[D&E Spoilers] Red or Black?

[the average Other]

Accepting this claim as fact, I stated that in my view it not selfish at all and actually very legitimate to fight for a right to be with one's beloved. That in my eyes such right - to choose one's spouse freely, is part of this vague notion we call "freedom" and therefore one who fights so his beloved won't be taken away from him (unless she wants that herself of course) is actually fights for freedom.

I see this as an issue of priviledges and duties. Daenerys and Daemon were born into the most priviledged family in the whole of Westeros. Everyone else in the whole realm toiled so that they could have their fancy clothes, their jewels, training, education, food, their lives in luxury, etc. etc. Everything they ever got in their heads to want, in fact. The only thing that was asked in return - especially of her - was that they marry for the good of the realm, not for their own pleasure. So in context their rebellious love doesn't look like freedom-fighting to me at all, it looks like two spoiled teenagers with entitlement issues throwing a fit because daddy won't buy them a new Porsche unless they do their homework, how horrible! If they wanted to marry for love like peasants, then they should have started by giving up their priviledges and living like peasants. Somehow I doubt either one wanted to do that. If they wanted to keep their priviledges, it's only fair they should have to keep the duties and responsibilities as well.

Not that I believe for a moment that the Blackfyre Rebellions were about Daemon's love. Everything I've read in the books and the short stories suggests that Daemon was Bittersteel's sock puppet, and the Rebellion was all about the hate between Bittersteel and his half-brother Bloodraven, which in turn arose from the age-old enmity between their mothers' families. All the malcontents who felt they'd been somehow slighted by the Targs or someone who supported the Targs gravitated to the Blackfyre side. It's all so petty.

[7V3N]

I know it's mentioned that Daenerys Martell was roughly Daeron's son Baelor's age and that she and Daemon were in love but where is it mentioned that Daemon was much younger than Daeron?

Daemon was born 170 AL. Daeron II's reign began at 184 AL and he was said to be an older man by the time he succeeded Aegon IV, with grandchildren.

[Elaena Targaryen]

This is a quote from Ran from another thread and he explains things he knows from Martin, I thought it could be relevant to the discussion here.

Daeron was significantly older than Daemon. He had at least two fully grown sons, whereas Daeron's eldest children were boys.

Just remember that Aegon IV the Unworthy is a Targaryen version of Flashman as a king, and the answer becomes plain: whatever Aegon did or said, he did it for the worst possible reasons. Lying, cheating, etc. -- he did it all. He's the worst king in the history of the Targaryen dynasty, in GRRM's opinion.

Also, George's description of Naerys? It makes it so incredibly unlikely that she'd ever do such a thing, it's just funny. The only reason the rumors had traction was because a king was saying it, and because the singers got a hold of it and turned it into the ultimate of chivalric romance, up there with Florin the Fool and Jonquil.

So I think Aegon giving Daemon the sword and legitamizing his bastards was not done with the best intentions. Aegon did these things for the worst possible reasons because that is what Martin says motivates him in general.

[Talleyrand]

Not that I believe for a moment that the Blackfyre Rebellions were about Daemon's love. Everything I've read in the books and the short stories suggests that Daemon was Bittersteel's sock puppet, and the Rebellion was all about the hate between Bittersteel and his half-brother Bloodraven, which in turn arose from the age-old enmity between their mothers' families. All the malcontents who felt they'd been somehow slighted by the Targs or someone who supported the Targs gravitated to the Blackfyre side. It's all so petty.

I think Daemon was more under Fireball's influence than Bittersteel's. Though personally Daemon doesn't sound like the kind of person who you could make into a puppet, more the kind of person who you make a slight suggestion to that he would make a pretty good king and then hope your enemies are the people he kills on his way there. Also I think the Bittersteel/Bloodraven feud arose more from the Seastar issue than the Bracken-Blackwood issue.

[Arland]

The only thing that was asked in return - especially of her - was that they marry for the good of the realm, not for their own pleasure.

Yes, the only thing she was asked was to be raped for her whole entire life (sex with someone you don't want is rape)... the only thing she was asked is to live her entire life in misery without the person she loves. the only thing she was asked was to be a slave to some master someone chooses for her... Sure , she wasn't the only one, but this doesn't make her personal suffering any smaller.

May be I am hopeless romantic but I just cannot understand how people see in something as important and central to person life as love, as a will to be with a chosen partner,something capricious and negligible... We are not talking here about teenage movie kind of "love", which basically is about who you are going to fuck with for next few weeks. We got so used to identify love with this modern short lived sort of infatuation...There is much more to it.... A loss of truly loved person is a horrible thing and it isn't worth all the fucking jewelry and clothes in the world... and thing a person is ready to do to avoid such loss...

I am not saying that there are not people in worth situations in Westeros,there are, but one misery doesn't excuse another. Sure they were entitled, and filthy rich, and very unjustly so but this doesn't mean that they deserve injustice. . A person should not pay with rape and partition with his loved one for life, for class disparity in Westeros. One injustice doesn't justify another.

[Fire Eater]

Yes, the only thing she was asked was to be raped for her whole entire life (sex with someone you don't want is rape)... the only thing she was asked is to live her entire life in misery without the person she loves.

Technically, the consummation of her marriage with the Prince of Dorne wasn't rape since she didn't refuse to sleep with him, and he didn't force her against her will.

I also don't recall it being said anywhere that she was miserable in her marriage, her husband built the Water Gardens just for her.

[Summerqueen]

Realisitically speaking, those were times in which people looked to like and learned to love.

Resignation isn't the same thing as being coerced. We don't know her feelings. She may have been happy enough with the prince. Having children of her own and a man she didn't have to share may have been more than enough for her. He wasn't a monster, particularly grotesque (that we now of), or an enemy. And maybe he had way with words and superior skills in the sack. We don't know.

[Revan Baratheon]

Screw them both ill go with the stag(if only lyonel B had declared for himself :( )

[Arland]

Technically, the consummation of her marriage with the Prince of Dorne wasn't rape since she didn't refuse to sleep with him, and he didn't force her against her will.

I also don't recall it being said anywhere that she was miserable in her marriage, her husband built the Water Gardens just for her.

Your idea of what rape is, seems to me to be wrong. Whether Prince of Drone forced her or not and what exactly she said on her bed is irrelevant. She was forced into this marriage against her will (at least that is the assumption, of course if she and Daemon weren't lovers but she wanted to marry Prince of Dorne all along it is another thing). The moment she is forced into this marriage she was forced to have sex, since that is part of wifely duties (for not doing which she can be punished).

Again, what Prince of Dorne built for her is irrelevant. Tysha, if you remember were paid for being gang raped by a barrack of soldier. I am not saying that Prince of Dorne was a horrible person and may be in the end when she had no choice she found some kind of satisfaction in her marriage to him (like Dany who in the end fell for Drogo)... still it doesn't make her forced marriage less of injustice. There are many cases in our modern life when rape and sexual abuse victims in the end decide to stay with their abusers (I guess part of Stockholm syndrome) ... this doesn't make their initial abuse less of abuse.

Resignation isn't the same thing as being coerced.

Sure it is. resignation is realization that you have not choice - ,meaning you are coerced to do something you don't choose. Of course if Daenaris were indifferent to Daeron that was another thing. But as I understand they were lovers - she was torn away from her lover to be married to somebody else. Just try to imagine this for yourself. I don't know if you have somebody you love or you are married to... just imagine what it is like to have him/her taken away from you forever.

Sure, even after a loss of a loved one people go on, sometimes fall in love again, but it doesn't make the loss of a loved one less horrible thing.

[Summerqueen]

<snip>.

Resignation literally means "unresisting acceptance." That is not what coercion means.

In other words, I can be resigned to scooping kitty litter tomorrow, no one is threatening me or forcing me to do so. I do have the choice to wait until the day after tomorrow, but I'm resigned to do it tomorrow.

You could also chose to sleep with a man because you didn't want to disappoint him, especially if you admired him; because you wanted a child; because you wanted to love him; because you wanted to be a martyr; all sorts of reasons. Loving a man is only one reason to have sex with one.

[Pliskin]

@Arland , I think Daenerys was just a better person than you seem to be, and accepted to sacrifice herself for the good of the realm.

And the Prince of Dorne was quite a romantic guy (Water Gardens... and she enjoyed them). To say it was rape... wow. I never thought I'd read such nonsense.

[Arland]

Resignation literally means "unresisting acceptance." That is not what coercion means

Like for example when your boss lays hands on you, and since you are too afraid that if you will resist your kids will starve you "unresistingly accept" .... Or you father (with all the fatherly authority in medieval society) commands you to go and marry someone you don't want.

Well, you know what? It is a matter of fact really. If Daeneris was asked to marry Prince of Dorne and she said "Fine with me, I don't give a damn about this Daemon character" then it is not rape. But considering Daenaris Daemon were lovers, somehow I don't think it went exactly in this way.

Again it is a question of fact. If Daenaris was ok with it - then you are correct. But if she didn't and was made to marry Prince of Dorne despite her wishes, if by use of fatherly authority or even appliance of psychological pressure (all the good of the realm nonsense) , that is another thing.

[Arland]

Arland , I think Daenerys was just a better person than you seem to be, and accepted to sacrifice herself for the good of the realm.

Ye... I guess unless I an ready to use my vagina (if I had one) for the good of the fatherland, I am a terrible person.

And what being romantic has to do with it? Drogo was also romantic and kind to Dany, but her marriage still was a forced one... Again I am not saying Prince of Dorne was a horrible person , he acted within accepted norms of his society, but what was done to Deanaris and Daemon was an injustice from my (may be modern, though I am not sure) moral point of view, therefore I see Daemons attempt to fight against this injustice as legitimate one.

[Arland]

Sorry to flood this thread, but another thing just came into my mind.

All this talk of Daeneris marriage for "the good of the realm" is false. Dorne presented no danger to Targerian kingdom. The only reason there was war with Dorne it was because of Targerian ambition to enlarge their realm.

So basically Daenarys was asked to sacrifice her love, her happiness, her freedom of choice, for a material ambition of Targerian king, for his desire to have the glory of joining Dorne to his kingdom. I don't see how it is different from a classic patriarchal father selling his daughter for a herd of sheep, and why it is noble and heroic of said daughter to agree to be sold like some kind of commodity in exchange for sheep (or piece of land). IMHO it is stupid self victimization and not heroism (like women in Sudan who condone amputation of clitoris) – thanks god feminist movement opened women eyes on this one.

And lets be honest for a second. Considering geopolitical interests that brought Dorne and Targerian kingdom to agree to joining, was it really impossible to cement this alliance by something else? May be it would have cost Targerian king some more concessions on fishing rights (or whatever), but isn't love and happiness of a person worth it? Bottom line, Daenaris was used like a commodity, like an object in Targerian – Dorne horse trade, and it wasn't ok. If she didn't love Daemon and was ok with being married to somebody else, that is one thing. But if she was torn from the arms of her lover and pushed in marrying somebody she didn't want to only to bring more glory and wealth for her father, that is wrong.

In the end, I thinks this another one of those "our morality vs Westerosi morality issues.

[The Drunkard]

Yes, the only thing she was asked was to be raped for her whole entire life (sex with someone you don't want is rape

It wasn't rape. Get over it. If this was a man we were talking about, you would not be so quick to call it rape. Do you believe Edmure was raped by Roslin Frey? Do you believe Ned was raped by Catelyn Tully? Do you believe Robert was raped by Cersei Lannister? None of those men were kean on a marriage, and none had any reason to love their new wife, but they did it for the good of the realm. That does not mean they were raped.

[Arland]

It wasn't rape. Get over it. If this was a man we were talking about, you would not be so quick to call it rape

Depends. But is should not be forgotten that there is a disparity of power between woman and man in Westerosi marriage. It is one thing to be a husband in such marriage and another to be wife. Roles are different. Man for example can ignore his wife entirely , while wife is obliged to be obedient to her husband and lay with him, whenever he wants.

Btw, if out of fear of Tywin Tyrion were forced to sleep with Sansa, i would certainly see that as a rape. He would not be raped by Sansa of course, but that would be rape nonetheless.

In your example Edmure in the end actually liked Roslin or at least was ok with being with her. But if he didn't and still was forced to go with marriage and bed her - yes I would probably consider him to be raped.

I guess I put my line , on the issue if a person is indifferent to a wedding and bedding, or he/she is against it (for example because he /she has another lover and wants to be with him)

[Ramsay Gimp]

^trolololol, every single noble in Westeros is a victim of rape!!

Talk about cheapening the word

[The GRRumbler]

snip

Well, since you chose to ignore every single argument in this thread let me make you a question, from where do you assume that Daenerys loved Daemon?

Martin himself said that that this was nothing but a rumor, spread with the intention light up the cause against Daeron in the first place, remind yourself that by the time of the rebelion, Daemon had seven sons already.

[Arland]

Well, since you chose to ignore every single argument in this thread let me make you a question, from where do you assume that Daenerys loved Daemon?

First, let me note that such sort of attitude is not very helpful . I think there is quite interesting argument going in this thread, and I certainly respect all the opinions presented in it. They made me think and evaluate my opinion, for sure. Frankly at the start of this thread I was favoring Daeron (because I like Bloodraven) and was actually convinced to change my mind, once some poster reminded the Daenarys issue, as one of the reasons for the rebellion,

With regard to your specific argument I think if you will check my posts you will see that I repeat and repeat again that I argue on premise that Daemon and Daenerys were lovers. If not, there is nothing to talk about.

If you want a quote see please my post #152: "If Daeneris was asked to marry Prince of Dorne and she said "Fine with me, I don't give a damn about this Daemon character" then it is not rape"

every single noble in Westeros is a victim of rape!!

please see my words in post #156: "I guess I put my line , on the issue if a person is indifferent to a wedding and bedding, or he/she is against it (for example because e

I think most of nobles married in arranged marriages were either indifferent to be married or eager to be married for all kinds of cultural or material reasons. For example Sansa was actually eager to marry Jeofry , and Cersei also wasn't against marrying Robert, Lysa on other hand was certainly married against her will, while she loved LF - so yes i would say she was a victim of rape.

[Fire Eater]

Sorry to flood this thread, but another thing just came into my mind.

All this talk of Daeneris marriage for "the good of the realm" is false. Dorne presented no danger to Targerian kingdom. The only reason there was war with Dorne it was because of Targerian ambition to enlarge their realm.

Actually, the Dornish engaged in border wars with the Reach and the Stormlands. The Blackmonts in Dorne raided their neighbors in the Targaryen realm. The people near the borders seemed to have benefited.