Little Finger's Death.

[Guess who's back]

I'm one of those very few people that don't want to see LF dead. At least he gets the things moving, unlike that one character that still hasn't set foot in Westeros.

[Modesty Lannister]

To the Sun of Dorne: Oh, where does one start.

1. Sansa does not look like a Stark. She looks like a Tully.

2. She never warmed to the old Gods and could not wait to go to the south.

3. She did not back Aria after the Trident swording incident.

4. She went against her own father and told Cersei Ned plans.

And all that after, in your words, she had her agency. And while she "had her agency", she was a stupid, spoilt, snobby brat not unlike her uncle Edmure. After losing "her agency", she went through all the phases of the post traumatic stress syndrome, which is to be expected, but learned to respect Stark values more. That however, does not mean she adopted those values, especially since no one in her Red Keep environment shared her values. Symbolically, she became dead to her Stark pack the day Lady died. And I'm still not sure why you obsess about her beheading Littlefinger. She is not Aria.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

To the Sun of Dorne: Oh, where does one start.

1. Sansa does not look like a Stark. She looks like a Tully.

Bran, Rickon and Robb also have the Tully look. No one questions their 'starkness'

2. She never warmed to the old Gods and could not wait to go to the south.

now you are being ridiculous. That was only in the beginning of agot. She prays in the godswood at the end of it and does so in acok, asos, puts a godswood in her snow replica of Winterfell and feels sad there is no godswood in the Eyrie.

3. She did not back Aria after the Trident swording incident.

and this makes her less of a stark how?

4. She went against her own father and told Cersei Ned plans.

see my above answer

And all that after, in your words, she had her agency. And while she "had her agency", she was a stupid, spoilt, snobby brat not unlike her uncle Edmure. After losing "her agency", she went through all the phases of the post traumatic stress syndrome, which is to be expected, but learned to respect Stark values more. That however, does not mean she adopted those values, especially since no one in her Red Keep environment shared her values. Symbolically, she became dead to her Stark pack the day Lady died. And I'm still not sure why you obsess about her beheading Littlefinger. She is not Aria.

what values? Please tell me what values? There is no such thing as Starkness. The only way to be a Stark is being born as a Stark and identifying yourself as a Stark which she did back in AGOT till AFFC. lol if you think that the death of lady represents such simply thing then you are insulting grrm.

[Grail King]

Littlefinger still has the dagger that he used to frame Tyrion with. She doesn't require a huge sword to kill him. There could be no greater weapon for her to kill him with.

And Littlefinger will know it is her. After he's stabbed in the back, he'll look around, see her and say something, Sansa says another, and then she'll slit his throat. I don't know where Sansa beheading people is coming from. Arya has more Stark in her than Sansa does, and she kill people with giant swords while beheading them.

You done fine until here :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Sansa is truly her fathers daughter, who's more naive Ned or Arya? Ned, Sansa or Arya? Sansa

Who's more trusting Ned or Arya? Ned, who's more trusting Sansa or Arya? Sansa

Who has ties to the Eyrie Ned or Arya? Ned, Sansa or Arya? Sansa.

Just a small reminder.

I'am the daughter of Lord Eddard Stark and Lady Catlain the blood of Winterfell.

[Modesty Lannister]

To the Sun of Dorne: If you didn't figure out what Stark values are by now, then reread the books. The references are too numerous to count. No one on this forum should discuss the way you do - with sneering and sarcasm. You have your ideas about what's going to happen and that's fine. Other people may dispute your ideas. Then you should put forward your arguments, not ostentatious brooding. I could dispute your logic until the cows come home and you'll just respond with insults. That's just not the way to discuss things.

To Grail King: Being naive has nothing to do with being a Stark. It's more of a Tully trait. By now, Arya is so emotionally damaged by grief and hardship that we cannot consider her to be totally sane. And both Sansa and Arya ARE Ned Stark's daughters. To what extent they have Stark traits, that's another question.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

To the Sun of Dorne: If you didn't figure out what Stark values are by now, then reread the books. The references are too numerous to count. No one on this forum should discuss the way you do - with sneering and sarcasm. You have your ideas about what's going to happen and that's fine. Other people may dispute your ideas. Then you should put forward your arguments, not ostentatious brooding. I could dispute your logic until the cows come home and you'll just respond with insults. That's just not the way to discuss things.

To Grail King: Being naive has nothing to do with being a Stark. It's more of a Tully trait. By now, Arya is so emotionally damaged by grief and hardship that we cannot consider her to be totally sane. And both Sansa and Arya ARE Ned Stark's daughters. To what extent they have Stark traits, that's another question.

The only Stark value is preparing yourself for the winter. That's it. If I sounded sarcastic then I apologize. I am for one extremely fed up when people raise these "Stark values" to discredit Sansa. Sansa is not the Susan Pevensie of ASOIAF. Surely you do not think that every Stark in that 8000 years of reign has the same Stark traits, right? It is heavily implied that most of the Kings of Winter did terrible things and quite some of them were most likely tyrants. There are good apples, bad apples, green apples, red apples and red/green-ish apples in the Stark family. They are all human. And it is time that the fandom realizes this.

[Grail King]

To the Sun of Dorne: If you didn't figure out what Stark values are by now, then reread the books. The references are too numerous to count. No one on this forum should discuss the way you do - with sneering and sarcasm. You have your ideas about what's going to happen and that's fine. Other people may dispute your ideas. Then you should put forward your arguments, not ostentatious brooding. I could dispute your logic until the cows come home and you'll just respond with insults. That's just not the way to discuss things.

To Grail King: Being naive has nothing to do with being a Stark. It's more of a Tully trait. By now, Arya is so emotionally damaged by grief and hardship that we cannot consider her to be totally sane. And both Sansa and Arya ARE Ned Stark's daughters. To what extent they have Stark traits, that's another question.

Well my reply to LT was saying he was good until he/she added the bolded I knew what was to follow hence the emoticons.

But since you did butt in yes they are both Starks, but Arya is Lyana/Brandon while Sansa is The Ned, they are both Cat also with Arya taking on the family honor duty, and Sansa with her mother,s looks and knowledge of womanly duties and better understanding of politics then Arya.

[bloodofwinterfell]

To the Sun of Dorne: If you didn't figure out what Stark values are by now, then reread the books. The references are too numerous to count. No one on this forum should discuss the way you do - with sneering and sarcasm. You have your ideas about what's going to happen and that's fine. Other people may dispute your ideas. Then you should put forward your arguments, not ostentatious brooding. I could dispute your logic until the cows come home and you'll just respond with insults. That's just not the way to discuss things.

To Grail King: Being naive has nothing to do with being a Stark. It's more of a Tully trait. By now, Arya is so emotionally damaged by grief and hardship that we cannot consider her to be totally sane. And both Sansa and Arya ARE Ned Stark's daughters. To what extent they have Stark traits, that's another question.

The idea of "Starkness" is ludicrous. What do you define as Starkness - being like Ned? Because by his own admission, he was the odd one out. Brandon and Lyanna had "wolf blood," and he didn't. I think it's ridiculous to confine an entire family to certain personality traits.

The only hints we have about what it means to be a Stark is to endure end prepare for winter. That's it. So if you want to argue that Sansa isn't a "true Stark" despite, you know, the fact that she IS a Stark by blood, then at least provide a definition of what it means to be a Stark and specific evidence that supports your theory. And having Catelyn's features - that Rickon, Robb, and Bran all share as well, by the way - doesn't count because that's beyond her control.

ETA: Since when does being naive have to do with being a Tully? The house is about being loyal to your family. And Catelyn is one of the most pragmatic characters in the series. Ned and Robb look far more naive in comparison to her.

[fangirl000]

While I do hope LF's plans start to unravel in the next book, I don't think he's going to die until the book after next at the earliest. He's a man who plans for contingencies - when things start to go wrong, he's going to have backup plan after backup plan, and he's going to scramble for his life until the last possible minute.

[Petyr Patter]

While I do hope LF's plans start to unravel in the next book, I don't think he's going to die until the book after next at the earliest. He's a man who plans for contingencies - when things start to go wrong, he's going to have backup plan after backup plan, and he's going to scramble for his life until the last possible minute.

Oh, I disagree. He is less of a planner, and more of an opportunist, though an opportunist who likes to create opportunities. He is also a risk taker. Let's look at an example.

When he kissed Sansa in the courtyard, he created a crisis. Lysa oversaw and could have banned Littlefinger from the Vale, or gone through and actually executed Sansa. He did it anyways. Then, Lysa blabs about her role in Jon Arryn's death and precipitating the Stark-Lannister conflict. However, Lysa also locks herself into a room with a very ill liked patsy right there. He takes advantage of the opportunity and gets rid of the troublesome Lysa and immediately frames the singer.

This was not planned. It could not have been planned. It was Littlefinger being impulsive, and impressively 'winging' it.

[Modesty Lannister]

To Petyr Patter: Your example is literally the only example of Littlefinger doing anything impulsive since his duel with Brandon Stark. And yes, you are right, he is impulsive when it comes to emotions. If he falls in love with Sansa (and all signs are there) he will become very vulnerable. That would (and probably will) lead to his death. However, when it comes to the Game of Thrones, Littlefinger plans way ahead of everybody else and is a major player. He is pulling all the major plot strings. So, if he is to die (and I think he will die in book 7), it will be close to the very end of this saga.

To bloodofwinterfell: Each house is this saga has its values. These values define them. When they go against these values, they become outcasts. Blackfish refused to marry and became an outcast. Sansa's dog being killed by Ned Stark is a major event. It symbolises her separation from the rest of her Stark pack on many levels, not only the physical one. Her building Winterfell at dawn with Littlefinger is another major symbol. Of a new dawn in Sansa's life. As for Cat Stark, she is the character who got her family into trouble in the first place. Ned didn't want to go to King's Landing. She was the one who persuaded him because she wanted girls to marry well (it's the opposite in the HBO series, but that's how it is in the book). She rushes impulsively into seizing Tyrion, frees Jamie without consulting anyone. These three actions contributed to the downfall of her house immensely. No character apart from Theon Greyjoy maybe is so impulsive and yes, stupid and naive. Her brother Edmure is also shallow, stupid and naive. Her uncle is not, but he is not a regular fish, but a black one. Lyse cannot be more stupid and naive than she is. Plus, she is mad. So, one cannot say there is a lot of wit in the Riverun fish pond.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Then by your definition Ned is also a Tully.

[David Selig]

Wait...Sansa can't be a "real" Stark because she's too naive? That makes total sense. Everyone knows "real" Starks are never naive. Ned Stark never went to his enemy to tell her he knew her deadly secret and never expected LF to destroy his career, lose everything and be fine with it because he had a crush on Cat 15 years ago. Robb never lost his most powerful bannermen in the middle of a war because he met a hot girl, not at all. Lyanna didn't run away with a married man at 14. Brandon didn't scream "Go out and die" to the crown prince in the middle of the capital. Jon Snow didn't need Tyrion to tell him that the NW are a bunch of criminals and Noye to teach him what a whiny entitled and privileged emo he was.

[The Mother of The Others]

To be fair, Sansa should then die so that Rickon can fully develop.

into a cannibal.

What about Rickon's growth? Are we going to just let Sansa continue to stand in his way???? Always looming over him, stifling his wishes to BBQ the GNC, making all the big decisions just because she's taller? Screw the tall! Rickon will stand upon their bones to reach the heights he was destined for and be fully actualized!

[Modesty Lannister]

It's good to know that in your book naive = honourable. I'll keep it mind for a future reference.

[KingOfTheRock]

I hope she develops into a strong woman like Jon developed into a strong man, except instead of "Ed, fetch me a block." It's "Harry, open the moon door."

[bloodofwinterfell]

To bloodofwinterfell: Each house is this saga has its values. These values define them. When they go against these values, they become outcasts. Blackfish refused to marry and became an outcast. Sansa's dog being killed by Ned Stark is a major event. It symbolises her separation from the rest of her Stark pack on many levels, not only the physical one. Her building Winterfell at dawn with Littlefinger is another major symbol. Of a new dawn in Sansa's life.

Of course each house has its values - but all that's explicitly said is that the Starks are known for enduring and sticking together as a pack. I do agree that Sansa building Winterfell is a big symbol and another example of how Sansa has slowly become more "northern" over the course of the series.

As for Cat Stark, she is the character who got her family into trouble in the first place. Ned didn't want to go to King's Landing. She was the one who persuaded him because she wanted girls to marry well (it's the opposite in the HBO series, but that's how it is in the book). She rushes impulsively into seizing Tyrion, frees Jamie without consulting anyone. These three actions contributed to the downfall of her house immensely. No character apart from Theon Greyjoy maybe is so impulsive and yes, stupid and naive. Her brother Edmure is also shallow, stupid and naive. Her uncle is not, but he is not a regular fish, but a black one. Lyse cannot be more stupid and naive than she is. Plus, she is mad. So, one cannot say there is a lot of wit in the Riverun fish pond.

Catelyn told Ned to agree to become the Hand because if he refused then Robert would be suspicious and think he's plotting against him. I think she's right in that regard.

Sure, Catelyn made impulsive decisions that later had terrible consequences. But I can easily say the same about Ned. Actually, in his case, he's the most naive of all. He went to Cersei and told her his plans without first ensuring that his daughters were safe. He was trusting enough to think that Cersei would agree to his terms and leave King's Landing without a fuss. And I could go on and on: he sent Beric Dondarrion instead of Loras Tyrell to fight Gregor Clegane, he trusted Littlefinger for some idiotic reason, he refused Renly's help ... those can easily be attributed to Ned's naivete and belief that others just as honorable as he is. He is by far one of the most naive characters in the series, and I can't even cut him some slack like I do with Sansa because he's an adult.

And then there's Robb. Despite what CATELYN told him, he sent Theon to talk to Balon Greyjoy. And then he broke his vow to the Freys by marrying Jeyne - and we all know what happened because of that. Those two were idiotic decisions that resulted in the Freys and Boltons turning on him.

I'm not arguing against Robb and Ned, I'm just pointing out that Catelyn is not the only one who made mistakes that later negatively affected her family. I think all of the Starks are naive in some way, but Catelyn is less so compared to the others because she grew up in the South and knew how the game of thrones were. Two things pop to mind that make me think this: her speech at the end of AGOT and when she tries to treat with Renly and Stannis.

Out of all the Tullys, the only one who sticks out to me is Lysa because she betrayed her family. If you said she was not a true Tully, I'd be more inclined to agree with you because she goes against everything her house stands for. Edmure, Catelyn, and even the Blackfish do not. I don't see how being naive is a "value" of House Tully as you say. That's like me saying that brutality and killing is a "value" of House Lannister since all three of Tywin's childrens have done horrible things. Arguing that a character goes against the words of a house is one thing, but confining families to certain traits is another. Characters are more than just their house - they are also a product of their culture and upbringing. Not everyone within a family - both past and present - are exactly the same.

Wait...Sansa can't be a "real" Stark because she's too naive? That makes total sense. Everyone knows "real" Starks are never naive. Ned Stark never went to his enemy to tell her he knew her deadly secret and never expected LF to destroy his career, lose everything and be fine with it because he had a crush on Cat 15 years ago. Robb never lost his most powerful bannermen in the middle of a war because he met a hot girl, not at all. Lyanna didn't run away with a married man at 14. Brandon didn't scream "Go out and die" to the crown prince in the middle of the capital. Jon Snow didn't need Tyrion to tell him that the NW are a bunch of criminals and Noye to teach him what a whiny entitled and privileged emo he was.

:agree: This is perfect.

It's good to know that in your book naive = honourable. I'll keep it mind for a future reference.

They're not synonymous, but assuming that others are as honorable as you are is naive. And there's no explaining the stupidity of what Lyanna (running away with the crowned prince even though he was married) and Brandon (going to King's Landing to confront Rhaegar) did. They were naive enough to think they could do that without consequences.

[Modesty Lannister]

Arguing that a character goes against the words of a house is one thing, but confining families to certain traits is another. Characters are more than just their house - they are also a product of their culture and upbringing. Not everyone within a family - both past and present - are exactly the same.

Going against the words of one's house IS going against one's culture and upbringing. Ned troubles in King's Landing were a product of cultural and upbringing differences rather than naiveté. And, since his dear Cat acted on her own without consulting her husband he could only react. She reduced him to reaction rather than action and that was the beginning of his downfall. Furthermore, if you read my earlier posts you'd know that I never argued that everyone in a noble family should be exactly the same. That would be stupid. But, each member of a noble family is raised to act in accordance with the family values. Sansa abandoned these values during her childish obsession with Cersei and Joff. That moment was symbolised by the death of Lady. I agree that building a snow Winterfell is a step towards her original values. However, it is significant that she couldn't finish the castle without Littlefinger's help and advice. I understand many readers hate Littlefinger. I am not able to hate a fictional character. I try not to let my character preferences hinder my judgement or analysis. I may not always be right, but that's what forums are for - to debate and introduce new arguments into a debate. I don't like to run around in proverbial debate circles.

[myhousigilisthehousecat]

I hope she develops into a strong woman like Jon developed into a strong man, except instead of "Ed, fetch me a block." It's "Harry, open the moon door."

Shortly after:

"I've only loved one man, I promise you."

"Only one? Oh Sansa, do you swear it? Only one?"

"Only Ned"

[Grail King]

Going against the words of one's house IS going against one's culture and upbringing. Ned troubles in King's Landing were a product of cultural and upbringing differences rather than naiveté. And, since his dear Cat acted on her own without consulting her husband he could only react. She reduced him to reaction rather than action and that was the beginning of his downfall. Furthermore, if you read my earlier posts you'd know that I never argued that everyone in a noble family should be exactly the same. That would be stupid. But, each member of a noble family is raised to act in accordance with the family values. Sansa abandoned these values during her childish obsession with Cersei and Joff. That moment was symbolised by the death of Lady. I agree that building a snow Winterfell is a step towards her original values. However, it is significant that she couldn't finish the castle without Littlefinger's help and advice. I understand many readers hate Littlefinger. I am not able to hate a fictional character. I try not to let my character preferences hinder my judgement or analysis. I may not always be right, but that's what forums are for - to debate and introduce new arguments into a debate. I don't like to run around in proverbial debate circles.

I don't think it is, the only thing he helped her with was the bridge / walkway between buildings, I had the same problem when I was 10 or 11 when my dad said use twigs, not an obvious answer for a young person with no architectural skills or knowledge.