From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa IV

[brashcandy]

This is an interesting idea. She is at her most depressed in the eyes or others, but we know she is just bidding her time until her escape. How long has she been married to Tyrion at this point? A month, maybe two at the most and despite everything she has suffered, she is now isolated, and although completely alone in terms of support, she has to cope with, losing her own private space in terms of a bed to herself or even a room of her own. She can't even cry when she wishes to but has to save her grief until she can put a physical barrier between her and her unwanted husband.

Indeed the Godswood (and her meetings with Ser Dontos) are the last hope she has. Tyrion's offer to go with her to the Godswood, would have robbed her of that last sanctuary.

Yes, and in the upcoming Sansa IV, she keeps thinking to herself, "what does he want me to say?" Saying anything at that point would be moot, futile and impossible. It's like a prisoner spending all day talking to their guard. Why bother? The guard knows what the prisoner wants, but refuses to grant it. And it must be noted that during this period Sansa may be depressed, but she isn't focused on her own misery as she is on escaping. She's always risen above her own problems to reach out to others, publicly (in reassuring the women during the Blackwater battle) and privately (in showing compassion to the Hound).

[Avicella]

From Rapsie:

Indeed the Godswood (and her meetings with Ser Dontos) are the last hope she has. Tyrion's offer to go with her to the Godswood, would have robbed her of that last sanctuary.

I like that choice of word very much. The godswood is indeed a sanctuary for Sansa - a place untainted by the Lannisters, a little piece of home in the middle of a hostile land, a place to remember happy childhood days and most importantly, it has become the place from which she will be able to go home.

[Cerys]

But 96% of the people here want sansa and the hound to end up together...

No, around 96% people who want discuss about Sansa want her and Sandor together. Also, almost the same people hates her. Of course, not all.

[brashcandy]

Not only is she voiceless as a woman and therefore unlikely to have ever been rude but the Stark approach to power is different: the Lannisters have a sense of entitlement, so that Tyrion, Cersei, Jaime, Tywin feel they have a right to treat other people shabbily (Tyrion's rudeness, Cersei's flouting of basic sexual mores, Jaime's same crime, Tywin's complete personality).

Where as I couldn't imagine Eddard, Robb or Jon ever being as rude as Tyrion, because the Starks know that whilst their family line is divine (the Starks as Lysa Tully says, are a proud house) such a position of authority and respect means that the Starks actually have act better, be more moral etc and therefore set a good example.

Rather than wielding immense hereditary power and acting like a monsters if they are offended in the slightest way.

This is a great point. It comes back to when Sansa vowed that if she became a Queen she would rule through love, and not fear. People respect and love the Starks, but are wary of and fear the Lannisters

[voodooqueen126]

This is a great point. It comes back to when Sansa vowed that if she became a Queen she would rule through love, and not fear. People respect and love the Starks, but are wary of and fear the Lannisters

Failure to learn this lesson can be seen in the real world:

British Royal Family: Still with us

Dutch Royal Family: still with us

Danish Royal Family: still with us

Norwegian Royal Family: still with us

French Royal Family: beheaded

Russian Royal Family: shot, though the Czar thought of himself as a Little Father to his people, Czarist Russia seems to have been a bit Inquisitiony, and the pogroms and the absolute poverty in which Russians lived...

German Royal family: exiled

Austro-Hungarian Royal family: exiled (worth noting that WW1 erupted over the assassination of Franz Ferdinand by a Bosnian teenager with TB, the Austrians and the Germans had a Tywin like reaction and started a war that in the end would lead to their own exile/the destruction of their countries)

Their are royal families and their are royal families.

[1234567]

@ Voodoo Queen

It's worth noting the English Civil War did away with one hated monarch, but when his son eventually was invited back, Charles the II made a point of being a popular king. In fact he is still one of the most popular and well liked. Contrast that with Richard III or Bloody Mary.

Evidence would suggest it is better to be loved than feared.

[brashcandy]

Btw, Rapsie, I love your new avatar. It's like you're beating posters over the head with that pan :lol:

[childofsummer]

Btw, Rapsie, I love your new avatar. It's like you're beating posters over the head with that pan :lol:

Me too, me too! Sansa needs to get herself one of those. :)

[Villemo]

But 96% of the people here want sansa and the hound to end up together...

96 %? Really, so much?

I like Sansa very much, I love the Hound, but I'm not sure that happy end (and they lived together happily ever after) is the best thing for them. Sansa has a very interesting personality and I know that she will be one of the major players. She needs a time, it's all ;)

[Wouter]

And despite Tyrion dismissing her excessive piety and faith, he's still very wary of it, and is constantly wondering what she's praying about.

Tyrion's reaction seems normal to me, considering he is atheist and Sansa is religious and seems, from his POV, excessively religious. I see no reason here to think that Tyrion is worried Sansa's prayers might literally be answered by the Gods, but his wife being hyper-religious (or so it seems at least, he doesn't know what Sansa is really doing in the God's wood and people turning to religion in times of strife and despair is nothing unusual either) with he himself a rather outspoken atheist is another bad combination on top of all the rest.

Tyrion suspects Sansa is praying for his death, to the old Gods and the new. That's not the case, but Tyrion doesn't know that and I think such a thought would give anyone pause - even without any fear for the Gods whatsoever.

I see nothing in that quote to infer that Tyrion was thinking he was backing the wrong horse. He mentions that everything has been destroyed for the Starks, and thinks that winter had come for them with a vengeance. He knows he should feel happy, because everything is going the Lannisters' way, but still experiences that strange chill.

A matter of interpretation? Tyrion should feel happy, yes, but he doesn't. Why does he feel cold? He doesn't have any prophetic powers AFAIK, going by the evidence in the books so far. He does not know nor suspect the fall of the Lannisters (by his own hand, no less) is imminent. Nevertheless, he is not enjoying the "high summer" of house Lannister while it lasts; and I think Sansa (and the Red Wedding itself, to a lesser extent) is definitely part of that.

Where does he ever show any emotion? Yes, he's disgusted by the treatment of the bodies, and doesn't see why Cat had to die, but otherwise he's much more interested in how it came about. Again, here are his words and thoughts directly following the news:

Tyrion doesn't exactly show his emotions openly to Tywin here, but that doesn't have to mean there are none. Besides his thoughts on the mutilated bodies and the "savage mockery" of Catelyn's "funeral", there are those 2:

First Greyjoy and now Stark. Tyrion thought of his child wife, praying in the godswood even now. Praying to her father’s gods to bring her brother victory and keep her mother safe,no doubt.

Tyrion considers Sansa's feelings for once, a nice change from the wedding and just before the wedding. IMO the line does indicate that Tyrion is bothered by it; otherwise he wouldn't spare the thought for her.

She had lost her home, her place in the world, and everyone she had ever loved or trusted. Winter is coming, warned the Stark words, and truly it had come for them with a vengeance. But it is high summer for House Lannister. So why am I so cold.

Well, Tyrion is cold in "high summer". I mention this again because Tyrion's "cold" is an emotion IMO - he's not in the general jubilant Lannister mood. Again he considers Sansa's position, that's twice in a couple of pages.

Would that he would have done so before the damn wedding, too!

It's very likely that there was cheering for Robb's death and the Stark's utter defeat, in the Red Keep (swarming with Lannister and Tyrell soldiers) if not in the city itself (which was rather enthusiastic about Ned's death, and already not well disposed toward Sansa personally either). It must have been hard to be there alone in a sea of enemies cheering for the deaths of your entire family; I think Sansa must hate King's Landing, the sept and the Red Keep especially.

“Sire,” Ser Kevan said, in a shocked voice, “the lady is now your aunt by marriage.”

Anybody else feels Kevan is quite hypocritical here? Kevan has not only been helping Tywin to plot the Red Wedding, he was also directly involved in arranging the Sansa-Tyrion marriage and helped Tywin to convince Tyrion to go along with it. One wonders if he, together with Tywin, isn't already planning an "accident" for Sansa once she births a heir for the Lannisters' purpose of taking Winterfell. And Sansa being Joffrey's aunt by marriage is entirely meaningless, she is Lannister property and Joffrey knows that.

[Wouter]

I have read in another thread a crackpot theory about Tywin being to one who planned Joffey’s murder. I don’t believe it since we really have no proofs at all going this way, but I do like the idea. I’m not sure Tywin would kill a family member though.

Tywin did not kill Joffrey - I think the books made it clear who was behind that. However, he did condemn Tyrion to die (on fabricated proof that I doubt Tywin really believed) and according to Jaime, the execution was scheduled to go ahead the morning after he himself released Tyrion.

So, Tywin does seem capable of killing a family member.

[Wouter]

In this respect, the Seven do have a lot of value, since the religion has moral teachings and guidelines.

Which is pretty important for a society to function.

That is fine for people like septon Meribald, who are an example to follow, but look at the High Septons and you see either corrupt hypocrites or the present High Septon, whose moral teachings and guidelines include some pretty radical thoughts on the purity of virgins and women's chastity, as Margaery and Cersei have felt. I doubt many participating in this thread are particularly enthusiastic about this kind of moral teachings and guidelines.

Same goes for the religion of the Red God.

[brashcandy]

Tyrion's reaction seems normal to me, considering he is atheist and Sansa is religious and seems, from his POV, excessively religious. I see no reason here to think that Tyrion is worried Sansa's prayers might literally be answered by the Gods, but his wife being hyper-religious (or so it seems at least, he doesn't know what Sansa is really doing in the God's wood and people turning to religion in times of strife and despair is nothing unusual either) with he himself a rather outspoken atheist is another bad combination on top of all the rest.

Tyrion suspects Sansa is praying for his death, to the old Gods and the new. That's not the case, but Tyrion doesn't know that and I think such a thought would give anyone pause - even without any fear for the Gods whatsoever.

You're contradicting yourself here, Wouter :) First you claim that Tyrion as an atheist has no reason to be worried about Sansa's prayers being answered, then you claim that it's normal for him to be worried that she's praying for his death. My contention is that Tyrion may profess not to have any faith in the gods, but there's something about Sansa's piety that deeply bothers him, and I think it goes past him worrying that she's praying for his death. Sansa's religious faith has been the one thing that the Lannisters have not been able to control or police. Cersei resents her for it as well. If Tyrion has no faith in the gods then he shouldn't be worried if Sansa is praying for his death.

Tyrion doesn't exactly show his emotions openly to Tywin here, but that doesn't have to mean there are none. Besides his thoughts on the mutilated bodies and the "savage mockery" of Catelyn's "funeral", there are those 2:

Tyrion considers Sansa's feelings for once, a nice change from the wedding and just before the wedding. IMO the line does indicate that Tyrion is bothered by it; otherwise he wouldn't spare the thought for her.

Wouter, neither of those two quotes indicate IMO that Tyrion is thinking about Sansa's feelings. The first one is a mere reflection of irony. Sansa praying in the godswood, whilst he's receiving news of her family's slaughter. The fact that he goes on to claim "our little war is winning itself" directly undermines the assumption that he feels emotional about the news. Perhaps more than anyother family member he's able to appreciate the awful perversity of the deaths, but he doesn't feel emotionally about them. He knows that Sansa will of course. As for his actions during the wedding, don't forget that he tried to act as though he was considering her feelings there too, by trotting out the option of Lancel and claiming that he couldn't tell her because it was a matter of state.

Anybody else feels Kevan is quite hypocritical here? Kevan has not only been helping Tywin to plot the Red Wedding, he was also directly involved in arranging the Sansa-Tyrion marriage and helped Tywin to convince Tyrion to go along with it. One wonders if he, together with Tywin, isn't already planning an "accident" for Sansa once she births a heir for the Lannisters' purpose of taking Winterfell. And Sansa being Joffrey's aunt by marriage is entirely meaningless, she is Lannister property and Joffrey knows that.

Yes, Kevan was being hypocritical, but it doesn't mean that he wasn't genuinely shocked by what Joffrey was suggesting. Kevan may not be the best person, but he doesn't seem to have any interest in seeing Sansa humiliated for sport, and he at least respects the fact that she is now married to a Lannister.

[Wouter]

No wonder Tyrion feels a chill. Someone is walking across Lannister graves. And all the Lannisters can see is that they are winning the war.

Tyrion is a Lannister, and he is one of those who can only see they are winning the war. Tyrion has no counter indications - and make no mistake, at this point the Lannisters are winning.

So, it is remarkable Tyrion feels a chill, at least until you factor in he is married to the sister and daughter of those his family just had slaughtered mercilessly.

Tyrion himself is the main reason for the downfall of the Lannisters, together with Sansa and Littlefinger's meddling. Tywin's death is what doomed them.

[Queen of Winter]

That makes two of us who are new then, Queen of Winter! I'm actually quite nervous adding to this thread because it's so well established and everyone leaves such insightful comments.

I agree Avicella! I don't know how much original thought I can add to this thread, as I think most of what I feel has already been stated by other people already. Not to mention that they've said it more eloquently than I could have!

Welcome QoW and Avicella. :)

Thank you Lyanna Stark. Your posts are some of the ones I've enjoyed the most! :thumbsup:

Now back to reading the thread! :read:

[Wouter]

You're contradicting yourself here, Wouter :) First you claim that Tyrion as an atheist has no reason to be worried about Sansa's prayers being answered, then you claim that it's normal for him to be worried that she's praying for his death.

No contradiction - Tyrion does not believe in the Gods, but he believes his wife is fervently wishing (more than wishing, praying and hoping for those prayers to be answered) for him to die. That has to be offputtting if your name isn't Ramsay Snow or Euron Greyjoy - no matter if you believe prayer has no power whatsoever. His wife hates him and wants him to die - that's what bothers him about her (supposed) prayers. The Gods won't answer, but as far as Tyrion knows Sansa could be capable of handling a knife (or maybe, find some poison somewhere...) and answering her prayers herself. The Gods help those who help themselves, don't they?

Wouter, neither of those two quotes indicate IMO that Tyrion is thinking about Sansa's feelings. The first one is a mere reflection of irony. Sansa praying in the godswood, whilst he's receiving news of her family's slaughter. The fact that he goes on to claim "our little war is winning itself" directly undermines the assumption that he feels emotional about the news.

Well, let's agree to disagree on this one. Tyrion's claim is spoken aloud to Tywin and IMO not necessarily representative of his inner state of mind - I place more weigth on the chill he feels, and his unvoiced thoughts on Sansa, rather than in his response to Tywin.

As for his actions during the wedding, don't forget that he tried to act as though he was considering her feelings there too, by trotting out the option of Lancel and claiming that he couldn't tell her because it was a matter of state.

True enough, and it didn't stop him. But here too, it was words spoken aloud that may well have been contradicting his true feelings (as he was forcing Sansa to marry and refused to warn her, his words indeed sounded really hollow).

Yes, Kevan was being hypocritical, but it doesn't mean that he wasn't genuinely shocked by what Joffrey was suggesting. Kevan may not be the best person, but he doesn't seem to have any interest in seeing Sansa humiliated for sport, and he at least respects the fact that she is now married to a Lannister.

Kevan is not sadistic like Joffrey, true, but he is almost as cold and ruthless as his big brother. Sansa is married to a Lannister, but surely Kevan of all people should know this is a total sham?

OK, I guess he had to use some argument to contradict the king.

[Fragile Bird]

This is an interesting idea. She is at her most depressed in the eyes or others, but we know she is just bidding her time until her escape. How long has she been married to Tyrion at this point? A month, maybe two at the most and despite everything she has suffered, she is now isolated, and although completely alone in terms of support, she has to cope with, losing her own private space in terms of a bed to herself or even a room of her own.

I don't think she's even been married a month. It was absolutely urgent that Sansa be married to Tyrion because Joffrey's wedding was coming up and the Tyrells were going to ask her down to Highgarden as soon as the marriage happened. Then Mace was going to ask for Sansa to marry Willas, and Winterfell would slip out of Lannister hands.

[Maroucia]

Anybody else feels Kevan is quite hypocritical here? Kevan has not only been helping Tywin to plot the Red Wedding, he was also directly involved in arranging the Sansa-Tyrion marriage and helped Tywin to convince Tyrion to go along with it. One wonders if he, together with Tywin, isn't already planning an "accident" for Sansa once she births a heir for the Lannisters' purpose of taking Winterfell. And Sansa being Joffrey's aunt by marriage is entirely meaningless, she is Lannister property and Joffrey knows that.

Politicians and rulers often think the same way Kevan and Tywin did: it’s ok to do terrible things for state reasons, but the same cannot be said for your personal good.

To them, the red wedding was done for political reasons. The Starks were their enemies and they saw their selves representing the realm, so anything was acceptable as long as it got the realm rid of the northern rebels.

What is surprising to me though, is that the red wedding is certainly not a direct way to kill enemies, like in a battle; you can’t be proud of that kind of killing because it doesn’t prove your strength or superiority on your opponents. To me, it seems totally out of character for Tywin to participate in such a thing. He seems way prouder then that.

Anyway, to go back on Sansa, I think someone like Kevan, who seems to be a descent man, may have killed people for political reasons, but think that once you have an enemy at your mercy who have no way to defend herself at all (like Sansa), there is no point to keep tormenting her like that.

[brashcandy]

No contradiction - Tyrion does not believe in the Gods, but he believes his wife is fervently wishing (more than wishing, praying and hoping for those prayers to be answered) for him to die. That has to be offputtting if your name isn't Ramsay Snow or Euron Greyjoy - no matter if you believe prayer has no power whatsoever. His wife hates him and wants him to die - that's what bothers him about her (supposed) prayers. The Gods won't answer, but as far as Tyrion knows Sansa could be capable of handling a knife (or maybe, find some poison somewhere...) and answering her prayers herself. The Gods help those who help themselves, don't they?

But there's nothing in Tyrion's POV chapters that indicates he's worried about Sansa doing him physical harm. He's wary of the spiritual harm for sure, but not that she'll take up arms and slit his throat. If he was worried about that then sleeping next to her every night was a strange choice. As for him worrying that she's praying for his death, IIRC that was just a passing thought. He's much more certain that she's praying for her family to win the war. I don't know... but I find this whole topic of religion in Tyrion's and Sansa's relationship to be fascinating.

Well, let's agree to disagree on this one. Tyrion's claim is spoken aloud to Tywin and IMO not necessarily representative of his inner state of mind - I place more weigth on the chill he feels, and his unvoiced thoughts on Sansa, rather than in his response to Tywin.

True enough, and it didn't stop him. But here too, it was words spoken aloud that may well have been contradicting his true feelings (as he was forcing Sansa to marry and refused to warn her, his words indeed sounded really hollow).

I just can't understand why you're assuming that we can't take what Tyrion says at face value on the Red Wedding. He went along with marrying the girl to get Winterfell afterall. When he made the sham offer of Lancel at the wedding he was merely trying to make himself not look like a complete ogre. It was a bogus offer and Sansa treated it as such.

Kevan is not sadistic like Joffrey, true, but he is almost as cold and ruthless as his big brother. Sansa is married to a Lannister, but surely Kevan of all people should know this is a total sham?

OK, I guess he had to use some argument to contradict the king.

Everyone knows it's a power grab, but still there's no reason for Kevan to be interested in seeing the girl tormented for Joffrey's pleasure. Tyrion himself objects to Joffrey's wish, and he's the biggest hypocrite of them all.

[Queen of Winter]

I like that choice of word very much. The godswood is indeed a sanctuary for Sansa - a place untainted by the Lannisters, a little piece of home in the middle of a hostile land, a place to remember happy childhood days and most importantly, it has become the place from which she will be able to go home.

I might be getting a little bit ahead of things or maybe OT (forgive me if I am and tell me so!), but I always thought it was interesting that Sansa prayed in the Godswood (her fathers gods), as well as in the Sept (the Seven being Catelyn's gods). Perhaps it represents a kind of "duality", within her character, in a way. But then again, maybe it means nothing!