Emilydayne Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 Catelyn never had a good reason to hate Jon. She could not put a face on the woman she thought "seduced" her husband into cheating with her so she takes it out on Jon. In these situations as is the same in any infidelity, the Baby is innocent of any crime.Ned didn't cheat. Jon was conceived before he married Catelyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Tyene Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 I don't see how Catelyn's general mistrust of both Jon and Theon could have led Blackfish to think Jon was just as bad as Theon, when they believe Theon actually MURDERED Bran and Rickon. Besides actually killing Robb, Arya, Sansa, or Catelyn herself, I don't see what he could possibly think Jon did that would make him as bad as Theon. Either Blackfish thinks that Jon did something as bad, along the lines of being a turncloak (i.e. he knows about the paper shield or allegiance with Stannis) or he is flat out lying to Jaime. I think Ser Brynden would have heard a lot of positives about Jon from Robb -- especially after Robb named him his heir.Maybe, and this is probably completely crackpot, but maybe, Blackfish is hoping to take pregnant Jeyne, who he swore to Robb he'd protect, up to the wall to keep Jeyne safe and inform him that Robb named him heir (although, obviously Jon is obligated to the wall), and he just just wanted to throw the kingslayer off the scent? And, yes, I realize this is tying a lot of random theories together; feel free to ignore this suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 Ned didn't cheat. Jon was conceived before he married Catelyn.He married Catelyn before going south, so... no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 He maybe just took Catelyn's word for it that Jon is not to be trusted, he should shut up about Jon. The Blackfish does not know anything about Jon except that he is brother to the King in the North, he should have kept Jon's name out of his mouth. It bugged me cause everything he heard about Jon was from Cat's mouth and she is not exactly a rational person when talking about Jon Snow. That was a WTF!!!! moment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Unburnt Hound Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 You think being the outcast and black sheep of the family himself he wouldn't judge Jon so bad. Then again it is brought up in a tense situation and it is his niece telling him stuff about Jon. Of course he's going to believe what his family says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Unburnt Hound Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 You think with being the outcast/black sheep of his family he would understand Jons position. Then again it is his niece telling him stuff about Jon so of course he is going to believe family. On top of that he probably finds it odd Jaime would bring it up so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Unburnt Hound Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 You think with being the outcast/black sheep of his family he would understand Jons position. Then again it is his niece telling him stuff about Jon so of course he is going to believe family. On top of that he probably finds it odd Jaime would bring it up so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Unburnt Hound Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 Sorry about my multiple reposts of the same thing people. My internet is slow as heck and I thought it wasn't posting my comments. So a thousand pardons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danelle Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 I think that Brynden's opinion on Jon is similar to people's opinion on Tyrion, Jaime and Sandor.When Cat finds out about Sansa's wedding to Tyrion she thinks that she will give birth to the dwarf's vile children and she is disgusted. Only the reader knows that Tyrion has not make love to Sansa, respects her and protected her from Joffrey. To everyone else Sandor is the disfigured, younger version of Gregor. They call his brother Ser and him the Hound. Yet Sandor never beat Sansa, saved her from being gangraped and kissed her goodbye during the battle. Jaime killed Aerys because the latter planned to deliver to Robert ashes instead of a city. This doesn't change the fact that Tyrion is a whoremonger, Sandor is cruel and killed Mycah and Jaime pushed Bran and did a lot of awful things. But there are two sides that few people can see. Brynden dislikes Jon because Cat saw him as a threat. With the rest of her children dead and Sansa married to a Lannister, Jon could claim Winterfell. He is also a bastard and they don't have a good reputation. Most of them are not trustworthy and dangerous to the trueborn children of the family, think of Ramsay Snow and Falia Flowers. Blackfish believes that Jon Snow is no different to Theon because this is what most people think. I like to believe that if they ever met, he would change his mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneak Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 So the only info Blackfish has on Jon is Catelyn's opinion of him, Robb's opinion of him, and whatever second or third hand info might have trickled down about the Night's Watch naming Jon the new LC. Catelyn's opinion is probably going to carry the most weight, since Blackfish has known and loved her much longer and, unfortunately, Robb's reputation as a judge of character is currently in the shitter as he has been proven, ah, dead wrong about Theon Greyjoy, Roose Bolton, and Walder Frey, so Blackfish probably figures, or at least figured at one point, Jon sucks too, especially since Catelyn was so down on him.I think this is probably a factor. He may not have had a strong opinion of Jon until Jaime (the enemy) mentioned him. After that maybe all the bad things Cat had said about him (if she talked about him at all) came to mind, as well as the general distrust of bastards people have in this society, and he thought the worst of Jon.What I don't understand is why Robb would consider Jon heir at all. He knows Jon is a sworn brother of the Nights Watch, that he took an oath to hold no lands or titles. Only death can release him of these vows right? Maybe Robb named someone else heir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Africanus Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 What I don't understand is why Robb would consider Jon heir at all. He knows Jon is a sworn brother of the Nights Watch, that he took an oath to hold no lands or titles. Only death can release him of these vows right? Maybe Robb named someone else heir.While no one really knows who Robb named heir and we might not even find out in WoW (I hope so though) but it really isn't such a leap of faith to why Robb named Jon heir.1) He himself didn't stake too much value in the NW oath. No 'worldly' rulers did. At the time of ASOFAI the Wall was seen as mainly a dumping ground for criminals and nobles with too many sons (who couldn't inherit/marry into lands). He was willing to buy of Jon's vow.2) He had little other options. Sansa was married to a Lannister at the time. The people he was waging a splendid little war with. I have a very hard time to believe he'd name her heir. To him, Rickon and Bran were murdered. Arya was missing, and judging from the texts he may have considered her dead. Catelyn named some dude in the Vale who was like a cousin of the Starks or something. Yeah that would work, as if the Greatjon would follow someone who probably never even in the North, distantly related to the Starks.Jon was recognized by Eddard as his bastard, and the nobility knew Jon was a product of Eddard's loins, aka he was the only full blood Stark through the male line left.Conclusion: unless he did not beget a son with Jeyne I really don't see why Robb wouldn't name Jon considering his options and what he knew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecretNegative Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 I think the only version of Jon he got was the Catelyn-version, which is certainly not the most unbiased view you can get.Simpl,e Catelyn disliked Jon, Blackfish trusts Catelyn's judgement, therefor Blckfish has a certain suspicion about Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harle The Handsome Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 Its as simple as most people think bastards are shady people not to be trusted. And the Blackfish thinks the Lannisters made Jon the Lord CommanderLike apple said the Blackfish just has a inherent distrust of Jon.Wasn't the Blackfish a bastard as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneak Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 While no one really knows who Robb named heir and we might not even find out in WoW (I hope so though) but it really isn't such a leap of faith to why Robb named Jon heir.1) He himself didn't stake too much value in the NW oath. No 'worldly' rulers did. At the time of ASOFAI the Wall was seen as mainly a dumping ground for criminals and nobles with too many sons (who couldn't inherit/marry into lands). He was willing to buy of Jon's vow.2) He had little other options. Sansa was married to a Lannister at the time. The people he was waging a splendid little war with. I have a very hard time to believe he'd name her heir. To him, Rickon and Bran were murdered. Arya was missing, and judging from the texts he may have considered her dead. Catelyn named some dude in the Vale who was like a cousin of the Starks or something. Yeah that would work, as if the Greatjon would follow someone who probably never even in the North, distantly related to the Starks.Jon was recognized by Eddard as his bastard, and the nobility knew Jon was a product of Eddard's loins, aka he was the only full blood Stark through the male line left.Conclusion: unless he did not beget a son with Jeyne I really don't see why Robb wouldn't name Jon considering his options and what he knew.Your points are good ones and I know that Robb had very few options when it came to choosing an heir. But both Robb and Jon were honourable (to a fault) and I don't see a way past the oath.Wasn't the Blackfish a bastard as well?Not that I'm aware of. It says he is Lord Hosters brother and they fought a lot about marriage, but I don't think it ever says he is a bastard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buried Treasure Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 He maybe just took Catelyn's word for it that Jon is not to be trusted, he should shut up about Jon. The Blackfish does not know anything about Jon except that he is brother to the King in the North, he should have kept Jon's name out of his mouth. It bugged me cause everything he heard about Jon was from Cat's mouth and she is not exactly a rational person when talking about Jon Snow. That was a WTF!!!! moment Again, though, it's Jaime that brings Jon up in conversation. The Blackfish doesn't need any greater reason to be negative about Jon than Jaime bringing him up as a positive thing. Sure, Brynden knew Catelyn's thoughts on the subject, but it needn't be that he had taken her mistrust to heart in order for him to use it to rebuff Jaime's suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 What I don't understand is why Robb would consider Jon heir at all. He knows Jon is a sworn brother of the Nights Watch, that he took an oath to hold no lands or titles. Only death can release him of these vows right? Maybe Robb named someone else heir. It's Robb, he was an idiot politically and naturally chose the dumbest option, as usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcb Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 It's Robb, he was an idiot politically and naturally chose the dumbest option, as usual.Yup. Just like his fellow political morons, Stannis and Tywin. The former wanted to release Jon Snow from his oath to succeed Robb, the latter intended to make Jaime his successor, even though KG knights similarly serve for life and hold no lands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quentyn Baratheon Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 Because Jon had smex with a redhead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvengerofWinterfell Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 Assuming that Blackfish legitimately dislikes Jon (after all it could be a misdirect) I would assume that its mostly because Catelyn dislikes him. If I recall correctly, Cat hadnt seen her sister since coming to Winterfell (at the least its been quite a few years) which implies that Cat never came to the Vale & Lysa certainly never came to Winterfell. Blackfish doesnt seem likely to leave the Vale often either as he is Knight of the Gate, & as Cats never been to the Vale, his interaction with the children of Winterfell would have been limited at best. So any opinion of them is likely based solely on correspondence with Cat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecretNegative Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 Yup. Just like his fellow political morons, Stannis and Tywin. The former wanted to release Jon Snow from his oath to succeed Robb, the latter intended to make Jaime his successor, even though KG knights similarly serve for life and hold no lands.Well, technically Barristan has already been fired, which meant KG no longer served for life, which meant Jaime could be the heir to Casterly Rock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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