5 Year Gap in HBO Series

[boojam]

As I've said, the reason Martin didn't do this is because it's flat out stupid. Seeing character development will always be better than simply hearing about it, regardless of whether it is a book or a series. A five year gap creates such a great discrepancy between characters you once knew that it becomes almost offensive y to know that there are stories you could have been there for! It's ridiculous to conceive of it as working simply because it was once an idea that someone had.

But visual media is different than the prose we know. The child actors are going to age and change even as this show goes into it's third season, not to mention the fourth and fifth, and maybe more ... fingers crossed.

They could hire different young actors, but I think the audience would hate that.

Let the story have a natural unfolding over the course of 5 years , let everybody age, don't change the story, let the screen writers smooth the flow.

This should could, maybe, go for 7 or 8 more years! Then what?

[Hyper]

Regarding flashbacks

Apparently Eddard will appear in Season 2 in flashback form. Maybe in the House of the Undying we'll get a ToJ flashback or something.

Don't get your hopes up.

[Hyper]

They could hire different young actors, but I think the audience would hate that

Why should they? They already started the characters 3 years older than the books. It won't impact the story line, if anything it will make it more believable for a television audience.

- Sansa: Already through her growth spurt, won't get much taller. (But they should probably move up Sansa's 1st period to make it more believable)

- Arya: No problem, she'll only have to pretend being a boy for part of this coming season. Will also make the 'assassin' plot in season 4/5 more believable.

- Bran: Perhaps Hodor won't carry him so much, but they can use a cart or horse, but that won't affect the plot.

- Rickon: No problem

[The hairy bear]

As I've said, the reason Martin didn't do this is because it's flat out stupid. Seeing character development will always be better than simply hearing about it, regardless of whether it is a book or a series. A five year gap creates such a great discrepancy between characters you once knew that it becomes almost offensive y to know that there are stories you could have been there for! It's ridiculous to conceive of it as working simply because it was once an idea that someone had.

I'm wouldn't like to hijack the thread, but I don't agree with you at all. When George explained why he threw away the 5 year gap he never mentioned character developement, but only plot isues (some storylines could not stay on hiatus for five years, and flashbacks didn't work).

The basics for the main character developements were already outlined at the end of ASOS. I don't see how could be considerd a discrepancy if after five years we had begun with Arya as a trained killer, Sansa an innocent-faced plotter, or Sam a maester training at Oldtown.

Jumping ahead in time to skip parts of the story where little happens is a plot device that is used in many works, and it can work very well. I for one would have hoped for the 5 year gap to work (for the books).

[waaimasjien]

Regarding flashbacks

Apparently Eddard will appear in Season 2 in flashback form. Maybe in the House of the Undying we'll get a ToJ flashback or something.

Source?

I do remember a scene with Ned that was in a season one trailer for a few frames, but seemed to be the only deleted scene in the whole season. While Benioff said there were no deleted scenes at all.

[GoodGuyA]

Let the story have a natural unfolding over the course of 5 years , let everybody age, don't change the story, let the screen writers smooth the flow.

What I mean is, no skipping time. I see no issue with them going as the books have progressed because the people working on this show are smart. You may think that "audiences will never watch this" or "it moves too slow", but you're not the ones who have to think about it all day and night. Do not doubt them when you have no idea how long they've been working at it. I was fine with moving up the ages, and there is absolutely no reason, in my eyes, why it should effect the story as told in the books thus far.

The basics for the main character developements were already outlined at the end of ASOS. I don't see how could be considerd a discrepancy if after five years we had begun with Arya as a trained killer, Sansa an innocent-faced plotter, or Sam a maester training at Oldtown.

Because that's not interesting. You come back to these characters and you wonder how they got there, and bombarding us with flashbacks/exposition for every single character (which you NEEEEEED to do to keep things consistent) will drag the entire show down leagues more than directly adapting the books. I guarantee you that.

[boojam]

I'm wouldn't like to hijack the thread, but I don't agree with you at all. When George explained why he threw away the 5 year gap he never mentioned character developement, but only plot isues (some storylines could not stay on hiatus for five years, and flashbacks didn't work).

The basics for the main character developements were already outlined at the end of ASOS. I don't see how could be considerd a discrepancy if after five years we had begun with Arya as a trained killer, Sansa an innocent-faced plotter, or Sam a maester training at Oldtown.

Jumping ahead in time to skip parts of the story where little happens is a plot device that is used in many works, and it can work very well. I for one would have hoped for the 5 year gap to work (for the books).

I don't see why the teleplays can't tell exactly (I mean exactly) the same story, yet spread the timeline to match the 'real time' aging of the 'child' actors.

Maisie Williams will turn 15 before the filming of the 3rd season.

17 by the start of filming of the 5 season, and lord nearly 20 by season 7!

If some of the vague rumors are true , and it may not happen, CoK and SoS may become a three season deal, she will be 18 as she gets to Braavos, I don't care how short she is, she is going to start look like a young woman.

I say let her, I can't see how it does violence to the narrative if one keeps the same story.

To me the change in Sansa's age has not bothered me one wit.

George was using an analog of the middle ages for a template, the show has had to break that for legal and labor law reasons.

We have already been told story narratives are being moved around to get a better narrative flow for the visual medium, considering that the stories in CoK, SoS, AFfC and ADwD all sort of run in parallel I think it's something that's got to be done.

[The hairy bear]

Bojaam,

I think you misunderstood my post, and I agree with everything you say. IMHO, the tv series should not skip time and progess at the same rate as the actors grow up: one year per season. My comment was only trying to refute the opinion that the five year gap would have been a "terrible idea" in the books.

Because that's not interesting. You come back to these characters and you wonder how they got there, and bombarding us with flashbacks/exposition for every single character (which you NEEEEEED to do to keep things consistent) will drag the entire show down leagues more than directly adapting the books. I guarantee you that.

What's interesting and what's not is an opinion, so perhaps we'll just agree to disagree. And I don't see why you believe that flashbacks are needed to keep things consistent. There was a point were George believed any too important event happened during those five years, so why would you need any flashback at all?

As a reader, for instance, I would have prefered to meet Arya five years later already a faceless men, with only obscure recollections of his training. I don't need to read about it to know that it has been harsh, painful and that has taken yet another toll on Arya's sanity. The character developement would be self explanatory.

What I don't find (much) interesting is reading about this training. And even being George as good a writer as he is, the training will always come as too short (you'd need years to learn the required abilities and internalize a philosophy), and too obscure (because describing in the words of a little girl how she is teached to change her face at will is not easy to do)

[BlackTalon]

If they ever get to Feast and Dance they'll probably combine it into one season and scrape a bunch of the boring subplots and streamline the main plots.

Had Feast and Dance been combined into one book while cutting out a lot of the useless travelogues that clog up its literary arteries, it'd have been a pretty awesome book. There is a lot of awesome stuff that happens in those two books, it's just drowned in pages and pages of boring descriptions, dead-ended subplots and travelling, lots and lots of travelling.

I like those pages and pages. It´s nice to be ale to learn something about cultures in Essos without having to worry about missing two plot twists and three intrigues every other page.

Besides we like the books for being realistic, and "boring" stretches are realistic. I bet your own life isn´t one nonstop action packed thrill ride with a laugh track either.

I am a firm believer in taking the sweet along with the sour, any book that is exactly how you like it would soon be boring.

[Aegnor]

I think the series could lay out as follows:

2011 - S1 - aGoT

2012 - S2 - aCoK

2013 - S3 - aSoS part a

2014 - S4 - aSoS part b

2015 - S5 - aFFC/aDWD (first half)

2016 - S6 - aFFC/aDWD (second half)

2017 - S7 - tWoW

2018 - S8 - aDoS

I think season 5 and 6 will cover both books, but it will be done chronologically, rather than geographically as it is in the books.

Where it gets touchey is in season 7/8. Currently GRRM says he's written 200 pages out of 1300 for tWoW, and that he should be finished with it in 2 to 3 years. I hope that turns out to be accurate, but I'm not holding my breath. If it is accurate, then he will finish aWoW sometime between season 4 and season 5. I don't think there is too much doubt that he will finish aWoW in time for season 7 (he would probably need to finish it by April of 2016 in order for it to be adapted and Benioff and Weiss would likely have access to early drafts).

But the problem comes in with season 8. Best case scenario, he finishes tWoW two years from now (April 2014), and then takes 2.5 years again to finish aDoS. That would be perfect timing and the book would be ready for adaptation right around the time they are shooting season 7. However, I would be surprised if that sunny-day scenario occured. I think an additional 3 years is the minimum for tWoW and aDoS will be at least another 3 years on top of that. That means aDoS would be finished around the time that season 8 should be airing.

That obviously won't work, and that is even assuming that GRRM isn't underestimating the time-to-completion (which...has happened before). So really, what I'm hoping for, is that he finishes the last book by 2nd quarter of 2018, and season 8 is only delayed a year. I'm thinking they should begin to edge out the series and air season 3 in June, season 4 in September, season 5 in January, season 6 in March, and season 7 in April. That will give us the year delay without having a 2 year hole between season 7 and season 8. Some seasons could also be split into part a and part b, so air part a in April, and part b in January.. BSG did something like that for season 2.

[Werthead]

I think the series could lay out as follows:

Nope. If HBO overtakes GRRM, they overtake GRRM and we will see the ending of ASoIaF on screen earlier - potentially many years earlier if the books go to eight or more volumes - than we will see it in a novel. HBO are not going to be delaying the series (at a cost of millions of dollars in lost revenue and risking losing actors to other projects) so GRRM gets the books out first.

[Dragonfish]

I think everyone more or less.agrees that the first 3 books are more fast paced in terms of the plot and more 'intersting'.However these last 2 books were intended by martin as interim novels in order to cover the storyline of the '5 year gap'.Originally he wanted to tell these last two books in the form of flash backs and skip directly to the current TWOW plot.but couldnt manage it.

Actually, I seem to recall that most of Jon and Dany's storylines in ADWD were intended to be told after the five-year gap, so skipping straight to TWOW in the show would be a very bad idea.

[boojam]

Actually, I seem to recall that most of Jon and Dany's storylines in ADWD were intended to be told after the five-year gap, so skipping straight to TWOW in the show would be a very bad idea.

Then why did I see this today?(Questions and Answers with David Benioff and Dan Weiss)

Q: If GAME OF THRONES continues with additional seasons, will you adapt one book per season, or try something different? Do you have an entire series arc in mind?

“DBW: Well… “A Storm of Swords” is too long to fit in a single season. And as readers know, “A Feast for Crows” and “A Dance with Dragons” take place during roughly the same time frame, so we’ll have to fold those together. The plan, if we’re lucky enough to be given the opportunity to see it through, is to use as many seasons as we need to tell the story as a whole, to do justice to George’s entire opus.

DB: We’re not looking at our series as a book-by-book adaptation so much as an adaptation of George’s entire saga. In other words, in our minds season two is not “A Clash of Kings.” It is the second season of our adaptation of “A Song of Ice and Fire.”

[Dragonfish]

Then why did I see this today?

Well, first you're going to have to explain to me how that quote contradicts anything I said.

[master]

If they had the budget I guess they could try and prolong the later seasons. Make feast and dance take three or four seasons instead of two. it would sto them from catching up. the only problem is that they either a. take boring parts from the books and lose a bit of the fanbase or b. create new stuff.

[The hairy bear]

Master,

Why would they do that? I think HBO would be happy to be able to finish the tv stories before the books, since it would be profitable in terms of marketing. And a season full of filler would only lose viewers.

It's as Werthead says: if the tv series go beyond the books, they'll do it and that's the end of sthe story.

[boojam]

Well, first you're going to have to explain to me how that quote contradicts anything I said.

Seemed like you were saying that Jon and Dany's stories in SoS were not parallel to the events in FoC and ADwD.

[Dragonfish]

Seemed like you were saying that Jon and Dany's stories in SoS were not parallel to the events in FoC and ADwD.

I'm assuming you mean "ADWD" in the bolded part. What I said was that Jon and Dany's storylines from ADWD were originally going to take place after the 5-year gap, back when the gap was still part of George's plans. However, IIRC, part of the problem George had with the gap--other than what has already been mentioned--was that Jon and Dany's storylines just seemed "ready to go" (i.e. they didn't really need a gap). So when he scrapped the gap, he started Jon and Dany's storyline where he intended to start them after the gap, making them parallel with other events from the gap itself. As you can imagine, this created numerous complications, which greatly contributed to his difficulties with writing ADWD.

[Ser Amoc]

As a reader, for instance, I would have prefered to meet Arya five years later already a faceless men, with only obscure recollections of his training. I don't need to read about it to know that it has been harsh, painful and that has taken yet another toll on Arya's sanity. The character developement would be self explanatory.

Skipping ahead five years wouldn't be character development at all. And just assuming character development as the reader is giving a free pass to the writer in my opinion. Also, skipping ahead basically means you're telling an entirely new story with a character you don't really recognize anymore.

Personally, I'm happy we're with these characters every step of the way. It is as much about the journey as it is about the end result. I won't care about the end result as much if I don't care about the characters. The journey reveals who these characters are through what happens to them and how they react to it.

Skipping ahead to help your hang up with the aging of the child actors isn't really a valid point either. A lot of people have already given good reasons for this, but here's another: it's "movie magic". Aside from the suspension of belief required to enjoy film, these guys are certainly equipped through simple make up and effects to keep these characters looking appropriate for whatever point they're at in the story.

It seems to me that you're really just not into most of the story lines (especially Arya's) in the last couple books so you're hoping they'll just skip it in the TV series.

My biggest fear is that if this show runs too long and starts losing steam, that HBO just decides to cut its losses and cancel the show. Hopefully, the following keeps growing and that won't happen.

[boojam]

I'm assuming you mean "ADWD" in the bolded part. What I said was that Jon and Dany's storylines from ADWD were originally going to take place after the 5-year gap, back when the gap was still part of George's plans. However, IIRC, part of the problem George had with the gap--other than what has already been mentioned--was that Jon and Dany's storylines just seemed "ready to go" (i.e. they didn't really need a gap). So when he scrapped the gap, he started Jon and Dany's storyline where he intended to start them after the gap, making them parallel with other events from the gap itself. As you can imagine, this created numerous complications, which greatly contributed to his difficulties with writing ADWD.

Ok.

Well as has been noted the HBO series , if it goes even two more seasons beyond this one is going to have problems with the age of the child actors, in particular Arya. But the teleplays need not be time bound to the novels same story can be told while the actors age, the passage of time could be implicit, would not bother me.