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brashcandy

From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa IV

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Hmm, interesting, but I'm not sure if it counts as a large enough discrepancy. Perhaps she really wasn't pulled completely off the horse, but it's just a technicality when he says that she was pulled off.

ETA: Also, it could highlight just how affected Sandor was when he saw she was in danger. He could be the one misremembering and imagining that she was on the ground :)

Well, it makes sense that she was pulled off, because another thing I noted was: Sansa is riding her horse herself at first (obviously :P ), but when the Hound comes cantering back with her, she sits behind him with her arms tightly around his chest.

Now, I don't know about you, but I used to do a lot of horse riding when I was younger, and whomever gets on the horse last will sit behind the first person, normally. It's extremely hard to mount a horse and swing your leg over its head (unless maybe you are very, very tall, which may be the case with the Hound, too). If you are strong though, it's quite possible to pull people up. Since the Hound seems quite good with horses, it is possible he got on the horse quickly after dispersing the crowd and pulled her up. Or he might just be a circus artist and swung her around like woah :P

(Or maybe it's just an inconsistency, I dunno :) )

EDIT: Just saw Rapsie had caught it as well.

And it's not Sansa being weird remembering sitting behind Sandor: this chapter is told from Tyrion's POV (I remember it well since I reread it recently while trying to get my daughter to sleep, heh.)

I hereby promise to not derail the thread further! :o /disappears

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Now i doubt they are making her insane....most likely its just the viewpoint of a scared witless child who is trying to negate some of the more extreme experiences or simply choosing to block out things she is just not ready to deal with for whatever reason.

...now to sound cliche, lol, she misremembers some events as she is subconsciously warging or partially warging so she may have someone else's memory on top of her own??? ok NOW i'm thinking too much.......

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I hereby promise to not derail the thread further! :o /disappears

Oh no, no :) This isn't a thread derailment at all! It's really important that we tease out instances where mismemories could have occurred given the doozie that is the unkiss. So please keep them coming. (of course speaking about future Sansa chapters would count as a slight derailment, along with you know, telling off trolls)

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I need to reread other POV chapters to find similar instances.....but yes i agree it was Tyrion who said she was behind the Hound which means,...well....she was. Sandor mentions her falling off the horse.

Sansa recalls nearly falling....so she most likely DID fall and just blocked it out.

During Tyrion's chapters he mentions how she phases out. Always lost in her own world. Now it would make sense if she appears that way as she isn't interested in interaction with him yet....

what if she really IS "phasing out" which is why she has lapses in memory? Arya isn't consciously warging her wolf but is aware of it. Robb isn't much mentioned about it but we know he does. Jon and Bran definitely warg with full knowledge.

As Lady is dead (and no i dont think she's warging Sandor), I wonder if her mind is just sorta.....scattered jumping about for brief moments??

or part of Lady is still inside her own mind and occasionally comes out so its Lady who experiences brief moments and not Sansa? OK that's stretching but......I dunno

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I'm torn on the T+ S thing, so I put likes to both sides of the argument

Indeed. I too think there is some foreshadowing for and against. Although how the marriage was conducted, and the following chapters are what really put me off it as a plausible ending (and put me off the character of Tyrion for his role in it). Saying that, I can see GRRM doing it due to Tyrion's status as his favourite character and the plot armour issues, but I really can't see given the past history and the chapters we are about to discuss, his pulling off anything but a miserable marriage with two people who do not actually like each other. To do otherwise would take some sort of miracle action in the last two books, IMHO.

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I need to reread other POV chapters to find similar instances.....but yes i agree it was Tyrion who said she was behind the Hound which means,...well....she was. Sandor mentions her falling off the horse.

Sansa recalls nearly falling....so she most likely DID fall and just blocked it out.

During Tyrion's chapters he mentions how she phases out. Always lost in her own world. Now it would make sense if she appears that way as she isn't interested in interaction with him yet....

what if she really IS "phasing out" which is why she has lapses in memory? Arya isn't consciously warging her wolf but is aware of it. Robb isn't much mentioned about it but we know he does. Jon and Bran definitely warg with full knowledge.

As Lady is dead (and no i dont think she's warging Sandor), I wonder if her mind is just sorta.....scattered jumping about for brief moments??

or part of Lady is still inside her own mind and occasionally comes out so its Lady who experiences brief moments and not Sansa? OK that's stretching but......I dunno

Well keep your thoughts handy for future chapters Christina :) I think you'll get some more chances to apply your theory very soon.

Lady's death may mean that Sansa cannot have wolf dreams, but we know she's still capable of warging according to Martin, it will just take longer and probably catch her by surprise when it happens. She still does have a strong "wolf" identity, however, which Kettleback reminded her of in the current chapter, and which did seem to help give her strength to deal with the marriage crisis. And if Sandor is a genuine replacement for Lady as everything so far seems to suggest, then their bond will continue to grow stronger even whilst apart.

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Just FYI, as a tangent, GRRM is going to EasterCon in London and I have sent a question for him via Werthead who is doing a Q&A. I'm fairly certain it may not get more than a "Keep Reading" answer, but I have my fingers crossed.

What I would like to know is: Sansa Stark is at a bit of a disadvantage compared to the other surviving Stark children in that her direwolf is dead and the direwolves have proven important in different ways to the other Stark children. Can we expect her to get a replacement or compensation of sorts to make up for the lack of a direwolf?

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I just want to say this thread keeps getting better and better. I've done quite a bit of riding in my life and I did notice Sansa was behind Sandor, great comments about the fall/not fall. And lapses because unconsciously her mind is trying to warg - now there's a great idea. I will watch to see if there are no lapses at the Fingers and the Vale when there are dogs around. But I don't think she kissed Sandor: that would be too big a miss out of both narratives.

I've been reading all along but the analysis everyone comes up with has been so great, I'm just quietly sitting here, reading, enjoying, drinking too much chablis, eating too much ice cream and eating too much chocolate for my own good.

Brashie and Rapsie - my weight gains will be blamed on you! :bawl:

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Brashie and Rapsie - my weight gains will be blamed on you! :bawl:

Oh my sweet child, why do you speak of weight troubles? When the long night is upon us, and winter blows cold, and GRRM still keeps delaying and delaying, then my child you will know the lean times of hardship, and look back on these threads with longing and misery.

:D

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I just want to say this thread keeps getting better and better. I've done quite a bit of riding in my life and I did notice Sansa was behind Sandor, great comments about the fall/not fall.

I used to ride when I was younger and I could never work out how a man of Sandor's weight and size in armour could have sat in front of the saddle, because if Sansa wasn't pulled off, then she would still have been in the saddle.

Brashie and Rapsie - my weight gains will be blamed on you! :bawl:

Don't worry, I've been eating Ben and Jerry's Fossil Fuel this evening...my Jeans are snugger already. Sigh...also had a nice couple of glasses of Viognier!

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ASOS – Tyrion IV – Summary

As Tyrion goes with Bronn to a wineskin to speak with the blackmailer Symon Silver Tongue he reflects on the fallout from his recent marriage.

He describes his marriage to Sansa as a daily agony. The stable boys laugh at him behind his back and he feels even his horse is laughing at him. He reflects that half the castle knows she is still a maid.

He'd risked his skin to avoid the bedding ritual, hoping to preserve the privacy of his bedchamber, but that hope had been dashed quick enough. Either Sansa had been stupid enough to confide in one of her bed maids, every one of whom was a spy for Cersei, or Varys and his little birds were to blame. What difference did it make? They were laughing at him all the same.

He then thinks of Sansa and notes she is the only one who doesn’t find their marriage amusing.

The only person in the Red Keep who didn't seem to find his marriage a source of amusement was his lady wife.

Sansa's misery was deepening every day. Tyrion would gladly have broken through her courtesy to give her what solace he might, but it was no good. No words would ever make him fair in her eyes. Or any less a Lannister. This was the wife they had given him, for all the rest of his life, and she hated him.

He then reflects that their nights together are even worse, because he can no longer sleep naked because he can’t bear the look of revulsion in Sansa’s eyes when she looks at him, although he reflects

His wife was too well trained ever to say an unkind word.

He has commanded her to wear a sleeping shift as well.

I want her, he realized. I want Winterfell, yes, but I want her as well, child or woman or whatever she is. I want to comfort her. I want to hear her laugh. I want her to come to me willingly, to bring me her joys and her sorrows and her lust.

He then thinks of Shae and how he had wanted to tell her about the wedding himself the night before it happened.

"Wait," he said, "there is something you must hear. On the morrow I am to be wed . . . ". . . to Sansa Stark. I know." He was speechless for an instant. Even Sansa did not know, not then. "How could you know? Did Varys tell you?" "Some page was telling Ser Tallad about it when I took Lollys to the sept. He had it from this serving girl who heard Ser Kevan talking to your father." She wriggled free of his grasp and pulled her dress up over her head. As ever, she was naked underneath. "I don't care. She's only a little girl. You'll give her a big belly and come back to me." Some part of him had hoped for less indifference. Had hoped, he jeered bitterly, but now you know better, dwarf. Shae is all the love you're ever like to have.

He meets Symon the blackmailer who knows about him and Shae and when Symon refuses his offer and asks for a different price Tyrion promises him that Bronn will deliver his reward. During the conversation the blackmailer says

My sweet lady Shae tells me you are newly wed. Would that you had sent for me earlier. I should have been honored to sing at your feast." "The last thing my wife needs is more songs," said Tyrion. "As for Shae, we both know she is no lady, and I would thank you never to speak her name aloud."

After the meeting Tyrion tells Bronn to kill the blackmailer and dispose of the body.

In the Castle he meets Pod who tells him his father wants to see him. Tyrion meets his father to find Tywin looking at two Valyrian swords: one for Joff and one for Jaime. Tyrion laments that there is no sword for him.

Tywin brings up the subject of Sansa Stark.

"You will," his father promised, "and while you are about it, see if you can find your wife's bed as well."

Tyrion reflects that the gossip has reached him. Tywin suggests since he knows where his bed is, he should know his wife, the woman who shares it with him. Tyrion thinks she is a child, not a woman. He asks why all his wife’s maids are Cersei’s spies and Tywin says he is free to choose his own. He then continues to press Tyrion about Sansa.

That is your right. It is your wife's maidenhood that concerns me, not her maids. This ... delicacy puzzles me. You seem to have no difficulty bedding whores. Is the Stark girl made differently?"

"Why do you take so much bloody interest in where I put my cock?" Tyrion demanded. "Sansa is too young."

"She is old enough to be Lady of Winterfell once her brother is dead. Claim her maidenhood and you will be one step closer to claiming the north. Get her with child, and the prize is all but won. Do I need to remind you that a marriage that has not been consummated can be set aside?"

"By the High Septon or a Council of Faith. Our present High Septon is a trained seal who barks prettily on command. Moon Boy is more like to annul my marriage than he is." "Perhaps I should have married Sansa Stark to Moon Boy. He might have known what to do with her."

Tyrion's hands clenched on the arms of his chair. "I have heard all I mean to hear on the subject of my wife's maidenhead. But so long as we are discussing marriage, why is it that I hear nothing of my sister's impending nuptials? As I recall — "

Tywin interrupts him to say the Tyrells have refused Cersei’s hand in marriage. This upsets Tywin as the reason put forward is Cersei is too old and too used. It puts Tyrion in a good mood though. Pycelle later comes in and they discuss the issues on the Wall. Tywin suggests that Janos Slynt be put in charge and Tyrion objects. Tywin ignores him. Tyrion reflects that he should have killed Pycelle and Janos Slynt, but reflects that he has not made the foolish mistake of letting Symon Silver Tongue live.

Analysis

From this chapter it is clear that Tyrion and Sansa’s marriage was common gossip amongst the servants and some other Lannister retainers and knights before it happened. We know from the dressmaking chapter that the seamstress knew about it. The issue this raises is what was being gossiped about? Is it the fact Sansa, the Bride, wasn’t to know about it, or was it just normal gossip. Ser Talland seems to associate with the Tyrells, but they did not appear to know. Either way it seems like the wedding was a joke from the start. The events of the wedding when Sansa cried and wouldn’t kneel also seem to be prime gossip issues, as well as Tyrion’s non-consummation of it. Even Tyrion at the wedding, before the bedding had derisively told Sansa when she asked him to dance, that they had given the guests enough amusement for the day.

Shae’s comments also suggest that it was seen as a power grab.

"I don't care. She's only a little girl. You'll give her a big belly and come back to me."
Shae acts as though it is not a proper marriage, and her comment about Sansa being “only a little girl”, suggests that like the previous marriage between Tyrek and Esmerelda where Tyrek was mocked as wet nurse for being married to a toddler, that Tyrion maybe mocked for marrying a child in a power grab.

He'd risked his skin to avoid the bedding ritual, hoping to preserve the privacy of his bedchamber, but that hope had been dashed quick enough.

The impression I got from this statement that Tyrion had avoided the bedding in order not have the people listening and making rude japes outside the bedroom door, rather than preserve Sansa and his dignity by being stripped. Again the fact that Tyrion was completely compared to consummate the marriage, would, I think back this interpretation up, as he wanted the “privacy” of what was happening in the bedroom preserved.

The only person in the Red Keep who didn't seem to find his marriage a source of amusement was his lady wife.

Sansa's misery was deepening every day.

Despite everything Sansa has been through in her year as a hostage it is notable that the marriage to Tyrion that truly seems to break her spirit.

Tyrion’s impression of Sansa as a person is also evident in this chapter, as when he talks about her as a person, rather than his desires towards her, he thinks the following statements

Either Sansa had been stupid enough to confide in one of her bed maids,
His wife was too well trained ever to say an unkind word.

"The last thing my wife needs is more songs," said Tyrion.
but the revulsion in her eyes whenever she looked on his body was more than he could bear.

None of these are particularly pleasant comments or thoughts. Oddly the first two echo Sandor’s first impression of her, that she is like a pretty bird from the Summer Isles, repeating everything her Septa has told her: stupid and trained.

Indeed Tyrion seems exasperated by her love of songs and can’t cope with her revulsion to him, whilst at the same time thinking of her as stupid and well trained. He also doesn’t seem to see that she is as guarded with what she says to him as what she says in the RK full stop. We know from her conversations with Sandor and Dontos, that she can be quite direct on issues, although she is rarely unkind.

Compare our analysis of her so far and it seems that Tyrion has very little concept of her personality at all. What it does show though is perhaps the general impression people in the RK have of her. A stupid, but polite girl.

Looking at Tyrion’s desires in view to their future marriage.

I want her, he realized. I want Winterfell, yes, but I want her as well, child or woman or whatever she is. I want to comfort her. I want to hear her laugh. I want her to come to me willingly, to bring me her joys and her sorrows and her lust.

Tyrion would gladly have broken through her courtesy to give her what solace he might, but it was no good. No words would ever make him fair in her eyes. Or any less a Lannister. This was the wife they had given him, for all the rest of his life, and she hated him.

Some areas of these statements struck me as strange and as if he was projecting the Tysha fantasy he has Shae and other prostitutes play on to Sansa. True he wants to comfort her and be her protect her, but he also wants Winterfell and his conversation with his father makes it very clear that he is aware of how he will get it and it doesn’t seem to bother him. He doesn’t even think about the following his father says, or comment on it

"She is old enough to be Lady of Winterfell once her brother is dead.

I had always hoped Tyrion had just been willingly blind to the fact that Robb had to die for him to become Lord of Winterfell, and I never picked up on this phrase before, and although Tyrion was not part of the Red Wedding, his desire to have Winterfell, depended on his wife’s brother’s death. This can’t be anything but a barrier between them. Tyrion was counting on Robb dying for him to get his prize.

It also makes a mockery of his previous statement about

I want to comfort her. I want to hear her laugh. I want her to come to me willingly, to bring me her joys and her sorrows
Her sorrows have to increase for him to benefit. He is still working towards the destruction of her family.

Also his statement about “her lust” also didn’t sit well. He himself recognizes she is a child and too young for sexual urges such as lust etc. He says,

"Sansa is too young."
I think this again highlights his wish for her to be the Tysha replacement. He doesn’t see her as a person, just as a potential other Tysha. He is already fantasizing about her personality, because her courtesy armour is keeping her actual self away from him.

Also, if he wanted to comfort her, then why not tell her before the wedding that it was happening. He goes to the trouble of telling Shae, because he cares about her feelings, but not the girl he is marrying. Now I know he was not meant to, but he was not meant to have Shae in the RK either. He could have arranged something with Varys. So why didn’t he?

We also find out in this chapter that the marriage can be set aside. Is this option here as foreshadowing that it will be set aside, or that Sansa will reject an annulment to stay with him?

In conclusion, we see Sansa through someone elses eyes and the portrait is not flattering. Oddly Tyrion completely misunderstands Sansa’s personality, but both Sandor and Little Finger already have a better measure of her. We also see that the marriage is truly making her miserable and making Tyrion miserable as well. It is also the subject of gossip and mockery. Sansa has been through so much humiliation already, that I can only imagine what the Tyrell’s ditching her and being the laughing stock of the RK must have felt like. It would have been good to see a POV from her when she goes back to reformulate her escape plans with Ser Dontos. Indeed, her commitment to the marriage, is obvious from the fact that she restarts the escape plan. Whilst she would have married Willas, she is desperate to get away from Tyrion and the threat of Joff.

Tywin’s attitude again highlighted his ruthlessness and his casual way of referring to Robb Stark’s death whilst looking at the Stark family steel he has defiled, again suggests that he is not bothered about either Tyrion or Sansa. In fact the intact blade would have helped any son of Tyrion and Sansa in their claim to Winterfell. So by denying the sword to the proposed rightful heir, was he actually expecting Tyrion to succeed, or just interested in further humiliating the North?

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humiliating the North?

me think it was that what he intends. I have the bad feeling his own grave will be defied

funny side question WHY didn't tyrion ask for the blade from ser ilyn as a wedding gift

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me think it was that what he intends. I have the bad feeling his own grave will be defied

funny side question WHY didn't tyrion ask for the blade from ser ilyn as a wedding gift

Were there any Wedding gifts at all?

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Wonderful analysis Rapsie!!

The complete self-absorption and selfishness of Tyrion in this chapter is shocking, and it's clear that whilst he might view both Shae and Sansa as objects, he's much more concerned and invested in Shae's happiness and security. Here's what he tells Sansa on the day of the wedding:

My lady, this is no way to bring you to your wedding. I am sorry for that. And for making this so sudden, and so secret. My lord father felt it necessary, for reasons of state.

But clearly these "reasons of state" didn't prevent him from confiding in his mistress. I was very very disappointed in Tyrion's thoughts throughout this entire chapter, and it underscores the point that is often made that he really does not care about or know the real Sansa. He wants her to bring him her joys, sorrows and lust, but how can she do this when he is the cause of all her sorrows. And notice the repetition of "I want", not what Sansa might want or need as a hostage in a marriage. She's to play the act of the happy wife so that Tyrion can feel better about himself. As for the lust part, I agree Rapsie, that was just disturbing. On the one hand you emphasise that she's a child, but on the other you're desiring her sexually?

And speaking of desiring her sexually - it's the height of hypocrisy for Tyrion to be upset that Sansa is distancing herself from him, when he has Shae to satisfy his sexual needs and doesn't have any intention of giving her up, going so far as to have the singer murdered to protect his secret. Sansa is isolated, with no one to talk to, while Tyrion still has his mistress to stroke his ego.

You're also right about the him not going through with the bedding ritual because he wanted to have an easier time when it came to consummating the marriage. Again, not really worried about Sansa. I had forgotten that Sansa had to sleep in bed with him too. That must have been nightly agony for her, knowing of what she told him on their wedding night and wondering if at any time he might decide to change his mind and take his "rights".

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You're also right about the him not going through with the bedding ritual because he wanted to have an easier time when it came to consummating the marriage. Again, not really worried about Sansa. I had forgotten that Sansa had to sleep in bed with him too. That must have been nightly agony for her, knowing of what she told him on their wedding night and wondering if at any time he might decide to change his mind and take his "rights".

I just had this horrible mental image of Sansa flinching everytime Tyrion shifted in his sleep.

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I had forgotten that Sansa had to sleep in bed with him too. That must have been nightly agony for her, knowing of what she told him on their wedding night and wondering if at any time he might decide to change his mind and take his "rights".

This is never touched upon but maybe alluded to (highly speculative) in a future chapter, but although he has given his word not to touch her, he has also vowed previous to this to send her home and not to savage her. He has broken his word regarding this, so why would Sansa believe he would keep his word in regard to not consummating the marriage until she was ready?

I think it will come up in a later chapter, but she does reflect on his words and thinks that that was just another Lannister lie.

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This is never touched upon but maybe alluded to (highly speculative) in a future chapter, but although he has given his word not to touch her, he has also vowed previous to this to send her home and not to savage her. He has broken his word regarding this, so why would Sansa believe he would keep his word in regard to not consummating the marriage until she was ready?

I think it will come up in a later chapter, but she does reflect on his words and thinks that that was just another Lannister lie.

Yes, I believe you're right. As Winterbreath says above the image of poor Sansa cringing in bed everytime Tyrion moves is awful. I think Tyrion's involvement in the marriage to Sansa and his callous ordering of Symon's murder really signals the start of his dark path in ASOS/ADWD. Yes, Symon was a great fool and was causing trouble, but sending Shae away might have solved the problem and certainly removed Symon's blackmailing trump card.

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In this chapter is when it is reflect how much shelfish is Tyrion. Always looking for power, for being the center of the universe. Always it is an "I", how pitiful he is. But when he can do something truly for others, he doesn´t.

If he wants to get to Sansa, why he doesn´t try it? No, he just keeps Shae, and even to have her near as a Sansa chambermaid.

As always, he tries to trick him, and avoids to try to see him as he truly is. (And don´t get me wrong, I like a lot Tyrion and his POV, but I can´t deny this facts).

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