing (in the context of Westerosi culture). It's certainly amoral, but I wouldn't argue that it's immoral. I imagine most young girls growing up in a brothel culture would be taught how (which is different from acting out and performing) to please their future clients.It's a point of contention because you are (purposefully?) seeing the events from just one side of the argument.I'm only seeing the events from one side of the argument because as I see it, there is no sane reason that LF's treatment of Jeyne is not bad. Let me take you through it:Jeyne is roughly thirteen years old. After having been implicit in her father's and her households murder, LF takes her to a brothel, and forces her to learn how to sexually pleasure people. Considering the fact the she's probably a virgin at that point, that counts as sexual abuse. He then sends her off to be married to a mad man who gets off from flaying the skin off of people, and hunting women for sport - something LF knows fullwell. Pray tell, which part of this are you advocating? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Meeraculous Third Reed Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 There was no risk, as the Lannisters didn't care about her at this moment.Edit: And: Still no reason to put her in a brothel and train her to become a prostitute.Ok. Here's the thing. Littlefinger relies on his ability to create this air of loyalty to the Lannisters. In order to do this he takes many many precautions. He is obsessed with keeping his hands clean. Now, we don't know at what point he began thinking about taking Sansa away, but regardless, to do so effectively he had to create the impression of not caring about her. By seeking preferential treatment for Jeyne, he ran the risk of questions being raised. Why did he send her North/get her placed in a lord's manor when he could have just made her a prostitute? Did Sansa ask about her? Is he conspiring with a Northern family? You'll say oh that's thinking too far ahead. Yet Littlefinger always thinks ahead. He takes calculated risks. Risks which produce benefits. Doing anything other than making Jeyne a prostitute would not be a calculated risk.It's also probably worth pointing out that a well run brothel would probably be a safer place for Jeyne than many other places.I'll retract what I said about Jeyne's sexual performance (or lack of it) being potentially fatal. I do however believe that Ramsay would treat her slightly better if she was "doing her duties". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 not completly crazy???? :shocked: :wacko: she weeps contanly, has bitemarks on her breast, is scared shitless when someone enters the room, and wanted her to mate with one of his dogs :ack:and lady dustin told to be nice to her All that is horrible and Ramsay's certainly a monster and a bad politician unlike his father, but my point is he can still control himself enough not to kill her unless she really provoked him. And I don't think LF's training of Jeyne makes much difference for him either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Meeraculous Third Reed Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Jeyne is roughly thirteen years old. After having been implicit in her father's and her households murder, LF takes her to a brothel, and forces her to learn how to sexually pleasure people. Considering the fact the she's probably a virgin at that point, that counts as sexual abuse.Well as I stated, there's a far deeper context to this issue than you're giving it. "Being taught" isn't the same as "doing" and the Westorosi notions of "legal" and "illegal" are not like our own. He then sends her off to be married to a mad man who gets off from flaying the skin off of people, and hunting women for sport - something LF knows fullwell. Pray tell, which part of this are you advocating?I'm pretty sure Littlefinger had left King's Landing by the time Poole was sent away to Ramsay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Well as I stated, there's a far deeper context to this issue than you're giving it. "Being taught" isn't the same as "doing" and the Westorosi notions of "legal" and "illegal" are not like our own.I'm pretty sure Littlefinger had left King's Landing by the time Poole was sent away to Ramsay.No Westeros' legal system isn't the same as ours, but just because something is legal it doesn't make it right. And he still had her trained for the purpose of sending her off to Ramsay even if he was gone by that point.I think we're going to have to agree to disagree. You condone the sexual slavery of children, I don't. I think we'll just have to accept each other's opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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