From Pawn to Player? Rereading Sansa IV

[voodooqueen126]

I honestly don't even have the words to describe how much this one act made me hate that man. It is not bad enough that she has lost half her family, or that you are plotting the murder of the rest, or that you are forcing her into a repugnant marriage that is not even that important to Tywin strategically - he obviously is dubious about the idea that this will ever result in Tyrion ruling Winterfell, he would never entrust such a plum to Tyrion. If he truly thought this was the way to own Winterfell he'd have married her to Devan or Lancel, someone he believes might have a chance at holding it. I believe at this point he has probably already promised Winterfell to Bolton in exchange for his participation in the RW.

No, this move is solely to keep Sansa out of Tyrell hands, and keep Tyrion occupied and placated for a while so he won't make too much a nuisance of himself. And for those lousy, half assed reasons, let the consummation with the child commence!

There really is no word for him.

Hmn, I am not sure, I think that Tywin did indeed for Tyrion to rule Winterfell. I think Tywin (rightfully I am afraid) realised that having the Warden of the North being well Tyrion, would be a huge humiliation for the Northerners.

In Winterfell Tyrion would out of sight and out of mind and humiliating some other family (by filling Winterfell up with whores whilst Joffrey was allowed to turn Sansa into his plaything/Tywin had Sansa poisoned).

[Woman of War]

The Tyrion-Sansa wedding was truly one of the most heartbreaking chapters in the whole books. There is Cat sitting after she hears that her sons have been murdered, there is the Red Wedding. And there is the torture of Jeyne Poole to whom the very worst really happened.

But that marriage chapter here was so incredibly heart wrenching because we are following the two protagonists in real time, not being spared the ugliest details, the awkward silence and the horrible distance between them. This is truly masterful writing from GRRM's side, far from making use of any fantasy trope.

I honestly don't even have the words to describe how much this one act made me hate that man. It is not bad enough that she has lost half her family, or that you are plotting the murder of the rest, or that you are forcing her into a repugnant marriage that is not even that important to Tywin strategically - he obviously is dubious about the idea that this will ever result in Tyrion ruling Winterfell, he would never entrust such a plum to Tyrion. If he truly thought this was the way to own Winterfell he'd have married her to Devan or Lancel, someone he believes might have a chance at holding it. I believe at this point he has probably already promised Winterfell to Bolton in exchange for his participation in the RW.

agree

Yes, Tyrion was manipulated into agreeing to that marriage farce by Tywin in the same cruelly abusive manner Tywin had used towards Tyrion all his lifetime: seemingly feeding him morsels of recognition and care only to push him back the next moment in the crudest way. He had done that to a child who had wanted nothing more than affection by anyone, first of all by that terrible God-father. So Tywin managed to keep Tyrion still in an immature emotional dependency by that cruel kick-the-dog-and-feed-him treatment. Given his intellectual possibilities Tyrion is indeed emotionally rather immature, at least concerning his own emotions, his most shaping experience being the Tysha disaster.

Tyrion wants to have his cake and eat it too - save a beautiful girl in distress from a terrible fate (Sansa being abused and probably raped by Joffrey or another Lannister) and become Lord of Winterfell by marrying her, and have her love him too. He's cast Sansa as a noble-born version of Tysha with one heckuva dowry.

agree

I think that Tyrion was indeed convinced being the lesser catastrophe for Sansa, compared to the rest of the Lannister bunch. And part of his mind had the illusion that he could make things work,, subconsciously hoping for doing it right this time, not letting the next child-girl down like he did with Tysha. While being an abused child himself here I guess he personally felt even more guilt about the gang rape than we modern day readers, well informed about child abuse and manipulation of girls and boys all over the world, would accuse him of. And so he got the twisted idea to do it better this time, straight way into disaster.

But let's not forget, we only get Sansa's POV about the wedding day. Still, it is her who perceives the terrible insecurity and fear of Tyrion, a POV from him might have told us even more. And I agree with other posters, the rude portcullis line was meant to deflect further threats by Joffrey.

Now the two being in the bedroom together: Sansa is indeed rather composed in the face of the unknown horror that might await her. Tyrion behaves in his insecurity like a boy of sixteen bravely facing his first sex and not like the experienced john who routinely gets rather attractive girls for his pleasure.He himself is thoroughly shaken by what awaits him and I had in no way the impression that he is looking forward to it.

And then I was shocked as reader: Sansa herself suggests that she might take her clothes off and Tyrion says: "You might as well do", both of them decided to get it over with the inevitable. Why was I so very shocked by that minor detail? No, Sansa does not feel pushed to do the deed because she fears for her life here, nor because she thinks Tyrion would force her anyway.

She decides to AGREE in consummation because she perceives this as her duty now. To Sansa being brave means to do what is expected of her without showing disgust. She does not question her role as wife she now has to play after having spoken the vows, she wants to be a good girl, a good woman, willing to fulfill the expectations of society, she herself thinks she has no right to resist even an unwanted husband. This is the lot of noble girls and a true lady will be brave and do her duty. Sansa herself has internalized the expectations of others how a correct wedding night has to be done and the expectations on women in general. Remember her lying there:

"She did not know what was expected of her. Should she open her legs for him?" this is so incredibly humiliating but part of that humiliation comes from the fact that Sansa is willing to go along with her own abuse because she thinks that by now Tyrion has a right do to the deed! She does not allow herself anymore to protest, to talk him out of it. Only when Tyrion stops himself and shows her a way out she masters some courage and refuses him not only for this time but forever. And the shocking thing for me was how very much Sansa is brainwashed by her perfect upbringing to go along with her society's expectations in being a lady and a good girl.

And no, Tyrion is not the one who does the crime here. But he commits every mistake that can be done:

He talks about a former relationship that has gone wrong, he tells Sansa that he wants her, at the same time he tells her that this is basically wrong. And after he is aware that she is not going to put her courtesy armour away and he realizes that there is no way for them to reach each other emotionally he tries a lousy farce of seduction to get the dirty deed done somehow. I think he may have been technically aroused by the sight of Sansa but this was a mere physical response to a naked beautiful girl, he did not really desire her as a lover, at least not now anymore.

I did feel a little sad for Tyrion when Sansa is looking unhappily at his naked body; but he was the one who insisted on baring himself to her. A man as smart as Tyrion could have planned a more measured and sensitive seduction, and started out with some touching in the dark and moved on, over a period of months, to actual sex, rather than present himself naked to so young and reluctant a bride. A slower seduction might not have gained Sansa's love, but it would have been far less traumatic for both of them.

i think seduction would have been hopeless here at this stage of the night (fortunately anyway, she was twelve, seduced or not - horrible idea) and for the next months as well. Tyrion did not PRESENT himself naked, he did not bother anymore, he expected to be seen as disgusting, he had given up on seduction, feeling that he had had his chance and botched it, completely confirmed when she shuddered under his touch. He did not expect her to overlook his ugliness, at this point of the night he was absolutely convinced that things had gone wrong. He himself intended to do his duty and think of seven kingdoms - until he realized that this would have been an absolutely cruel crime, precisely not lessened by Sansa's willingness to succumb to it. Then he gave her a choice and she made more use of it than he had hoped, still he backed off, this time doing the right thing.

Martin here spares us nothing, we get all the embarrassment and emotional torture of both characters. Two people giving horror to each other where they could have reached out, talking, without sex of course, trying to be compassionate towards each other. And I do not forget that Tyrion was the adult here who should have assured Sansa and offered her some safety.

No, the ship or their marriage has drowned for the near story future, hard to tell if Martin might decide to bring up the wreck and repair it somehow if the timespan covered by the books is long enough. This would take at least as much writing skills as the description of the disaster. And It would certainly not happen without having both characters rather beaten by life in their respective storyline. Nothing fairytale-like. The author will decide, no point in mind reading.

[brashcandy]

Hmn, I am not sure, I think that Tywin did indeed for Tyrion to rule Winterfell. I think Tywin (rightfully I am afraid) realised that having the Warden of the North being well Tyrion, would be a huge humiliation for the Northerners. In Winterfell Tyrion was out of sight and out of mind.

I agree with you here, VQ. I think Tywin planned on having Tyrion rule Winterfell, and was probably at some point planning to double cross the Boltons.

Anyways, as a general note, I'm curious as to how exactly that chapter showed that Tywin manipulated Tyrion in any way. Was he outrageously disdainful and disrespectful towards his son? Sure, but that's nothing new. His comments about Sansa didn't strike me as particularly heinous, afterall this is the man who had Tyrion's first wife gang raped and paraded his father's mistress naked through the streets. He offered his daughter as the prize jewel for Robert's rebellion and didn't seem to care that she was miserable with the man. So no, his willingness to pawn Sansa off to Tyrion doesn't surprise me. In this scene I think Tyrion manipulated Tyrion - he knew the game his father was playing and he chose to go along with it rather than hold out for a bride that wasn't a prisoner of his family.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

Quote

Tyrion is entitled to his bitterness that kind of treatment since birth cant make you anything but bitter and to expect him to rise above it like a pheonix out of the ashes when it comes to women is just unfair.

Why is it unfair to expect him to rise above it? He certainly shouldn't be trying to alleviate that bitterness and his frustration with his family by causing misery to another person.

We expect Jaime to rise above being a priviledged, blessed, favored pretty boy.....so why can't we expect Tyrion to rise above his lot in life??? His lot in life was by far waaaaaaaay better than Penny's lot and yet she has risen and is by far a happier, kinder soul than he is. I am glad he met her as she is, in her quiet way, teaching him this later on (but that is outside of this book so I won't get too far into it)

[brashcandy]

And the shocking thing for me was how very much Sansa is brainwashed by her perfect upbringing to go along with her society's expectations in being a lady and a good girl.

Woman of war, she wasn't going along with the bedding because she had been brainwashed into a perfect lady and good girl. She was going along with it because she felt she had zero options to do otherwise. Where was she going to run, or to whom? The people she felt were her allies in KL had just refused to speak to her at the wedding feast, and the Lannisters certainly weren't going to take pity on her. What she was trying to do was to conquer her fears, and fortunately for Sansa, Tyrion recognized her distress and stopped himself from going further

[voodooqueen126]

Now the two being in the bedroom together: Sansa is indeed rather composed in the face of the unknown horror that might await her. Tyrion behaves in his insecurity like a boy of sixteen bravely facing his first sex and not like the experienced john who routinely gets rather attractive girls for his pleasure.He himself is thoroughly shaken by what awaits him and I had in no way the impression that he is looking forward to it.

And then I was shocked as reader: Sansa herself suggests that she might take her clothes off and Tyrion says: "You might as well do", both of them decided to get it over with the inevitable. Why was I so very shocked by that minor detail? No, Sansa does not feel pushed to do the deed because she fears for her life here, nor because she thinks Tyrion would force her anyway.

She decides to AGREE in consummation because she perceives this as her duty now. To Sansa being brave means to do what is expected of her without showing disgust. She does not question her role as wife she now has to play after having spoken the vows, she wants to be a good girl, a good woman, willing to fulfill the expectations of society, she herself thinks she has no right to resist even an unwanted husband. This is the lot of noble girls and a true lady will be brave and do her duty. Sansa herself has internalized the expectations of others how a correct wedding night has to be done and the expectations on women in general. Remember her lying there:

"She did not know what was expected of her. Should she open her legs for him?" this is so incredibly humiliating but part of that humiliation comes from the fact that Sansa is willing to go along with her own abuse because she thinks that by now Tyrion has a right do to the deed! She does not allow herself anymore to protest, to talk him out of it. Only when Tyrion stops himself and shows her a way out she masters some courage and refuses him not only for this time but forever. And the shocking thing for me was how very much Sansa is brainwashed by her perfect upbringing to go along with her society's expectations in being a lady and a good girl.

Groan. Internets ate my post.

Why did Sansa remove her clothes? This along with her saving Lancel and dancing at the Wedding. Though some people are able to explain that.

It would not have been hard to have kept her clothes on, and therefore have been able to lie there lump like and present additional obstacles...It's said that naked people never resist, so by taking off her clothes, she takes off a physical kind of armour that would help her resist a little bit.

Though I don't think it's because she's brain washed by her cultures gender norms, since she earlier made her refusal known by refusing to kneel... She was certainly plotting to escape throughout her whole marriage to Tyrion.

[Woman of War]

Yes, taking off her clothes does not really go along with her positively stubborn refusal to kneel.

Maybe this is a means by Martin to present her as totally delivered to Tyrion's mercy, emphazising her determination to do her duty. And maybe he wants to emphazise the contrast between Sansa's physical perfection and Tyrion's ugliness. He is making his characters helplessly naked, robs both of them of their dignity, going along with ripping open their souls. Therefore both had to be naked, and without force, doing this, the ultimate humiliation, to themselves.

Being naked there is described as cruel and painful, the young girl delivered to the eyes of a man she does not want and the cripple seen in all his ugliness - no mercy here for both of them, bare flesh and bare soul.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

Quote

Tyrion does have time for bastards and cripples unlike the rest of the cast. Just because he would prefer to have an attractive and intelligent wife over one that is not doesn't make him bad. It makes him human. How many of you would marry Lollys because beauty is only skin deep? This is a world where appearances matter and Tyrion gets laughed at enough without his marriage being made a mockery of.

Bronn married her

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

Perhaps Sansa removed her own clothing because she would rather do it herself than have him touch her. It minimizes his physical contact with her.

Also, she just plain didn't know what to do. She was basically asking him "What am I supposed to do now?"

[Lyanna Stark]

Perhaps Sansa removed her own clothing because she would rather do it herself than have him touch her. It minimizes his physical contact with her.

Also, she just plain didn't know what to do. She was basically asking him "What am I supposed to do now?"

It makes you wonder how innocent Sansa really is. I'm sure she has some idea of how things work, but it seems she's not really to clear on all the details. I can't see Septa Mordane being able (or willing) to really go to into details when it comes to what goes on in a marriage. There is only so far the courtesey armour will take you, too. Myranda Royce and Mya Stone may be helpful to Sansa since she could use a good helping of what's what.

@woman of war

He is making his characters helplessly naked, robs both of them of their dignity, going along with ripping open their souls. Therefore both had to be naked, and without force, doing this, the ultimate humiliation, to themselves.

Being naked there is described as cruel and painful, the young girl delivered to the eyes of a man she does not want and the cripple seen in all his ugliness - no mercy here for both of them, bare flesh and bare soul.

Yes, this was my understanding too. If you are naked, you are also doubly exposed and vulnerable; even more so to when wearing clothes. This scene seems to be written in such a way as to wring maximum embarrassment and vulnerability out of it.

[voodooqueen126]

Yes, taking off her clothes does not really go along with her positively stubborn refusal to kneel.

Maybe this is a means by Martin to present her as totally delivered to Tyrion's mercy, emphazising her determination to do her duty. And maybe he wants to emphazise the contrast between Sansa's physical perfection and Tyrion's ugliness. He is making his characters helplessly naked, robs both of them of their dignity, going along with ripping open their souls. Therefore both had to be naked, and without force, doing this, the ultimate humiliation, to themselves.

Being naked there is described as cruel and painful, the young girl delivered to the eyes of a man she does not want and the cripple seen in all his ugliness - no mercy here for both of them, bare flesh and bare soul.

what is that word...

self abnegation? Apparently it appears an awful lot in Faulkner novels and was originally associated with military dispatchs for soldiers who sacrificed their lives...

Did she see it as her duty though? her determination to escape throughout her whole marriage to him, her equivocation "as my king commands", it's not very dutiful.

The only explanation I can fathom is that she expected no mercy, and just wanted it be over and done with.

[Summerqueen]

He couldn't put her marriage cloak on without help. Thinking that he may have to call for assistance to help bed her after all may be reason enough to undress. Maybe it's the best she can do for the skipping of the bedding ceremony. I'm not sure there needs to be a simple explanation beyond that she's not a cynic and is very much aware that this IS happening, whatever her thoughts on the matter. She's not allowed to resist, doesn't know what will happen if she does. I see her as merely trying to be mature and get the whole thing over with.

I'm also of the camp who thinks Tywin is not stupid enough to think Tyrion could rule at Winterfell. It seems more likely that moving there would be like asking to be killed. He would have to impose harsh punishments on the North indeed to get anyone behind Tyrion taking over. Multiple hostages from every banner house, heavy taxes to insure against arming up or contracting for Tyrion's life. He would have to wait until Sansa bore a son to send Tyrion North, if then, and then he'd have to expect numerous life-ending plots during the Winter when roads are impassable. He'd also have to doubt that any non-dwarf child was legit. I mean, he knows his own daughter has set an example for how women can get even with a hated husband. Tywin is cruel but not stupid. Winterfell is leverage against Tyrion. He wants him to stop thinking about the Rock. If Northern malcontents get rid of him in the end, he'll have something to do come spring, after the rest of the realm is settled. He won't be crying into his beer.

[voodooqueen126]

He couldn't put her marriage cloak on without help. Thinking that he may have to call for assistance to help bed her after all may be reason enough to undress. Maybe it's the best she can do for the skipping of the bedding ceremony. I'm not sure there needs to be a simple explanation beyond that she's not a cynic and is very much aware that this IS happening, whatever her thoughts on the matter. She's not allowed to resist, doesn't know what will happen if she does. I see her as merely trying to be mature and get the whole thing over with.

I'm also of the camp who thinks Tywin is not stupid enough to think Tyrion could rule at Winterfell. It seems more likely that moving there would be like asking to be killed. He would have to impose harsh punishments on the North indeed to get anyone behind Tyrion taking over. Multiple hostages from every banner house, heavy taxes to insure against arming up or contracting for Tyrion's life. He would have to wait until Sansa bore a son to send Tyrion North, if then, and then he'd have to expect numerous life-ending plots during the Winter when roads are impassable. He'd also have to doubt that any non-dwarf child was legit. I mean, he knows his own daughter has set an example for how women can get even with a hated husband. Tywin is cruel but not stupid. Winterfell is leverage against Tyrion. He wants him to stop thinking about the Rock. If Northern malcontents get rid of him in the end, he'll have something to do come spring, after the rest of the realm is settled. He won't be crying into his beer.

Hmn it is possible to have sex with clothes on (especially a dress) and Tyrion could have reached her underwear... but keeping clothes on means that their is potential for less physical contact.

Though it's possible Sansa may not know this..

Hmn we say that having read ADWD.... but really who could have predicted that the Northerners would be so loyal and so true to the Starks?

I mean especially for people like Tywin, it's rather hard for that sort of person to understand such obedience given in love, rather than fear...

[Summerqueen]

Tywin's been working with Bolton by this point. He knows the man is ambitious, not loyal to the Starks, and probably not going to be okay with Tyrion getting all claim-grabby. Especially since he will be getting a claim of his own via the deal made with Tywin for Arya. No, it's not the real Arya. This doesn't matter to Bolton because he will make it work for him, regardless. Tywin knows this.

[1234567]

Sorry for the very long post.

The whole scene between Tyrion and Tywin is sickening. Tywin’s comment that

Your sister swears she’s flowered. If so, she is a woman fit to be wed. You must needs take her maidenhead, so no man can say the marriage was not consummated. After that, if you prefer to wait a year or two before bedding her again, you would be within your rights as a husband.

Highlights that even he knows she is too young, but as he says himself, the girl’s happiness doesn’t matter. He maybe manipulating Tyrion, but Tyrion goes along with it due to his desire to have Winterfell and a beautiful wife. He has defied his father before and continues to endanger Shae (his supposed love) just to suit his desires. He may be unaware of the full details, but for him to get Winterfell, he himself knows that Robb has to be out of the picture. Therefore he is complicit in screwing over Sansa’s brother and to some extent, he must know that Robb’s death is likely.

She had to bite her lip to keep from sobbing.

Although she bites her lip, what I had missed previously was that she wept all the way through the ceremony. Her distress is awful to see, and how Tyrion remains oblivious to it is beyond belief. While she has done what is asked of her, we do at least see when she refuses to kneel, the strength of will that so few in KL seem to realise is in her character. When she finally kneels, it is past the symbolic cloak ceremony, and is soley out of kindness. She could have embarrassed Tyrion further, but the point about not kneeling, to me at least, was her defience at her own humiliation. Her grace and dignity in this situation was again very befitting of a Queen.

My friends, Sansa thought bitterly.

Another horribly harsh lesson to learn about people and it is sad that this chapter really marks the beginning of Sansa seeing herself as just a claim to others and not someone who is wanted for herself. Not telling her in advance was also particularly cruel.

“Come, wife, time to smash your portcullis. I want to play come-into-the-castle.”

I know a lot of people suggest that Tyrion was throwing a bone to the crowd, but to be honest this sounds just like the normal snarky Tyrion. He is not terribly sensitive about other’s feelings if he himself thinks something is funny. (Although the Pretty / Bacon incident in ADWD may actually make him reflect on his behaviour, as he himself didn’t think it was funny when someone else said the same joke and it hurt Penny’s feelings). The bedding had been dispensed with, and there was not need to do this, but he was angry and angry people say things that are hurtful. Also given his later bitterness about her not kneeling, I wonder if some of this was getting his own back.

He is as frightened as I am, Sansa realized. Perhaps that should have made her feel more kindly towards him, but it did not. All she felt was pity, and pity was death to desire. He was looking at her, waiting for her to say something, but all her words had withered. She could only stand there trembling.

It took all the courage that was in her to look in those mismatched eyes and say, “And if I never want you to, my lord?”

Unlike Tyrion, Sansa has only had a few hours to mentally prepare herself for this. This is where I think Tyrion really has failed morally. He has known about this impending wedding for up to two weeks and been prepared to consummate the marriage by forcing an unwilling prisoner. Whether he had convinced himself that like his prostitutes who act a part, Sansa was going to be a sudden loving Tysha 2.0 is up for debate. It would have been good to have some idea of what he was thinking at this point. Either way, he was not prepared for her to say she would never want him. Tyrion has a wonderful ability to delude himself (like with the mountain clans and the people of KL) and this statement was a wake up call for him.

Sansa during this entire scene displays an immense amount of courage. She has been repeatedly humiliated by Joffery as we know and has grown to be able to hide what she feels. In fact she has become so used to not revealing her true feelings, that even saying she would never want him is incredibly brave.

Bottom line: Tyrion could have refused Tywin. He could have chosen, no matter the extent of his father’s displeasure, to not be part of a sham marriage to steal a girl’s claim with the very real possibility that it would involve tramping over the graves of her family members, and ignoring the pain that the girl would feel from such a union with the family that murdered hers. Whilst being fully aware that Tywin and Kevan were out to entrap him, Tyrion allows himself to be ensnared by the lure of a pretty wife and an impressive castle. His thoughts on Sansa as “sweet-smelling” and loving songs, chivalry and tall gallant knights are only considered as to how they make him feel, not as a serious objection to why would he make this girl extremely unhappy.

I agree entirely. Tyrion may later think he has had the marriage forced on him, but that is when it has all gone wrong. At this point he may be slightly reluctant but the idea obviously entices him. I would say it is this choice that begins his moral spiral downward. He is actively participating in runing the life of a young girl who he had promised not to harm. I am amazed he thought she would trust him after he broke his word to her so horribly.

This is the second time that Sansa was alone in a bedroom with a man, scared and somewhat helpless about what was going to happen next. With the Hound we saw her getting over her terror and reaching out to him in a moment of compassion and empathy that brought them closer together and left her with lingering doubts/feelings. Her bedroom scene with Tyrion, however, is remarkably different in terms of the outcome. This time, even though Sansa can empathise with his feelings – “he is as frightened as I am” – there is absolutely no compulsion or instinct that she feels to comfort this man. What she feels isn’t compassion or concern, but pity, and Martin refers to it as the death of desire. The best way to describe it would be like feeling sorry for someone, but having absolutely no interest in alleviating their pain. If this scene is meant to parallel the earlier one with the Hound, Martin is sending a clear message about which relationship still has the potential to go somewhere.

This is an excellent comparison. Whilst Sansa felt some compassion for Tyrion during the ceremony and eventually knelt for the end part where he kissed her (I note that he moved forward to kiss her, she did not kiss him), she feels no such compunction in this scene. She again displays a remarkabley adult approach to the situation and as said elsewhere, a let’s get this overwith type of attitude. Tyrion on the other hand does not do well in this scene. He had possibly two weeks to think about what would happen between them, and could have decided to defy his father and keep it secret (as he does with Shae) by simply telling her not to get undressed and that he wouldn’t sleep with her, but she must pretend he did so that he cannot be forced to. He could even have cut his finger to provide a blood stain.

This is probably not Sansa’s first time seeing a man’s naked body, but it is definitely the first time for her seeing a naked body that is enflamed with desire for her. Should Tyrion have taken off his clothes? No. Should Tyrion have made Sansa take off her clothes? No. Should Tyrion have asked her if she was frightened when he said that he desires her despite her being a child? No. I’m not without sympathy for Tyrion in this scene, but his discomfort could have been avoided by refusing to participate in the marriage and definitely by refusing to go ahead with a bedding. Fondling Sansa’s breast and then deciding to stop when he sensed her terror was definitely taking it too far. When he gets angry because Sansa has put up her courtesy armor, I have to wonder what he expected. She’s a young girl who’s just been forced into marrying you so that you can lay claim to her family’s home and lands, and you expect her to be open and honest with you? At that moment, courtesy was probably all that was keeping Sansa from breaking down completely.

It is remarkable indeed that Sansa managed to get through the entire day without collapsing. Her ability to recollect herself when Ser Osmund reminds her that she’s a wolf really highlighted how her inner strength and courage have grown. She may not be able to warg, but she’s not lacking in the other ‘wolfish’ attributes of her family’s banner. At this moment, her dignity and nobility of character are what she has to rely on even when grown women like Cersei admit that they would be hysterical and panicking. Even though her resolve slips at times throughout the day, she never lets her grief get out of control and consume her.

Indeed, what we have seen in this re-read is that despite being emotionally isolated, Sansa has not let the horrendous things that have happened to her break her. She has learnt to survive without sinking to utter despair.

The refusal to kneel in order for Tyrion to clasp the Lannister cloak on her shoulders has important symbolic implications for Sansa’s arc. So far, she has received two cloaks, both from Sandor Clegane, and in the second incident we see her choosing voluntarily to wrap herself in his discarded cloak. One act seems to imply acceptance, whilst the other signifies flat out rejection. She didn’t refuse to kneel out of malice or in an effort to humiliate Tyrion (we see how badly she feels afterwards), but rather makes a stubborn decision not to submit herself further to Lannister authority and not to yield in the face of the destruction of all her hopes and dreams. This small act might not have prevented the marriage from being performed, but it did show Sansa’s unwillingness to accept Tyrion as a husband, and negates the meaning of this particular cloak exchange.

I too hope that her resistance symbolises that the marriage was ultimately meaningless. Whilst her relationship with Sandor is something that seems to be built up in the text, I still can’t see it playing out into a future relationship (although it would be nice if it did) other than heroic death or guarding her in a different capacity. What is interesting is that she also took Barristen Selmy’s cloak and both he and Sandor had Kingsguard Cloaks and I wonder if this foreshadows her role as a future Queen. The only two KG members with any honour, has the future Queen use their cloaks to protect herself.

The Tyrells were willing to entertain and be nice to her when they felt they were gaining something in the bargain, but as soon as their plot dissolved, so did their “affection.” The effort shown by Garlan in trying to cheer her up being the notable exception to the women’s behaviour. It is through Garlan that we learn a bit more about Willas and it does seem as though his kindness and goodwill have not been exaggerated. It’s not hard to imagine therefore that Sansa could have found happiness with him as a husband.

I always found it interesting that it is Marg and her Grandmother who are centre frame whilst Marg’s mother seems to be pushed to the sidelines. Similarly whilst the Tyrell ladies almost seem told to ignore her, it is Garlan’s wife (who was teaching Sansa the High harp) who is concerned for her. I do think if she had married into the Tyrells, she would have been treated as a brood mare (to quote Cersei). Olenna Tyrell sounds like the mother-in-law from hell and it would be interesting to see if she even got to raise her own children. Marg certainly seems to be with her grandmother more than her mother.

However, I do think both Tywin and Tyrion were a little delusional about how the northerners would accept Tyrion and his son by Sansa once they tired of Greyjoy rule. While they are mostly very perceptive, they clearly do not have an understanding of the nature of the northerners. Does anyone really think that after everything the Lannisters have done to the Starks, the North would accept a Lannister child as their eventual liege lord just because his mother was Sansa Stark, especially once an event like the red wedding happened when it became pretty obvious that those behind the red wedding massacre (Boltons and Freys) were in cahoots with Tywin Lannister?

Indeed. Also any grandchild of Eddard Stark’s would also be a grandchild of Tywin Lannister. I cannot see the North accepting that bloodline at all. Also at this point, Tywin did not know about Stannis going North if I remember correctly. He also either mis-interpreted Northerners and their attitudes. While in today’s society I would hope people would not be prejudiced against someone with Dwarfism as a president or leader, it is evident that there is a huge social stigma in Westeros. Other houses considered the offer to marry a daughter to Tyrion an insult. This seems like it would be intensified in the north, where we saw in ACOK that other Northerners were saying Bran would be better dead. Also despite being the older boy, Manderley is going after Rickon, not Bran. The Northerners despise any form of weakness. Also they did not seem to take well to Tyrion’s jovial tone. It is a hard land in the North.

Tyrion is entitled to his bitterness that kind of treatment since birth cant make you anything but bitter and to expect him to rise above it like a pheonix out of the ashes when it comes to women is just unfair.

Samwell Tarly receives even worse treatment from his father and complete derision from other men and yet he is not bitter. Also he should realise that he is ugly and this may effect his chances with women. For example if it came to choosing between me and a supermodel, I think no matter how scintillating a personality I might have, most guys would go for the supermodel. Which is what Tyrion does with the choice between Lollys and Sansa.

What I don't understand is why everyone is so happy to forgive Sansa's attitude but not Tyron’s considering he wasn't responsible for her family's downfall and has been alive longer and suffered worse at the hand of his own family and the public in general.

But Tyrion has harmed her family and is continuing to do so by forcing her to marry him. Firstly he did a great thing by building the saddle for Bran, however he knows the reason that Bran is crippled is because his own brother Jaime tried to kill the boy. When he is taken to the Eyrie, he is resentful, despite knowing that the Starks have good cause to suspect the Lannisters of trying to silence Bran. He is covering up a crime. He also knows that his sister’s children aren’t her husbands, so he is complicit to treason. Although he thankfully saves Sansa from the savage beating at the hands of the KG, he has been Hand of the King for nearly 6 months and Sansa has been regularly beaten until then. He could have stopped it sooner. He is aware that his taking Winterfell depends on her brother being killed or permantently imprisoned. That is directly harming her family for his own gain and last but not least, he knows the Starks have the right of it and that Joff is not the true King, and yet supports him fully. He is indeed the greyest of grey characters.

Hmn, I am not sure, I think that Tywin did indeed for Tyrion to rule Winterfell. I think Tywin (rightfully I am afraid) realised that having the Warden of the North being well Tyrion, would be a huge humiliation for the Northerners.

In Winterfell Tyrion would out of sight and out of mind and humiliating some other family (by filling Winterfell up with whores whilst Joffrey was allowed to turn Sansa into his plaything/Tywin had Sansa poisoned).

Indeed. Also given that Tywin himself talks to Tyrion about taking a child North, but not his wife, I think it is obvious that Tywin either expected her to remain a prisoner in KL or as you said she would have died in “childbed”, or some other excuse. Even Robb worked out they’d kill her as soon as she had a child and he wasn’t the brightest spark. The Hizdar / Dany poison incident and Alys fears about being murdered after she has a child, Genna wanting Edmure killed so they have control of the child and secure Riverrun, only confirm that this was probably the plan.

I think that Tyrion was indeed convinced being the lesser catastrophe for Sansa, compared to the rest of the Lannister bunch. And part of his mind had the illusion that he could make things work,, subconsciously hoping for doing it right this time, not letting the next child-girl down like he did with Tysha. While being an abused child himself here I guess he personally felt even more guilt about the gang rape than we modern day readers, well informed about child abuse and manipulation of girls and boys all over the world, would accuse him of. And so he got the twisted idea to do it better this time, straight way into disaster.

With all due respect the text in no way supports any of the above. In fact it categorically states in his chapter, in his own thoughts that he wanted Winterfell. If he had thought the above, I would certainly think more highly of him, but he didn’t. He is also not 13 anymore, but a grown man who should take some responsibility for his decisions.

And then I was shocked as reader: Sansa herself suggests that she might take her clothes off and Tyrion says: "You might as well do", both of them decided to get it over with the inevitable. Why was I so very shocked by that minor detail? No, Sansa does not feel pushed to do the deed because she fears for her life here, nor because she thinks Tyrion would force her anyway.

Apart from he had just made a joke in front of that entire wedding feast about how he was taking her off to rape sleep with her. She thinks herself, what choice do I have? The girl was completely terrified and obviously did not want to do it, but given the fact that they were now married, she felt she had to, hence her reference to a lack of choice.

She decides to AGREE in consummation because she perceives this as her duty now.

If you actually think by not saying outright that she didn’t want to sleep with him, that that equals consent, then I now understand why rape cases are so low in there conviction rate. I am truly appalled at that statement. A frightened terrified girl is led to a room by a man who has just joked about sleeping with her and she feels she has no choice and you think that equals consent?

"She did not know what was expected of her. Should she open her legs for him?" this is so incredibly humiliating but part of that humiliation comes from the fact that Sansa is willing to go along with her own abuse because she thinks that by now Tyrion has a right do to the deed! She does not allow herself anymore to protest, to talk him out of it. Only when Tyrion stops himself and shows her a way out she masters some courage and refuses him not only for this time but forever. And the shocking thing for me was how very much Sansa is brainwashed by her perfect upbringing to go along with her society's expectations in being a lady and a good girl.

She has been told she will be wedded and bedded whether she wills it or not. She has been forced to go through with the marriage despite pleading with Joff, in front of Tyrion, that she didn’t want to. Why in the hell would she expect Tyrion to listen to her. He has already broken his vow to her regarding not harming her and sending her home and he did threaten in Court while dealing with Cleos that how well she was treated depended on Robb |(and this is whilst she was being beaten regularly). Why would she even expect any mercy from Tyrion? It’s not her upbringing, but her knowing as she said that she had no choice.

And no, Tyrion is not the one who does the crime here. But he commits every mistake that can be done:

He talks about a former relationship that has gone wrong, he tells Sansa that he wants her, at the same time he tells her that this is basically wrong. And after he is aware that she is not going to put her courtesy armour away and he realizes that there is no way for them to reach each other emotionally he tries a lousy farce of seduction to get the dirty deed done somehow. I think he may have been technically aroused by the sight of Sansa but this was a mere physical response to a naked beautiful girl, he did not really desire her as a lover, at least not now anymore.

He is part of the forced marriage and knew about it in advance and there was plenty he could have done to avoid it. He has no problem defying his father about Shae. He could have got a secret message to the Tyrells etc. He is part of the group committing the crime: he’s not Tywin, but his hands are sure from clean.

Also he tells her he desires her. In his upcoming chapters he goes on about desiring her. It wasn’t a physical response alone, as he himself thinks and says he desires her. It is in the text.

Edited: For amazing spelling mistakes!

[childofsummer]

I don't blame Tyrion for being so superficial. Sansa is no better herself. These people are a product of their upbringing and I don't think it is fair to be painting Tyrion as a bad person because he is only looking at the outside when it comes to women and marriage. In the last thread I mentioned that Tyrion is more evolved in his thoughts than any other character in the series when it comes to 'the right thing to do' otherwise he would have taken Sansa that night and not cared (and other things). I totally get where his biterness is coming from, no women (except for Tysha) bother to look at him as anything more than a dwarf so why should he view them differently? When he tries he gets kicked in the face, just like Sansa refusing to kneel. You all cheer that effort from her but forget the conversation they had about him not really wanting this either, she humilated him for the same reasons he is so crude about women, they are both angry and bitter about their situations.

Thrice, I agree that Sansa's refusal to kneel sucked for Tyrion. But being forced to marry him sucked for her. I interpret her refusal to kneel as a refusal to subjugate her spirit to the Lannisters by accommodating their (Tywin's) pride, rather than a deliberate act aimed solely at humiliating Tyrion.

@Lady of the North: I adored your post. I especially agree about the Tyrells. I think Margaery and the cousins did genuinely like Sansa, but I also think that their position suddenly became precarious when Tywin married off Sansa. They didn't know what else he knew or what spies were giving him info. Remember, they were relying on Butterbumps to shield their convos, and they then knew that that was not sufficient

They may also have thought that continuing to show interest in Sansa could have harmed her or them because the Lannisters would be quick to exploit any genuine friendship. This in no way lessens the devastating impact their perceived desertion had on Sansa, though. It was horrible to see the rug pulled from under her yet again. That being said, I think Margaery may surface later on as a friend to Sansa.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

It was in the Tyrell's best self-interest to distance themselves from her

[brashcandy]

It was in the Tyrell's best self-interest to distance themselves from her

Here's my issue with the Tyrells: I don't believe they would have been friendly to Sansa had their plan not been in place to marry her to Willas. It was a friendship built squarely on her availability as a bride for the heir to Highgarden. Margaery brought her into the circle and so the Tyrell cousins accepted her for that reason. After Sansa is married to Tyrion the situation is clear. They no longer have any reason to continue being friendly to her. Sure, they may feel sorry for her, and pity her for what has happened, but their interests are no longer vested in her and they move on. I'm not of the opinion that their desertion was necessary because they feared Tywin's wrath. Tywin moved secretly against them so as to prevent Mace from being able to take direct offence. There was nothing preventing the Tyrell women from continuing to spend time with Sansa as she was already married and Tywin would know that he had won that battle. Abandoning her simply revealed that their affection wasn't genuine in the first place.

Moving on.... In Tyrion's chapter we see that he still bears a lot of ill will towards Lysa Tully. I honestly think that the Vale could be one of the places Tyrion heads to on return to Westeros, either to repay his debt to Lysa and/or to reconnect with the mountain clans.

@Rapsie - wonderful post :)

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

distancing one's self isn't always about fear....

you basically said the same thing but in a better way. OK a much better way but I'm at work and distracted (my excuse lol)

they just had better interest elsewhere. it may not have been a matter of "fearing tywin wrath" so much as "meh, we have better fish to fry elsewhere. this is a dead end"

[Wouter]

I totally get that Tywin was counting on Balon Greyjoy and Mance Rayder to fight things out in the North for him, and this seems like a good strategy for the short run. But after that happens then what? Tyrion will be able to swoop in there with his child by Sansa and claim Winterfell and that everyone will accept him? I don't think so, especially when they have made no other attempt to help the North such as by sending men to shore up the Night's Watch. That is why I view his approach her as short sighted.

I think Tywin is counting on the northmen being totally exhausted after suffering a winter under Bolton and Greyjoy, with those 2 warring throughout it and with wildlings on the loose as well. A halfway decent leader, even a Lannister, might seem like a good prospect after you have been "ruled" by sadistic, backstabbing Boltons and plundering/raping Greyjoys. I also would expect Tyrion to be smart enough to not go empty handed; saving people

from starvation would buy some goodwill.

At least, that was presumably Tywin's plan. Stannis and Jon (and Euron, I suppose) made things turn out drastically different.

After the red wedding in which many of the northern houses lost members, it would be very hard for them to accept Tyrion. We have now seen that "the North remembers" (is that a great line or what!?). I think they would also realize that the marriage between Sansa and Tyrion was forced, just as the wedding of "Arya" to Ramsay Bolton was later on.

They would, but they no doubt realised what the Boltons (not to mention, his Frey allies) did at the Red Wedding - the Boltons are presenting themselves as Lannister lackeys to the north, after all. They also must have realised from very early on that Jeyne was terrified of her husband-to-be. Still, they did not dare to oppose Roose Bolton openly, not as long as the odds are against the loyalists.

Tyrion would not have been loved and might well have been assassinated shortly after stabilising the situation (when the north would stop really needing him), but for a while the northmen might have to choose between dying or accepting Tyrion grudgingly.